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The only problem I have with some of your points is that all the cities I've been to that are designed around "efficient" modern standards with nice fast "efficient" arterials are horrible hellscapes, while pre-car designed areas that might have a few big 4-5 lane roads (with a signal every block of course) here and there but are majority 2-lane or 2 lane with parking are totally pleasant. I of course come at this more from an urban design point of view, which is often in direct conflict with traffic engineering ideology, but in nearly every case I've found cities that have a fairly dense grid (doesn't need to be a literal grid, just lots of connections, lots of intersections) seem to not just function better and are easier to get around in, but are far more pleasant than cities designed entirely by traffic engineers with the sole goal of moving cars around fast. It's a chicken and egg situations where traffic planners think they are simply meeting growing demands but by obsessing about cars so much they end up engineering the entire system to be car-centric, which require more traffic engineering to handle all the new cars filling up the new more-efficient car system. I know the traffic engineers can't make the changes, it's mostly political/capital, but I often get a real vibe from many traffic planners or civil engineers that they're just absolutely stuck in the car-centric mindset, as if it's the only reasonable option and nothing else is possible but that's ok because it's actually the best system. I guess it comes with the education you guys get, specially the older school engineers. The idea that an "inefficient" traffic system can actually lead to a better more pleasant city is absolute unthinkable heresy to them, and any real world examples to the contrary are met with defensive ramblings about their city/region/country's exceptionalsm and why that would never work here because it's what the people demand. What's induced demand?! Basically there seems to often be a huge disconnect between many traffic engineers and civil engineering departments and the urban planning and social/economic issues that are all really one and the same issue. Do you think this is a problem as well, if so what could be done about it?
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Feb 6, 2013 02:04
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Speaking of grids, I've always wondered if anyone ever gave hexagons a try for city layout. Sci-fi novels, board games, and nerds of all stripes love hexagons. Are there some planned cities that have tried this, or does it just not jive with our expectations of square buildings, square rooms, etc?
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Feb 6, 2013 02:17
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Volmarias posted:Speaking of grids, I've always wondered if anyone ever gave hexagons a try for city layout. Sci-fi novels, board games, and nerds of all stripes love hexagons. Are there some planned cities that have tried this, or does it just not jive with our expectations of square buildings, square rooms, etc? I think chiclidae posted a theoretical city plan with a hex grid at one point.
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Feb 6, 2013 02:26
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ConfusedUs posted:I think chiclidae posted a theoretical city plan with a hex grid at one point. It was a hex of freeways around the core, not hex grids. I think such a thing would be impossible with the car, and if you built it pre car, pedestrians and horses would form their own desire paths in straight lines. Maybe every other "hex" you could cut straight through the hex to make long straight routes?
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Feb 6, 2013 02:32
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Baronjutter posted:Basically there seems to often be a huge disconnect between many traffic engineers and civil engineering departments and the urban planning and social/economic issues that are all really one and the same issue. Do you think this is a problem as well, if so what could be done about it? That's pretty much what I said. The very concept of a grid doesn't play nicely with traffic engineering. That's why we get stuff like fused grids and nests of one-way streets. FISHMANPET posted:It was a hex of freeways around the core, not hex grids. The only reason it doesn't play well with cars is because turning traffic takes up time. I tried analyzing some signal networks in hex-grid areas, and basically, there's no easy way to coordinate the signals. Now if you had a bunch of automated drivers, you could probably coordinate on a per-car basis and get some very efficient results. Then, you just have to figure out how to build furniture that fits in 120-degree corners.
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Feb 6, 2013 02:59
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Hexes are nice in like games and poo poo because you get 6 equal directions you can travel in from one tile to the other. You're going from tile to tile, you're not travelling along the borders of the hex. Roads in the shape of hexes with buildings inside wouldn't involve any of the advantages of a hex grid. If you made the roads follow how hex's work in wargames and such you'd just have a grid of 6-way intersections surrounding triangular blocks which I guess might be ok for a pedestrian area. This is what a hex grid's travel-paths look like if you wanted to convert hex's to roads. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Feb 6, 2013 |
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Feb 6, 2013 08:19
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Cichlidae posted:Then, you just have to figure out how to build furniture that fits in 120-degree corners. I suppose you could just keep building square(ish) buildings, and use the remaining space for parking, green space, bus stops, etc.
