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Serious Frolicking posted:She murdered a helpless man in cold blood because he didn't do what she wanted. How many times does she need to literally stab someone in the back to be considered a villain? It feels more like she killed him because she got really defensive about him throwing her betrayals in her face. Which doesn't make it any better, but I just wanted to make that point. If anything, it makes her even more villainous.
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Feb 11, 2013 01:30
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Serious Frolicking posted:She murdered a helpless man in cold blood because he didn't do what she wanted. How many times does she need to literally stab someone in the back to be considered a villain? Being a horrible, villainous person doesn't strictly make her an antagonist.
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Feb 11, 2013 01:35
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Anyway, if "good"-side characters can die, wonder what that means for the rest of Baam's friends. All I can think is that ManGator dying would probably be incredibly bad-rear end. 
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Feb 11, 2013 01:50
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pnumoman posted:Koon is almost certainly not dead, as we don't even get the hint of a body anywhere. Dan, on the other hand, is most certainly deader than dead. They'd have to be some extenuating-rear end motivations to make brutally stabbing a helpless dude because he called you out on betraying your friends into a not-completely-villainous act. That being said maybe they exist and Rachel is an anti-hero instead of a compelling villain. Sarcophallus posted:Being a horrible, villainous person doesn't strictly make her an antagonist. Yeah but it also doesn't do much to convince people that she's actually an anti-hero. So either there's something really convincing going on here that we readers don't know about yet or maybe dude didn't completely understand what anti-hero means. Honestly I'd prefer if it's the first one, but right now, from what I've seen in the comic, I can't fathom what her reasons would be that would explain her behavior in a way that makes her an anti-hero. e: I think I'm dumb above here and misusing anti-hero. Aren't anti-heroes protagonists by definition, so maybe that's what is going on here? If she is supposed to be a protagonist, then maybe what SIU meant when he said she was an anti-hero to Baam's hero was that we had two people who entered the tower, and Baam kept heroic qualities such as kindness and goodness while Rachel ditched that poo poo in an instant and decided to live life for herself an nobody else. copy fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 11, 2013 |
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Feb 11, 2013 01:51
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copy posted:e: I think I'm dumb above here and misusing anti-hero. Aren't anti-heroes protagonists by definition, so maybe that's what is going on here? If she is supposed to be a protagonist, then maybe what SIU meant when he said she was an anti-hero to Baam's hero was that we had two people who entered the tower, and Baam kept heroic qualities such as kindness and goodness while Rachel ditched that poo poo in an instant and decided to live life for herself an nobody else. I'm under the impression that she's meant to be a protagonist, yes. It's come up in a few blog posts, so I may look through those later. Mangapirate release is out: http://mangapirate.net/Tower_of_God/131/4
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Feb 11, 2013 03:07
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Sarcophallus posted:Being a horrible, villainous person doesn't strictly make her an antagonist. If she's the cause of everything terrible that happens to the protagonist, she is an antagonist. She is literally the single greatest plot force that acts against Baam, the protagonist. She believes she kills him, which lands him in with FUG. If, as was suggested, SHE is the one that reached out to FUG here? Then just as Baam is getting over his time with FUG and making new friends, she takes acts that lead to more of his friends dying. She is only dropping a piano on Baam's new puppy away from being totally against every positive moment in his life. Even FUG has a clear, and understandable, justification. Baam is pretty much the only person they have that *can* take steps against the order of the Tower. Practically everyone else is bound to it's rules. If they want to overthrow the corrupt system, they have no choice but to make him into the perfect weapon. It doesn't make what they do any less evil, but nor do they pretend they aren't evil. Rachel on the other hand is an insane psychotic that lies and murders everyone that gets in her way, all to....what, see the stars? And she doesn't acknowledge for a second she did anything wrong. Which doesn't mean he *can't* humanize her motivation, I just can't imagine what positive end she could have to mitigate her cartoonish level of evil.
