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Mana is a horrible series propped up by nostalgia, great music, and charming graphics. I say this as someone who played all of SoM coop years ago and personally love Legend of Mana. They're janky as gently caress, the gameplay is crappy, and with a few exceptions, most of the series is pretty lovely. The last few games in particular were just awful. Had they somehow infused a game like LoM with some smooth 2d combat and made the absurdly complex subsystems relevant somehow, it could have been incredible, but that never happened. The creators output at his new studio after he left Square doesn't say anything impressive either.
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Feb 12, 2013 22:08
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I don't see how SoM or LoM are any more or less "propped up by nostalgia, music, and graphics" than say, the Final Fantasy main series or Chrono Trigger. FF6 is one of my favorite games of all time, but even I'm willing to admit that the game is wildly imbalanced, buggy as hell, and has extremely broken core gameplay.
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Feb 12, 2013 22:15
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I recall LoM only letting me attack to the left or the right (ala a Final Fight game) which really bothered me for some reason.
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Feb 12, 2013 22:59
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't see how SoM or LoM are any more or less "propped up by nostalgia, music, and graphics" than say, the Final Fantasy main series or Chrono Trigger. FF6 is one of my favorite games of all time, but even I'm willing to admit that the game is wildly imbalanced, buggy as hell, and has extremely broken core gameplay. Chrono Trigger is a legitimately excellent game. Secret of Mana is uninspired and kind of a chore to play solo, but it's saved by multiplayer. Legend of Mana was a unique snowflake. Seiken Densetsu 3 was basically Secret of Mana on steroids, but I never finished it.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:16
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^ My only real gripe with SD3 is how once you hit about the midgame, bosses have tens of thousands of HP. You just sit there wailing on them with no real challenge for ten, twenty minutes until they finally explode.Mega64 posted:I'd definitely argue Legend of Mana is far from mediocre, though it's so wildly different that it's definitely not for everyone. It's certainly a departure from SoM/SD3, though (and in fact was/is considered a side story rather than SD4, which ended up being Dawn of Mana). Still, it's between Legend and SMB3 for my all-time favorite game, and I can rant all day about how much I love that game. Legend of Mana is fun and overall pretty great, but god drat I hate how, because you can do the quests is almost any order, the text is progress-neutral to the point of nobody recognizing you at all. Even within its own quest lines.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:19
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SD3 is tons of fun, especially since you can customize the stats at level up, and the branching class changes. It's like a different game every time!
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Feb 13, 2013 00:08
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:It's like a different game every time! I was just thinking today that this is why I like RPGs so much more than any other video game genre (I really don't play or enjoy any other genre that much). Something new happens every time you play, where if I'm playing Mario Brothers or whatever it's pretty much the same game every time.
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Feb 13, 2013 00:40
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:SD3 is tons of fun, especially since you can customize the stats at level up, and the branching class changes. It's like a different game every time! SD3 is a game with loads of excellent ideas bogged down by a lack of need to use them. The second class change comes way too late, most bosses are too short or too long, none of them are especially hard, and bugs make some character's unique traits not matter at all. To top it off, it has the 90s JRPG issue of "why use the healer when items exist"* since even with the slog fights, if you're going past nine each of the four HP healing items and nine Angel's Grails something is horribly wrong. Not to mention the badly designed progression (Getting to Gnome is a bitch, not having a tally of which God Beasts you've whacked is bad, not telling the player how to get the second class change) or the bad AI (Having bosses counter attack level 2 and 3 techs when there's no way mid-battle to shut them off for your partners? Oh, and your partners will only cast spells if you order them to?). It's a shame because there's a lot of unique things about the game that others could learn from. It's designed for a bunch of replayability due to the party choosing system (Pick three of six, then for each of those pick one of two twice? That's a lot of variation), the characters are not your typical heroes at all (They're more or less all just in it for personal gain), and having three different final dungeons and final bosses is great too. On top of that, it's an action RPG without more emphasis on RPG than action, something you don't see a lot these days. It's a game begging for a remake or a spiritual successor.
