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bamzilla
Jan 13, 2005

All butt since 2012.


Honestly? There is no easy way. People don't like to be told things about parenting that could make them come across as a bad parent. This is definitely one of those things. I would report him anonymously. Anyone could have seen this guy doing this.

The only other thing I'd say to do is maybe nonchalantly mention it to his wife. That will depend entirely on your relationship with her, though.

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VorpalBunny
May 1, 2009

Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog

bamzilla posted:

I would report him anonymously.

Report him to who? The cops? Child services?

One other aspect of this story is that these friends are currently trying to adopt another kid. Anything I would report to authorities might screw up any chance of that. Even though I think he really is putting his kid in danger.

Thus, the pickle. I may have to go to The Wife on this one.

Chickalicious
Apr 13, 2005

We are the ones we've been waiting for.
gently caress that guy. The next time you see him drive off that way, call 911. If they're so cavalier about the most basic safety rules with a toddler, gently caress their adoption hopes. They don't need to have another kid to put at such risk.

Slo-Tek
Jun 8, 2001

WINDOWS 98 BEAT HIS FRIEND WITH A SHOVEL

VorpalBunny posted:

The other day, after playing in a park with a friend and his 2-year old daughter, I was putting my kids in their carseats when I watched my friend drive off with his daughter in his lap. At first, I figured he was just moving his car and didn't want to bother strapping his kid in her carseat for some reason. Then I watched him turn out of the parking lot driveway into traffic.

This isn't the first time he's driven with her out of her carseat. He told me once, casually, that he let her ride in the "front seat" and she loves it. That was going from one parking lot to another, across a busy street, and I wasn't sure how to respond then. I sure as hell don't know what to do now that I know he's done it at least twice and this time for a much longer trip - about 8 blocks across very busy traffic.

I understand the myriad of ways this is dangerous behavior (airbags, car accidents, etc) but I don't know how to address it with my friend or his wife. He is (clearly) a very cavalier kind of parent, often considered reckless in other parents' eyes, but I've never truly worried for his daughter's safety until now. He's a stay-at-home dad and keeps insisting I can leave my toddler with him if I need some alone time with my newborn, but I was iffy about that before I saw him drive around with his own toddler in the front seat.

Any advice on how to handle this? I don't want to cut them out of our lives or anything, since our toddlers are best friends and love to hang out, but I just worry about just how careless he might get with these kids.

You really can't give him poo poo about how he does with his own kid.
But you can definitely offer as aggressively as you need to to make sure that your kid has a car seat installed and strapped in to your satisfaction, and every other rule you prefer. My kids eat what Im eating, watch a little TV, have only nominally parent-over-the-shoulder internet time, are allowed out of my sight for minutes at a time in public, and sometimes the 8 year old can sit in the front seat with a booster. All manner of other slack-rear end parenting somebody else might not approve of. If your kid is hanging out with us and has different rules, explain them, and we'll do what we can to comply. Best if you aren't huffy and snotty and I can't believe you people about it though, generally. Also probably don't call 911.

GoreJess
Aug 4, 2004

pretty in pink
Letting an 8 year old sit in the front seat is way different than driving with a 2 year old in your lap. This isn't about different styles of parenting. This is about safety & someone breaking the law, because trust me it's against the law for a child to not be properly restrained in a car.

There's no way to bring this up without doing some damage to the friendship, but do you really want him literally putting his child's life in danger because you didn't want to step on anyone's toes?

Ariza
Feb 8, 2006
If you're actually a functioning human, talk to him before you call the cops and hope to ruin a family. Do people seriously behave this way with friends? I wouldn't even do that with a neighbor I don't like. It may be a shock to some people, but even very recently car seats weren't really used. Within certain poor communities even today, they're not used more often than they are. It's an attitude people (including myself) are working to change, but it is a reality away from people who seek parenting advice.

Twatty Seahag
Dec 30, 2007
We had a 2-year-old patient die because he was sitting on his mom's lap. They were just driving around the neighborhood and they rear-ended someone who stopped short. He flew through the front windshield of their car and the back windshield of the other car. No one else was injured but the child never even made it to the hospital.