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Feb 6, 2013 16:54
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Baronjutter posted:Hexes are nice in like games and poo poo because you get 6 equal directions you can travel in from one tile to the other. You're going from tile to tile, you're not travelling along the borders of the hex. Roads in the shape of hexes with buildings inside wouldn't involve any of the advantages of a hex grid. If you made the roads follow how hex's work in wargames and such you'd just have a grid of 6-way intersections surrounding triangular blocks which I guess might be ok for a pedestrian area. Because I'm apparently a crazy person, I quickly whipped this up:  Rotate it 45 degrees so you have north-south and east-west routes (or not, if you don't want to). I made this in Paint so I couldn't rotate 45 degrees. The red roads are your major arterials. They still form a square grid. You could pretty easily make it a rectangle by taking out every other red line. The blue lines are local streets. The green lines are either pedestrian routes or just taken out. In the intersections where there's a green line around it, that could be a small park if the routes are still there, or just more developable land if they aren't. I only filled in 5 squares but I think you can figure out what it would look like if you continued. So you've still got a square grid so you don't have single points of failure in your network, but this grid doesn't overflow into neighborhood streets. The local streets have full connectivity without being inviting to people speeding through. Edited to put in a new picture and change the description FISHMANPET fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 6, 2013 |
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Feb 6, 2013 20:31
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I think we're onto something using that hex grid. Yeah take the smaller black lines out, maybe straighten them a bit so when they meet it's only a 4-way intersection. Lets fix the angles at 90 degrees too as that's more efficient. Ohh poo poo we've got a normal grid now because hex based roads are silly.
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Feb 6, 2013 21:09
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You really shouldn't make any 6-way intersections, because accident frequency increases exponentially with the number of legs. And you shouldn't have any adjacent legs at 60-degree angles, especially at unsignalized intersections. Old people can't crane their necks that far. My hex-based network obeyed both of those rules:  
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Feb 6, 2013 23:02
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Hahahaha part of the new I-69 in Indiana is apparently sinking into an abandoned mine shaft. The state seems to think it's not a big deal, but it's just another piece of the huge mess that has been the Indiana I-69 project.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:33
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Maniaman posted:Hahahaha part of the new I-69 in Indiana is apparently sinking into an abandoned mine shaft. The state seems to think it's not a big deal, but it's just another piece of the huge mess that has been the Indiana I-69 project. Same thing happens in Florida all the time, due to the limestone beneath the state. We went through that with PCL during the building of the crosstown expressway elevated lanes in Tampa. PCL got the design/bid, then didn't do proper geotechnical work, resulting in...  Thanks PCL, we'll enjoy the extra lane through downtown that you paid for via lawsuit. Varance fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 13:56
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Cichlidae posted:You really shouldn't make any 6-way intersections, because accident frequency increases exponentially with the number of legs. The solution is obviously roundabouts.
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Feb 7, 2013 14:03
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Cichlidae, are there going to be any more Nutmeg updates? Or has that pretty much gone stale? 
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Feb 7, 2013 14:08
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Volmarias posted:Cichlidae, are there going to be any more Nutmeg updates? Or has that pretty much gone stale? I'm really not sure. I've been super depressed lately, and haven't had the motivation to do much of anything besides sleeping. There's certainly no reason we can't continue if I feel better, though.
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Feb 7, 2013 23:37
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Now when you feel sad, think of how you've inspired the attention to an important life detail in tens of thousands of minds.
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Feb 8, 2013 00:05
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Varance posted:That's what happens when you skimp on geotechnical work in an area filled with old coal mines. But how can we be certain that they didn't intend to build a sweet ramp?
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Feb 8, 2013 02:33
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Welp, this showed up on the new Sim City Facebook page:
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Feb 8, 2013 03:40
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FISHMANPET posted:Welp, this showed up on the new Sim City Facebook page: Someone at Maxis is watching us!  Honestly, I wonder who does read this thread. I know Kurumi's checked it out from time to time, a few bloggers, and, of course, Robin Williams, since we know he's an avid Forums reader. Edit: If any Google or Valve folks are out there, hire me. I'll make the best drat procedural traffic simulations you've ever seen.
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Feb 8, 2013 03:57
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Cichlidae posted:Someone at Maxis is watching us! Make the roads in OpenTTD as spergy as the rails.
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Feb 8, 2013 04:14
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FISHMANPET posted:Make the roads in OpenTTD as spergy as the rails. I'm not sure I could ever do much with OpenTTD, just because there's no background traffic. You could add in some traffic signals or freeway appurtenances, I suppose, but it's not like anyone really plays OpenTTD for the roads. Unless you have swarms of buses and trucks (which, I'll admit, I've done on occasion), you're not going to have anything resembling realistic road traffic.
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Feb 8, 2013 04:34
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Cichlidae posted:I'm not sure I could ever do much with OpenTTD, just because there's no background traffic. You could add in some traffic signals or freeway appurtenances, I suppose, but it's not like anyone really plays OpenTTD for the roads. Unless you have swarms of buses and trucks (which, I'll admit, I've done on occasion), you're not going to have anything resembling realistic road traffic. Traffic Engineer Simulator 2014. You'll be rich.
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Feb 8, 2013 14:27
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dupersaurus posted:Traffic Engineer Simulator 2014. You'll be rich. Please make this happen.  I am always looking for a chance to validate my road rage when it comes to the bad civil planning in my area.
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Feb 8, 2013 14:59
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I've actually made 4 line divided highways in OpenTTD. I did it on the goon server and a bunch of people though it was a pretty novel idea. Obviously the game is made to make trains a better choice, but you can do some interesting stuff with road vehicles if you really want to.