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Feb 13, 2013 00:44
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Trasson posted:The second class change comes way too late This is a huuuuge problem with SD3. People bring up the class change feature as being cool or innovative, but in actuality it's not really all that important because the game does very little with it. It'd be like if you only had the Wind Crystal jobs until World 3 in FF5. Why would they make a game that way? Sword of Mana (the GBA remake of Final Fantasy Adventure/SD1) is also legit terrible. There's a pretty good episode of retro games podcast Watch Out For Fireballs that covers why, but it really can't be stressed enough how terrible a job they did making a game with a one-page script into a tedious JRPG epic. It has reams of extraneous dialogue that's all either pointless, nonsensical, or serves to convey character traits and personalities that were conveyed just as effectively by single lines in the Gameboy version. Final Fantasy Adventure, on the other hand, is one of the best Gameboy RPGs. It's overly simplistic and some of the "where do I go next" stuff is obtuse and the plot is incredibly scant, but I dare you to name more than one or two portable RPGs from that era that you can't apply those qualifiers to. The extent to which it's a better game than SwoM is kind of a feat. EDIT: VVVV That's true, although I honestly think it's not even so much about "being for kids" as it is "not being hard". Not every game should be or needs to be hard, and since FF4 (arguably since FF2) these games have been linear, story-driven experiences where the developers clearly intend anyone who wants to put a little time into them to be able to experience the story, visuals, and music. Baku fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 00:51
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victrix posted:I think the internet, as much as any game design changes, have made rpgs and single player games in general a lot easier. YEAH for real. They were talking about this in some FF LP and I mentioned playing Ultima Exodus on NES, which was a major influence on Final Fantasy, and where the bulk of the "gameplay" is really exploring and mapping the dungeons. The combat, leveling, and equipment systems are all so simple and linear that they hardly count as a game. For what it's worth I found Final Fantasy VI and VII pretty hard when I was 10 years old and put no effort whatsoever into understanding the game systems beyond learning magic and vanish-dooming everything. That may be the real audience these games are designed for: kids who are along for the ride, who want to see the spectacle, and are only sort of interested in a challenge.
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Feb 13, 2013 01:00
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I remember the very first time I played FF VII I had so much trouble with the Ancients Temple. Normal enemies would just cause me trouble to no end and I would had to grind so much for the dragon boss, let alone Demon Wall. I think part of the that fact was that I was a dumb kid who didn't understand the benefits/drawbacks of the rows. I'd just stick everyone in the front. Nowadays I still can't believe how often I'd get stuck in that game. It really is pretty easy though, I must admit, I still have never gotten around to beating Emerald and Ruby. Last Emperor fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 01:25
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I honestly think FF8, if it had been balanced properly (or at all), had the best systems in principle for making sure the player could never be up poo poo creek without holding the player's hand too much or being too easy (again assuming that breaking the game is impossible). The draw system gives the player hints on what to expect in a given fight or area, and it can give them tools or hints for beating it without outright spelling it out, like float against the earth summon, for example. Other things like getting skills from GFs gave nice customization options. Junctions should have too, but they ended up just being boring stat boosts. Limit breaks I feel were intended to serve as a comeback mechanism for when you're getting your rear end beat rather than a main damage tool, and likewise popping out a GF to tank for a little bit when needed would have been a good way to handle them. FF8's systems were really great conceptually, but they were neither developed nor balanced anywhere near well enough. I'd love it if they got people to revisit it and rebalance the whole thing, and I could write quite a bit about how I'd do it, but I know that's never going to happen since it's kind of a black sheep, at least outside of Japan.
chumbler fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 02:05
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chumbler posted:and I could probably write quite a bit about how I'd do it, but I know that's never going to happen since it's kind of a black sheep, at least outside of Japan. I'd love to hear about it anyway. I kinda like what 8 tried to do, and I'd like to hear more from people that isn't "Kill everyone involved and salt the earth".
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Feb 13, 2013 02:13
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It will take a lot more than gameplay retooling to make FF8 worth returning to.