You need to tell his wife or him that he is an absolute idiot for taking such a stupid risk, and if you see him doing it call 911.

hepscat
Jan 16, 2005

Avenging Nun
I don't think this comes down to parenting styles. I get there is resistance to stepping on other parents' toes but to me this is the same as letting a child get into a car with a visibly drunk parent. I think most people would step in and take a friend's car keys in that situation. A young child unrestrained in the slowest fender bender is launched like a rocket.

VorpalBunny, if it were me I would approach it as an uncomfortable conversation but worth a little tension in your friendship. Someone needs to say something before god forbid tragedy happens like Twatty Seahag has seen or they get pulled over and ruin their adoption plans.

:glomp: Gonna go hug my kids now.

Lyz
May 22, 2007

I AM A GIRL ON WOW GIVE ME ITAMS
I would voice my concerns to the wife first, in case she doesn't know about the whole thing, and with any luck she'll give him holy hell for you if you're that afraid of confronting him directly.

I mean goddamn, I can't even imagine trying to drive with a squirmy toddler in my lap that wants to touch everything. Sounds like you're basically asking for a horrible accident. Just out and tell your friend you'd never let him watch your kid because he's an idiot.

Twatty Seahag
Dec 30, 2007

Ariza posted:

If you're actually a functioning human, talk to him before you call the cops and hope to ruin a family. Do people seriously behave this way with friends? I wouldn't even do that with a neighbor I don't like. It may be a shock to some people, but even very recently car seats weren't really used. Within certain poor communities even today, they're not used more often than they are. It's an attitude people (including myself) are working to change, but it is a reality away from people who seek parenting advice.

Yes, and that is why Milwaukee has a higher infant/child death rate than some 3rd World countries. There is no excuse to not do something as basic as strapping your kid into a car seat. It's against the law not to do it. It's inexcusable behavior.

Eggplant Wizard
Jul 8, 2005


i loev catte

Slo-Tek posted:

You really can't give him poo poo about how he does with his own kid.
But you can definitely offer as aggressively as you need to to make sure that your kid has a car seat installed and strapped in to your satisfaction, and every other rule you prefer. My kids eat what Im eating, watch a little TV, have only nominally parent-over-the-shoulder internet time, are allowed out of my sight for minutes at a time in public, and sometimes the 8 year old can sit in the front seat with a booster. All manner of other slack-rear end parenting somebody else might not approve of. If your kid is hanging out with us and has different rules, explain them, and we'll do what we can to comply. Best if you aren't huffy and snotty and I can't believe you people about it though, generally. Also probably don't call 911.

Even as a non-parent, what that guy is doing is horrifyingly different. Letting a little tiny kid ride in the front seat, or on a lap, no carseat no nothing, is thousands of times worse than letting your kids go online without watching. Good god no. I strap my cats' carriers in when I put them in the back seats; I'd never do what he's doing with a child, mine or someone else's or even my greatest enemy's child, and it's upsetting to hear about. You sound like a good non-helicopter parent who takes reasonable safety precautions and is trying to raise kids who are self sufficient and eat grownup food. That sounds good. This? This not good.

The real reason I am popping in here though is to remind people to keep civil with one another. Remember, you're advising VorpalBunny on what to do, not speaking to the guy himself or to someone criticizing you. I do agree that talking to the wife is the most reasonable first step, even if VorpalBunny doesn't know her otherwise. poo poo's not okay. If she brushes it off, then yeah I'd let CPS know or the cops or something.

Slo-Tek
Jun 8, 2001

WINDOWS 98 BEAT HIS FRIEND WITH A SHOVEL

Eggplant Wizard posted:

This? This not good.


Of course it isn't, cavalier and stupid and dangerous. However I don't think going high dudgeon/call the police/I feel feint is the way to approach it if you want your kids to be able to see each other again. If I were doing it, I'd probably go for the common enemy and brotherly advice tack and say "if the cops catch you doing that they will beat you till the candy comes out...people have no sense of humor about this sort of thing"

Though telling the wife...or better getting some other wife to tell his wife, would probably work better.

Slo-Tek fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Feb 11, 2013

Simulated
Sep 28, 2001
Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.
College Slice
"Dude, not putting him/her in a car seat is messed up. I saw this episode of Cops where they were just driving to their friends house down a back road and someone pulled out in front of them and the kid died, even though the dad wasn't wearing a seat belt and walked away. Kids can't take car crashes like that."