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Feb 8, 2013 16:02
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Cichlidae posted:I'll make the best drat procedural traffic simulations you've ever seen. Clearly we should do a kickstarter. realtalk I'd put some money and time into this. (and my gf is an urban planner as well)
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Feb 8, 2013 18:31
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Cichlidae posted:My hex-based network obeyed both of those rules:
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Feb 10, 2013 12:25
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Mandalay posted:Clearly we should do a kickstarter. realtalk I'd put some money and time into this. (and my gf is an urban planner as well) It really makes me wish I had more programming experience. I've only ever written in Matlab and Visual Basic. By the way, Cities in Motion is great, and I've been playing it pretty much nonstop. My only real complaints are that I can't upgrade stops, and the pavement markings aren't remotely accurate. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:I want to see this built because I want to see how badly conspiracy nuts would freak out. You'd know a thing or two about the Zionist Scum, eh? I'm amazed sometimes about conspiracy theories. I know I posted much earlier in the thread about a local guy who thinks that all mast arm signal heads are a conspiracy to inspire racism. He apparently thought that emailing Barack Obama about the "weeds of hate sprouting up all over West Hartford" was the best way to address the problem. How do you even reason with someone like that?
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Feb 10, 2013 15:43
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CiM 2 is supposed to come out soonish but what I really want is a game which realistically handles freeways 
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Feb 10, 2013 16:03
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I've actually got a professor who keeps saying that the buttons on crosswalks are just there for superstitious reasons, and the buttons don't actually work.
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Feb 10, 2013 17:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've actually got a professor who keeps saying that the buttons on crosswalks are just there for superstitious reasons, and the buttons don't actually work. There's one I've seen where there's a set of lights that by default are always green, and will only ever go red after a crosswalk button being pressed. So I know at least one crosswalk button in the country works!
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Feb 10, 2013 18:01
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've actually got a professor who keeps saying that the buttons on crosswalks are just there for superstitious reasons, and the buttons don't actually work. That's not true at all, but it would save me a lot of time and effort if it were.
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Feb 10, 2013 18:22
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Cichlidae posted:That's not true at all, but it would save me a lot of time and effort if it were. I mentally understand that the crosswalk buttons are just inputs in a more complicated traffic directio system, but the psychological effect of the giant godamned button always makes me feel like when I push it, angels should descend, part traffic, and then carry me to the safety of the other side in their cherubic arms, pretty much immediately. That hasn't happened yet.
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Feb 10, 2013 18:25
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MrYenko posted:I mentally understand that the crosswalk buttons are just inputs in a more complicated traffic directio system, but the psychological effect of the giant godamned button always makes me feel like when I push it, angels should descend, part traffic, and then carry me to the safety of the other side in their cherubic arms, pretty much immediately.
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Feb 10, 2013 18:28
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grover posted:I usually push it, get impatient, and then jaywalk during a break in traffic. Then, a few minutes later, traffic is stopped unnecessarily. Shame the systems aren't smart enough to recognize natural breaks in traffic and trigger on that. Or realize when the people that hit the button already crossed. New crossing installations in the UK do sometimes cancel the sequence if people walk away or walk over early. It's quite cool looking back and watching the "pressed" light go out.
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Feb 10, 2013 18:33
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grover posted:I usually push it, get impatient, and then jaywalk during a break in traffic. Then, a few minutes later, traffic is stopped unnecessarily. Shame the systems aren't smart enough to recognize natural breaks in traffic and trigger on that. Or realize when the people that hit the button already crossed. When I went to Korea they let you press the ped crossing button twice once you got across again to cancel the ped phase. You'd press the button once and wait for the ped signal to turn green, cross, then press the button twice on the other side to turn the ped signal red again. Thought that was pretty clever.
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Feb 10, 2013 18:56
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Over here in Holland at least bicycle path lights with buttons have 'countdowns', usually a number of lights, that start going down after you press the button. It doesn't go down at a steady speed, every few lights seem to correspond to one traffic lights phase. If a phase is skipped, most lights go out at once, if a phase is extended, the countdown may pause for a while. Even so, I don't get impatient as quickly when waiting for a bike light with a red light countdown. I think it's a reasonable solution, and could be used for pedestrian lights as well.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:23
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Jonnty posted:New crossing installations in the UK do sometimes cancel the sequence if people walk away or walk over early. It's quite cool looking back and watching the "pressed" light go out. Wait, what? Really? Bang goes the old pastime of pushing the button and laughing as everyone has to stop for no reason. I saw an adult do it the other day, looking pleased with himself.
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Feb 11, 2013 12:42
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Obviously we need StreetPong. It's not a real thing, but you know, it drat well could be.
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Feb 11, 2013 15:51
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thehustler posted:Wait, what? Really? It doesn't always work. Which possibly makes it more fun - will the crossing notice you running off or won't it??? Who knows??
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Feb 11, 2013 19:16
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Cichlidae posted:It really makes me wish I had more programming experience. I've only ever written in Matlab and Visual Basic. Me too. Programmers make a shitload more and work less hours than small business operators, I've learned. You can upgrade stops in CiM by just building over with the fancier stop. e.g. place a bus stop with shelter on top of bus stop with just a sign.
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Feb 11, 2013 19:27
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