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Feb 13, 2013 04:20
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Azure_Horizon posted:It will take a lot more than gameplay retooling to make FF8 worth returning to. Yeah, S-E wouldn't really need to return to it. It's perfect as is.  Also, back when I was a kid going through FFVII for the first time, Demon Wall, the Materia Keeper, and the two-headed dragon on the mountain were my big roadblocks. I was bad at RPGs 
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Feb 13, 2013 04:26
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S-Alpha posted:Also, back when I was a kid going through FFVII for the first time, Demon Wall, the Materia Keeper, and the two-headed dragon on the mountain were my big roadblocks. I was bad at RPGs Exactly the same for me! I remember just constantly using Cait Sith's roulette limit break to kill the dragon. Hoping to get the instant kill one (777s?). I killed him but then he used his death move on me which killed me. I said, "gently caress that guy. I can do it again AND have enough HP to survive." And I did. I lucked that guy to death. I never had a problem with the rest of the game, somehow. Just those 3 encounters.
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Feb 13, 2013 04:50
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Two headed dragon wasn't a tough one for me because, I think, you could get the armlets that'd either absorb or nullify their elemental damage somewhere along the way up to them. Only the quake attack they did really had much effect. It was also one of the few bosses in that game (I believe) that would damage you as it was dying so if you were low on health and had just barely beat it you might end up getting screwed over. Materia Keeper did give me some trouble though, mostly because it just wouldn't cast Trine on me for the longest time. 
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Feb 13, 2013 04:59
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Last Emperor posted:Materia Keeper did give me some trouble though, mostly because it just wouldn't cast Trine on me for the longest time.  The first time I played FF7, I missed the Enemy Skill materia in the Shinra Building. I didn't get one until Junon, and that's like the first E. Skill you're almost guaranteed to run into, especially if you like to run from battles like I used to.
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Feb 13, 2013 05:04
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The White Dragon posted:The first time I played FF7, I missed the Enemy Skill materia in the Shinra Building. I didn't get one until Junon, and that's like the first E. Skill you're almost guaranteed to run into, especially if you like to run from battles like I used to. Same, RPGs got a whole lot easy when I decided to stop running away all the time. FF VII is good in that way, you generally shouldn't need to grind in that game (except for the Costa Del Sol mansion).
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Feb 13, 2013 05:26
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Just completed FFXII today. It's my second time finishing the main story. FF12 gets a lot of criticism for its story (among other things) and although I don't think it's great, I think it's okay. Maybe it's because every Final Fantasy since 7 onward has had a complicated plot that gets incomprehensible at times, but I treasure the plot of FF12 because it's coherent and grounded. Some of the political stuff is thrown at the player a little too quickly, but all things considered I knew what was going between the story's many characters. The main characters are criticized for a few things. Personally, I would have liked it if there was more character to them; the high-quality dialogue and voice acting can only take them so far. They only have presence in cutscenes they are absolutely important in. A lot of the relationships between main cast are hinted at but never explored. It's a real shame because there's obviously something between many of the heroes, but the potential is never acted upon. FF12 pushed the DVD's storage space to its limits but there could have been a few text box cutscenes to help develop the main cast more. There's also the problem that for most of the game the heroes are just searching for crystals and not interacting with the enemy too much. It doesn't provide a lot of tense moments. Now, even though the game is flawed, I appreciate FF12 because it's a classy story. FF12's sense of humour is pretty nice. It's prevalent in NPC conversations, monster designs, and other places. I want to call the game light-hearted but it takes itself very seriously. It just never goes over that line where the storytelling falls into melodrama. Honestly, I'd rather see something like FF12 again than another Toriyama trainwreck.