Homo sapiens would be better called pan narrans - the story telling ape. Just talk to the guy, tell him a story (irrelevant if the details are true, fact is kids can't survive car crashes nearly as well as adults and they die all the time from lazy parents).

If this guy is a friend or acquaintance you should be able to have a simple conversation about it.

VorpalBunny
May 1, 2009

Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog
Thanks for the advice, everyone! It seems the consensus is to talk to the friend first, and the wife as a backup. My biggest concern (besides the welfare of his child) is messing up our friendship, especially because our kids are so close, but this is too big of a deal to let slide.

He is a rather infuriating dude to argue with most of the time so I don't expect things to go well if I don't phrase this right. I'll probably put it in the context of "if you get busted by the cops it could blow all the money you've put into this adoption thing" instead of "you are a loving idiot for putting your kid's life in danger so casually".

No matter what happens, I don't think I'll be leaving my kid alone in his care anytime soon. It just makes me wonder what other careless stuff he is doing that I haven't seen or heard about yet.

Ariza
Feb 8, 2006
Does anyone have any suggestions for books/websites with a good system for potty training (preferably not German-borne)? My haphazard random approach isn't going very well so far. There seem to be thousands of different books and ways of approaching the situation and I'd like some guidance.

Konomex
Oct 25, 2010

a whiteman who has some authority over others, who not only hasn't raped anyone, or stared at them creepily...

VorpalBunny posted:

Thanks for the advice, everyone! It seems the consensus is to talk to the friend first, and the wife as a backup. My biggest concern (besides the welfare of his child) is messing up our friendship, especially because our kids are so close, but this is too big of a deal to let slide.

He is a rather infuriating dude to argue with most of the time so I don't expect things to go well if I don't phrase this right. I'll probably put it in the context of "if you get busted by the cops it could blow all the money you've put into this adoption thing" instead of "you are a loving idiot for putting your kid's life in danger so casually".

No matter what happens, I don't think I'll be leaving my kid alone in his care anytime soon. It just makes me wonder what other careless stuff he is doing that I haven't seen or heard about yet.

Is he your friend on social networking? Share this video with him.

Crash test: Child in mothers arms.

VorpalBunny
May 1, 2009

Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog
So, I confronted my friend today about his habit of driving with his child in the front seat of their SUV. I worried about how I would casually bring it up, but then as I waited for them to get home I watched him drive up to his house with his daughter in the passenger seat. So, there was my proof it wasn't an isolated incident and is a pattern of reckless behavior.

I brought up the issue to him, and his immediate response was "yeah yeah, I know it's wrong. But it's just so hard to get her in the carseat sometimes. And it's only a couple of blocks. And we're taking side streets, not main roads. And I've only done it a couple of times." The excuses flowed out of him, so it is very clear he knows he is doing something wrong. The problem was, he seemed very casual about it and chose to focus on his view of the government regulating everything, and how his dad did similar things with him as a kid, and people who notice her in the front seat seem amused by it. No amount of warning him about how unsafe it is or how a ticket or arrest would muck up their adoption plans or anything else seemed to get a concrete promise not to do it again. Just a shrug of the shoulders and "Yeah, I know it's wrong."

If he felt a bit more remorseful or concerned or gave my any indication he would stop, then I would back off. So I guess I have no choice but to go to his wife about this. I see her tomorrow morning for a playdate. Wish me luck!

Ben Davis
Apr 17, 2003

I'm as clumsy as I am beautiful
I'm really glad you're acting on it, VorpalBunny. I know it's hard to confront people.

hookerbot 5000
Dec 21, 2009
Good luck. It's horrible having to talk about other peoples parenting choices because we all know what it's like to be judged on some stupid unimportant parenting thing, but this really isn't one of those things that is a difference in style and you are doing the right thing by trying to make sure they realise it.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

If the car seat isn't user friendly maybe they can look into getting an easier to use car seat?
My 3 year old sits in a Britax Frontier 85 and it's really easy to get her in and out of. If the kid is big enough, maybe have them look at something like that. An airbag deployment will kill a 2 year old kid. I'm zero tolerance when it comes to the use of car seats, I have a park in my neighborhood, never even leave the housing development, but my kids get buckled in properly every. single. time.

VorpalBunny
May 1, 2009

Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog
I told the wife today and she was pretty pissed. I think she always knew he was doing stuff like this, but to hear someone else call him out on it hopefully makes it a VERY REAL situation that she deals with tonight. I anticipate some kind of email or text from my friend about ratting him out, and we have another playdate scheduled for tomorrow that might be awkward. Oh well.

My biggest concern is that he still keeps doing this, just out of eyesight of me or the wife. I've done what I can, and if I see it happen again I'll confront them and then call the cops, I guess.

Thanks again for the advice. I would have acted on this sooner but I wasn't sure if I was overreacting or being unreasonable. Nice to know my instincts were right, and I won't hesitate to act next time. I really hope he stops being an idiot and his kid stays safe.

Lyz
May 22, 2007

I AM A GIRL ON WOW GIVE ME ITAMS

VorpalBunny posted:

I told the wife today and she was pretty pissed. I think she always knew he was doing stuff like this, but to hear someone else call him out on it hopefully makes it a VERY REAL situation that she deals with tonight. I anticipate some kind of email or text from my friend about ratting him out, and we have another playdate scheduled for tomorrow that might be awkward. Oh well.

My biggest concern is that he still keeps doing this, just out of eyesight of me or the wife. I've done what I can, and if I see it happen again I'll confront them and then call the cops, I guess.

Thanks again for the advice. I would have acted on this sooner but I wasn't sure if I was overreacting or being unreasonable. Nice to know my instincts were right, and I won't hesitate to act next time. I really hope he stops being an idiot and his kid stays safe.

You did the right thing. I trust my husband and even though he does things differently with Chris and I can accept that, I would be FURIOUS if I found out he was doing something so blatantly dangerous with our child and I would want to know.

Hopefully this is the wake up call your friend needs, although I fear he'll just probably be all like "my wife's a nag and my friend's a backstabber" because some people have to be in the right no matter what. :sigh:

bamzilla
Jan 13, 2005

All butt since 2012.


skipdogg posted:

If the car seat isn't user friendly maybe they can look into getting an easier to use car seat?
My 3 year old sits in a Britax Frontier 85 and it's really easy to get her in and out of. If the kid is big enough, maybe have them look at something like that. An airbag deployment will kill a 2 year old kid. I'm zero tolerance when it comes to the use of car seats, I have a park in my neighborhood, never even leave the housing development, but my kids get buckled in properly every. single. time.

I'm thinking the guy means more it's a struggle to get the kid in. My kid went through a phase where she would stiffen up and scream and flail if you tried to put her into a carseat. I don't know how, but she'd manage to hulk the gently caress out on me and it was a serious struggle. So glad that phase is over ;( However, I'd never, ever think twice about NOT putting her in her carseat.

Wojtek
Oct 17, 2008
My 8.5 month year old has a new habit of waking up and screaming until you pick her up, to which she falls asleep until you put her down again, when the screaming starts again. Also happens when putting her to sleep for the night.

My wife and I have differing opinions on how to handle this:

Me - let her cry, she'll wear out and fall asleep on her own
Her - pick her up until she sleeps, put her down and pray that it's the 1% of the time she'll stay asleep

I think she is conditioning our daughter to scream out until she gets picked up. I don't know what to do.

dreamcatcherkwe
Apr 14, 2005
Dreamcatcher

Wojtek posted:

My 8.5 month year old has a new habit of waking up and screaming until you pick her up, to which she falls asleep until you put her down again, when the screaming starts again. Also happens when putting her to sleep for the night.

My wife and I have differing opinions on how to handle this:

Me - let her cry, she'll wear out and fall asleep on her own
Her - pick her up until she sleeps, put her down and pray that it's the 1% of the time she'll stay asleep

I think she is conditioning our daughter to scream out until she gets picked up. I don't know what to do.

You could try a third alternative. There's 'the no cry sleep solution' book you could read. You could try different routines. I wouldn't do the cry it out thing you want to do. Maybe meet in the middle, try a new routine and compromise. Good luck.