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Feb 13, 2013 05:30
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FF12 is very close to my favorite FF - it would unequivocally be my favorite with a few tweaks. Though I suppose it's more accurate to say it's one of my favorite games simply because its another Matsuno piece, and I adore all of his games (How I wish Ashley Riot was in FFT: WotL, but we'll probably never see another Vagrant Story. I can be happy with Tactics Ogre PSP at least  )It's very much an aberration when compared alongside the rest of the mainline series, and I can definitely see a lot of reasons why people wouldn't like it. That said, playing it emulated with IZJS patched is a real serious treat. It looks beautiful, you have instant speedup at your fingertips for boring grinding, classes are defined, and that just leaves either plowing the main story in high res, or tackling all the tough optional content at your leisure. Either way a good time. And god drat but I love me some Smith and company translations. It's verbal honey for me. Another thing I know some people don't like, but tough, I'll love my language and you can love whatever it is you love about FF13, you weirdo
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Feb 13, 2013 06:36
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victrix posted:And god drat but I love me some Smith and company translations. It's verbal honey for me. Another thing I know some people don't like, but tough, I'll love my language and you can love whatever it is you love about FF13, you weirdo I will never, ever understand people who hate Alexander O Smith scripts. The most common argument I see against it is that "real people don't talk that way", which is about as ridiculous and facile as it gets; real people do not talk like 95% of characters in fiction, even the best fiction, and real people also do not hurl fireballs. People also like to say it's overburdened with all that fancy language and people say things in too flowery a manner to convey certain character types or emotions, but one of the most memorable lines in Vagrant Story is Ashley saying "I am the reinforcements" which is basically a loving action movie cliche. You simply don't get language like "Too late and to their sorrow do those who misplace their trust in gods learn their fate" in other JRPGs, which are frequently praised simply for being coherent and comprehensible. That guy's a perfect fit for Matsuno, and there are probably a lot of other RPGs that would benefit from having him as a translator or scriptwriter as well.
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Feb 13, 2013 06:56
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I will never, ever understand people who hate Alexander O Smith scripts. What other games was he a part of, out of curiosity? I really liked FFXII.
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Feb 13, 2013 07:03
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^^^^: He started around FF8 iirc. He worked on Front Mission 3 (which was great). Vagrant Story was where things kicked into awesome territory. I believe he's worked with Square ever since then, with a few side projects (Vanquish  )Honestly its so well done it makes me question how good the original story/writing was. He's the difference between 'translation' and 'localization' - his company does the latter the best I've ever seen. FF12 was also a pleasure because I got to hear people speak it, and it was really well done throughout. Made FF13 that much more jarring by comparison (the dialogue, not the VO quality, which was fine). There's a few fine distinctions here though - one is the story - I like Matsuno's stories, period - they've held up across multiple translations and games over many years. The writing is something different. Smith improved the writing quality universally, but the story remains unchanged. It's pretty clear there are some games that have such garbage incoherent stories that no quality of writing or localization could save them, but there are probably a fair number of games with average to poor translations that would be massively improved by a better localization team. I can't say it's entirely the fault of the companies either - finding a company that can do really good localization work for games is probably a bit of a trick. Plus FF12 has the zoological beastiary entries that I believe were added just for the NA version by the loc team, and those are the best 
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Feb 13, 2013 07:04
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victrix posted:Plus FF12 has the zoological beastiary entries that I believe were added just for the NA version by the loc team, and those are the best I adored those. They really alleviated the grindiness of trying to fill it out to get Order of Ambrosia.
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Feb 13, 2013 07:13
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The GIG posted:I'd love to hear about it anyway. I kinda like what 8 tried to do, and I'd like to hear more from people that isn't "Kill everyone involved and salt the earth". It's been a while since I've played the game (and thinking about it is giving me a slight hankering to load it back up), so I may be misremembering some things, but what I'd do fundamentally is put more importance on drawing as something you should want to and need to do often, rather than just drawing each spell up to 100 and then not really touching it again. The main problem I see with it is that it feels really tedious to build up stocks and then leaves you not wanting to burn the stocks because you would then have to replenish them, and the stat bonus from junctioned spells is not something you really want to give up. Also having 100 cures available pretty much completely removes any sense of attrition (which is debatably a bad mechanic anyway, but the game is built around it so it has to stay). To that end, I'd first make draw and GF default, built in commands, expanding the total commands list by 2. I'd greatly reduce the stock cap to something like 25 or so instead of 100 and make draw give standardized results, like maybe 5 per draw to keep the amount of time you do any bulk drawing to a minimum. I would also make casting from stocks a bit more powerful (i.e. allow for multitargeting on top of just being straight stronger) than casting directly from draws (which would be single target only and a bit weaker), because of the time and