AlistairCookie
Apr 1, 2010

I am a Dinosaur
Wojtek, I would also really recommend the No Cry Sleep Solution book. Not all babies (many? I dunno) will wear out and fall asleep with the crying--certainly not in the few minutes you may be expecting her to. Also, at 8 months old, she's really just a baby still. They go through sleep things all the time, and it sounds like she is going through A Thing. The No Cry book talks about how to take small steps to gradually back them out of the undesired routine and into a more positive one, without forcing a baby to scream needlessly. (Think about it from her POV--all she knows is she woke up and wants Mommy or Daddy. You guys are her everything, and she's just a baby. So she cries for you, and you don't come. How frightening! So how is a frightened and upset baby going to go to sleep?)

Good luck, sleep issues ARE a bitch, but this too shall pass. And then it will be something else. Anyone here will attest to that! ;)

Chickalicious
Apr 13, 2005

We are the ones we've been waiting for.
If it's a new thing, do you think she could be sick or have teeth coming in? Ear infections are tricky things to figure out sometimes.

Wojtek
Oct 17, 2008
She just got over being sick for 2 weeks, has 2 teeth and probably more on the way, recently went to the pediatrician and no ear infection. I'll see if I can find that book.

Ben Davis
Apr 17, 2003

I'm as clumsy as I am beautiful

Chickalicious posted:

If it's a new thing, do you think she could be sick or have teeth coming in? Ear infections are tricky things to figure out sometimes.

Seconding this, I just took my little guy in for his well-child checkup. He's been screaming on and off in the night the past few weeks and it took us a while to figure out teeth were coming in because they were way in the back and not really visible. I didn't figure out until he bit me while I was cleaning his mouth with a washcloth :)

Helanna
Feb 1, 2007

The sleep thing is a killer :( My daughter is 8 months old now, and while she was an awesome little sleeper in the early days, since 6 months she has been up many times every night. And I mean sometimes every half hour. The only way she goes back to sleep is if I breastfeed her. So I did, every time she woke up, thinking it was just a phase. Now almost 2 months later and she is so drat used to getting fed loads of times through the night that I think it's just routine now. I'm beyond exhausted, which is particularly hard at the moment when I am looking to start work again; doing job interviews after almost no sleep isn't a great way to perform at your best.

My husband and my doctor both think she's just in the habit now, and I need to do some "tough love", i.e. cry it out. I let my husband take care of her last night, only feeding her at bedtime, then 11pm, 5am, and when she got up at 7:30am. I had earplugs in, in a different room, and he was under strict instructions to repeatedly go to her to reassure her, roll her onto her back again (she rolls onto stomach and is stuck, raging). Apparently she took two whole hours to stop screaming last night, from 1-3am, and I feel like a horrible mother now :( Especially as my husband insists that I have to do the same again tonight to get her used to settling herself.

Not really sure what to do with her at this stage. Letting her cry for 2 hours, even with reassurance and picking her up etc. just seems really cruel. But feeding her every time isn't sustainable.

dreamcatcherkwe
Apr 14, 2005
Dreamcatcher

Helanna posted:

The sleep thing is a killer :( My daughter is 8 months old now, and while she was an awesome little sleeper in the early days, since 6 months she has been up many times every night. And I mean sometimes every half hour. The only way she goes back to sleep is if I breastfeed her. So I did, every time she woke up, thinking it was just a phase. Now almost 2 months later and she is so drat used to getting fed loads of times through the night that I think it's just routine now. I'm beyond exhausted, which is particularly hard at the moment when I am looking to start work again; doing job interviews after almost no sleep isn't a great way to perform at your best.

My husband and my doctor both think she's just in the habit now, and I need to do some "tough love", i.e. cry it out. I let my husband take care of her last night, only feeding her at bedtime, then 11pm, 5am, and when she got up at 7:30am. I had earplugs in, in a different room, and he was under strict instructions to repeatedly go to her to reassure her, roll her onto her back again (she rolls onto stomach and is stuck, raging). Apparently she took two whole hours to stop screaming last night, from 1-3am, and I feel like a horrible mother now :( Especially as my husband insists that I have to do the same again tonight to get her used to settling herself.

Not really sure what to do with her at this stage. Letting her cry for 2 hours, even with reassurance and picking her up etc. just seems really cruel. But feeding her every time isn't sustainable.

Read The No Cry Sleep Solution. http://www.amazon.com/The-No-Cry-Sl...+sleep+solution

:( I would not do cry it out. Your 8 month old does not need tough love. She does not understand why you aren't responding to her.

Helanna
Feb 1, 2007

Well he didn't just leave her for 2 hours to cry it out, per se, he went in repeatedly to check on her, stroke her, shush her etc. and try get her to calm down but literally nothing stops her screaming except boobs. Pretty sure it frustrates him being completely unable to make her happy; it's actually the first night he's had to try though, every night since she was born I have been there for her while he snores blissfully!

I just bought the book on my kindle now so will have a read tonight and hopefully it will help. She's such a happy baby in the daytime, I don't want her being so upset at night :(

Chickalicious
Apr 13, 2005

We are the ones we've been waiting for.
Have you considered cosleeping? That's how I made it through. My kid would not sleep without the boob and I was not going to let him cry, so he slept in the bed with us. He could nurse, I could sleep, and nobody had to get out of the bed multiple times a night.

Lyz
May 22, 2007

I AM A GIRL ON WOW GIVE ME ITAMS
It was around that time that I had to finally kick Chris out of the bed because him waking up every two hours to nurse was becoming detrimental to the both of us (he was spending most of the day sleeping because he got so little night sleep, and I was wrecked).

No Cry is great for establishing a bedtime routine and security items but I found the actual method didn't really work for Chris, and we had to do the crying and repeated soothing. You figure out pretty quick when they're just complaining and when they get really upset, and you just scrap everything when they get really upset.

Helanna
Feb 1, 2007

Tried cosleeping already, she actually doesn't like it much, and wakes at the slightest movement from me, then freaks out. Definitely sleeps better in her cot, but I guess that's because she's always been in a cot since birth (well, moses basket then cot). I was too nervous to cosleep in the early days, but now that she's more mobile it worries me less, but she isn't interested! Plus I guess it's not really a habit I want to form anyway; I like having my bed to myself, so I don't really want her developing the need to be in bed with me all the time. Especially with hopefully going back to work soon; the job I'm interviewing for atm would include shifts that won't have me getting home til around 11pm, so she's got to be okay without me for a few hours at night.

bamzilla
Jan 13, 2005

All butt since 2012.


Just wanna point out that cosleeping doesn't always mean in the same bed, but can mean the same room. We cosleep, but my son's cosleeper is next to the bed much like side-carring a crib.

Helanna
Feb 1, 2007

Her cot is at the end of the bed where I sleep; she never sleeps in a room on her own at night. I guess I just consider "cosleeping" to be bed sharing as that's the context it's mostly used in.

Cathis
Sep 11, 2001

Me in a hotel with a mini-bar. How's that story end?
Moving on over from the Preggo thread because baby's 3 months old now.


Introducing Aibhilin(Evelyn) Grace Kelly. Named after my grandmother and great-grandmother. Hobbies include throwing up, kicking, giggling, and smiling. She's a pretty drat good baby, if she's crying it's because she's hungry, she pooped her diaper, or because she's thrown her pacifier somewhere- or because we put her in the torture chair known as The Carseat. Otherwise, she's just the happiest baby ever. She generally sleeps through the night now, and is otherwise the best baby a first-time mom could hope for :)

With all that out of the way, I didn't mention one thing guaranteed to make her cry- tummy time. She HATES IT. It's apparently the worst thing ever. I feel so drat guilty every time we do tummy time and she just cries and screams and wails. I keep hoping she'll suddenly get the trick of pushing up with her hands but mostly she just flails around like she's swimming still. Is this normal, and does anyone have any tips to help her "get it"? We have a special tummy time mat with a chest support now, and that doesn't seem to make her any happier except that she doesn't smash her head into the floor when flailing around. Worst 20 minutes of my day.

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA
Our 12.5 week old also hated tummy time at first. Two things that really helped were putting a rolled-up towel under his chest (play around with how fat you want the towel to be) and naked tummy time (we're using cloth diapers which are pretty bulky). Even then, he would only tolerate it for about 30 seconds to a minute at a time at first, before just slumping down and trying to eat his fist. After a few weeks of building him up though, he'll now tolerate it for 10 minutes or so. It's a physical exercise for them, so just like for an adult you have to build up their endurance over time.

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Chickalicious
Apr 13, 2005

We are the ones we've been waiting for.
It doesn't have to be 20 consecutive minutes. You can do 5 here or 5 there. Or you can wear her and get the same benefits there too.

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