resource cost of casting from stock. You would not be able to cast junctioned magic, but I'd make some changes to that which I'll talk about in a little bit. The advantage of casting from draws would be that as mentioned you don't pay a permanent cost, and allowing the player to cast from draws means they can never really be in a situation where they don't have what they need for a fight, but it will be harder than having the appropriate stocks. You would be able to cast magic you've junctioned if you do it from a draw, to avoid that potential issue. To go along with this, I'd change junctioning to make it less of a boring false choice. Rather than junctioning to stats specifically, you'd have general categories more like how you junction to attacks or resistances. You'd get one or two slots for attack, magic, defense, ATB filling speed, etc. and there would be pros and cons to which magic is junctioned where. A simple example would be junctioning fire to attack gives you an attack boost, fira gives you more, but decreases defense, etc. If you slot fire to defense, you get a minor defensive boost, fira would give you a larger defensive boost along with a small offensive boost, and so on like that. As I said above, though, junctioning magic would make you unable to use that magic in battle, so there's that cost. There would have to be some redundancy since there are like 30 different spells and you can't come up with something unique and desirable for all of them, but the general idea is being able to tailor a character to what you want them to do. I like how the characters are to a large extent blank slates and wouldn't want to mess with that. I also want to keep customization simple, hence the few categories but clear tradeoffs. Basically I'd want to turn the drawing and stocking systems into something you use often rather than just doing it once and forgetting about it, and junctioning into something that allows for customization, rather than just "Best attack booster is junctioned to attack, best defense booster is junctioned to defense, etc." Having stocked spells that you draw from and can replenish keeps an element of attrition in the game, and keeping the max stock low but the number per draw high means the player is penalized less in time for using them. Being unable to cast junctioned spells makes the player decide whether the stat boosts are worth not having hard hitting magic, or cure spells, or sometimes utilities, if they aren't available to be cast from draws in a battle. Overall FF8's systems feel to me like sort of a prototype for the mechanics in many modern shooters and rpgs, where you can pretty much assume that the player will be at full strength for every encounter, and thus you can balance them around that. Personally, I think that's a good direction to go, and I liked that about FF13 (yes, I'm kind of an apologist for that game as well). I know some disagree on that, though. Limit breaks I have to admit I don't have a good idea for fixing, so I'll have to think on that some more. It's really the only defining feature of the various characters, so you want them to be usable enough to show their differences, but you also want to avoid making them the main thing those characters do, or their main source of damage, particularly because they take too long. Also, action triggers on attacks for everyone, not just Squall. I love action triggers in more turn based jrpgs.
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Feb 13, 2013 08:27
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Smith also did TO: Let us cling together, which has a superb script in his usual style.
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Feb 13, 2013 08:30
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mirarant posted:Smith also did TO: Let us cling together, which has a superb script in his usual style. This was his only script I enjoyed.
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Feb 13, 2013 08:44
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victrix posted:Plus FF12 has the zoological beastiary entries that I believe were added just for the NA version by the loc team, and those are the best "Lo, the mighty cockatrice, proud-feathered sphere, known as much for its ill humor as its dire rotundity."
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Feb 13, 2013 10:52
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victrix posted:FF12 is very close to my favorite FF - it would unequivocally be my favorite with a few tweaks. Though I suppose it's more accurate to say it's one of my favorite games simply because its another Matsuno piece, and I adore all of his games (How I wish Ashley Riot was in FFT: WotL, but we'll probably never see another Vagrant Story. I can be happy with Tactics Ogre PSP at least FFXII is my second favourite FF after FFIX and it does not get enough love. I'd like to echo a lot of these sentiments. XII had the best battle system and environments. I really need to get around to emulating the Zodiac Job system, I recently replayed FFXII on a HDTV and it's muddy to say the least, I remember the textures being really beautiful in XII.
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Feb 13, 2013 13:31
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Hey man just wait until FFX, FFX-2, FFXII HD Collection in 2020 where you can finally play the international edition of those games
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Feb 13, 2013 13:33
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I feel dumb asking this, but is there a way to change the command that is used by a party member during Auto Battle in FF Dimensions? Like can I set a Warrior to always use Strike? Also, is it just me or does the Android version have all these weird word wrap issues for everyone? It was rare until Chapter 2, but now in almost every dialog the text will wrap mid-word.
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Feb 13, 2013 16:07
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I just started playing FF12(International zodiac job system) and after reading about the 12 jobs, I think I'm going to make my party as follows: Vaan: Uhlan Ashe: White or Red Mage? Basch: Knight? or maybe Archer? I'm pretty sure I want Vaan to be an Uhlan to be able to hit fliers easily, and I also plan on only using these 3 characters for my first playthrough. Does anyone have any suggestions, like should I make Ashe a white or red mage and what job should I give to Basch to compliment my party the best?
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Feb 13, 2013 17:50
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Slider posted:I just started playing FF12(International zodiac job system) and after reading about the 12 jobs, I think I'm going to make my party as follows: Well, I'd say Red Mage and Archer- the Red Mage has offensive magic, a bunch of debuff spells, a good physical offense, and shields- all things a White Mage does not. The Archer can hit flyers and has more item lores, I believe, for important things like Remedying (and Nihopoloa abuse). But really, one of the fun things of the IZJS version is making each character/job have strengths and weaknesses, so that you'll actually want to use all 6 characters depending on the situation. I think you're really limiting yourself if you only use 3 characters/jobs. Edit: And in this version, Spears, Poles (with Monks), Handbombs (mostly Breaker) and Rods (White Mages) all hit flyers, in addition to the obvious stuff like bows and guns. Most classes can hit flyers without much trouble.
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Feb 13, 2013 18:44
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Dross posted:I feel dumb asking this, but is there a way to change the command that is used by a party member during Auto Battle in FF Dimensions? Like can I set a Warrior to always use Strike? Set your cursor to Memory in the options, then activate that command. When you activate Autobattle, your character will always choose the last command the cursor was on, which is either Fight (Reset Cursor) or whatever command you used last (Memory). Yeah, it's a bit weird. Also, I've only had the word-wrap glitch happen after exiting to the main menu of my tablet and resuming from ther. I think it'll start working properly if you simply exit in-game and then reload. Hopefully they'll actually fix that sometime, though.
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Feb 13, 2013 18:56
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Okay, next question. Is there a good reason to have a Monk in my party as opposed to a second Warrior or other physical damage dealer? edit: I haven't messed with the Warriors of Darkness yet but my planned Light party is: Aigis: Paladin/Warrior Sarah: Seer/Red Mage Sol: Thief/Bard Dusk: Dragoon/Monk Dross fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 19:10
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Dross posted:Okay, next question. Is there a good reason to have a Monk in my party as opposed to a second Warrior or other physical damage dealer? Monks are great since they have some useful white magic and debuff techs while still being pretty good in a fight. Best all around class IMO.
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Feb 13, 2013 19:15
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Dross posted:Okay, next question. Is there a good reason to have a Monk in my party as opposed to a second Warrior or other physical damage dealer? They each bring something different to the table - remember you can look at the whole license board before making a choice, so feel free to peruse them and see if they look interesting. Barring optional mega bosses, I'm sure you can get through the game with any combination of six jobs, so its mostly just a question of what you want to play with. You'll probably have to improvise along the way depending on what you take, but that's part of the fun - I'd go for at least one 'tank' 'healer' and 'damage dealer' in the archetypes, but otherwise, take whatever appeals to you. And echoing what he said, you'll probably want to use all six characters, since you're limited now, using only three will simply make life harder on you.
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Feb 13, 2013 19:16
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Dross posted:Okay, next question. Is there a good reason to have a Monk in my party as opposed to a second Warrior or other physical damage dealer? Back up white magic and being pretty good at it, not to mention punching people and hitting them with sticks is far more entertaining than some boring sword swinging.
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Feb 13, 2013 19:18
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Dross posted:Okay, next question. Is there a good reason to have a Monk in my party as opposed to a second Warrior or other physical damage dealer? In terms of raw stats Monks are generally superior to Warriors, especially in endgame; the equipment difference tends to even them out with each other. Don't ever use anything even remotely magical on a Monk though because they have the worst INT out of all Jobs (likewise Warriors equally suck at healing). Martial Arts has some good damaging abilities later on, but Enrage and War Cry keeps Warrior/Battle Arts competitive on their own. The GIG posted:Back up white magic and being pretty good at it, not to mention punching people and hitting them with sticks is far more entertaining than some boring sword swinging. Monks have the second-lowest base MND, behind Warrior (14 to 9). They're still bad at healing overall, Chakra is only good because it has a ridiculous base power (only beaten out by Curaja/ga and the secret summon) and free Basuna to back it up.
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Feb 13, 2013 19:45
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