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Feb 11, 2013 03:25
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In regards to the anti-hero thing, I just want to remind everybody (or inform people for the first time), that to someone familiar with Korean society, the Tower itself and the ranking system is a pretty obvious criticism of Korean society in general. I won't go into it in much detail, because I'm tired and the post would be long as poo poo, but suffice it to say that the obsession with going up the tower, the crazy trials, and the increasingly lavish rewards for advancing up the tower make it very evident to the majority of the audience that the whole comic itself is a commentary of the society they live in. As such, copy posted:e: I think I'm dumb above here and misusing anti-hero. Aren't anti-heroes protagonists by definition, so maybe that's what is going on here? If she is supposed to be a protagonist, then maybe what SIU meant when he said she was an anti-hero to Baam's hero was that we had two people who entered the tower, and Baam kept heroic qualities such as kindness and goodness while Rachel ditched that poo poo in an instant and decided to live life for herself an nobody else.
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Feb 11, 2013 03:52
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Everything Rachel has done has been to her benefit, to the detriment of anyone who gets in her way. If she has motivations aside from self-interest, I would certainly like to know what those are.
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Feb 11, 2013 04:09
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Oh, it almost certainly is social commentary. And Rachel is explicitly a contrast to Baam. Baam makes social connections for their own sake, and they end up benefiting him because he builds a community of people who care about each other around himself. Rachel, on the other hand, uses people and is entirely dependent on the patronage of people whose favor she earns through betraying people who trust her. In this issue, we learn that she not only lacks self-awareness, but flies into an actual murderous rage when her behavior is criticized. At this point, an actual behavioral shift will have to accompany any revelations about her motivations to do anything but explain why she's such a terrible, broken person. Koon is a pretty typical antihero, though. He's manipulative and egocentric, but has plenty of redeeming qualities and frequently jokes about his villainous tendencies.
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Feb 11, 2013 04:31
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I just love the final scene. "I have done nothing wrong." You know one FEELS it, and the other is just saying it.
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Feb 11, 2013 05:07
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I just started reading this yesterday and I'm already hooked, but sometimes the perspective differences are insane. In one panel Koon is like shin-high to Rak, and in a later one Rak's in a hospital room with them and he's barely a foot taller than Koon. What the Sam Hell's goin on?
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Feb 11, 2013 06:54
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Soooo how is Rachel going to keep climbing now? She is weak in all areas except being an exceptionally good liar and backstabber. It's not like FUG will help her climb the tower, especially after seeing her being a total bitch by stabbing someone tied up on the floor for calling on her bullshit.
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Feb 11, 2013 07:03
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MegaCharger posted:Soooo how is Rachel going to keep climbing now? She is weak in all areas except being an exceptionally good liar and backstabber. It's not like FUG will help her climb the tower, especially after seeing her being a total bitch by stabbing someone tied up on the floor for calling on her bullshit. Are you forgetting? Rachel is an Irregular too. FUG wouldn't give that up.
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Feb 11, 2013 07:39
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Aesop Poprock posted:I just started reading this yesterday and I'm already hooked, but sometimes the perspective differences are insane. In one panel Koon is like shin-high to Rak, and in a later one Rak's in a hospital room with them and he's barely a foot taller than Koon. What the Sam Hell's goin on? A lot of it is just for effect. Rak should about twice as tall as Koon, but beyond comedic effect, SIU just wasn't all that great with perspective early on. That said you should avoid this thread until you're caught up, a lot of rather important stuff could easily be spoiled for you.
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Feb 11, 2013 07:48
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Yeah it's cool, I'm on like chapter 30 of volume 1 at the moment but I wasn't planning on sticking around in this thread unless I had a question till I catch up. I thought I might've missed some dialogue and Rak can change size at will or something.
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Feb 11, 2013 08:09
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Cave Adapted posted:Are you forgetting? Rachel is an Irregular too. FUG wouldn't give that up. Not to mention that it was FUG she cut the deal with in the first place. And she's currently working with two of their moles, one of which is a doctor who poisoned a teammate using cold medicine. I'm sure they give a gently caress.
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Feb 11, 2013 14:33
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Hodgepodge posted:Not to mention that it was FUG she cut the deal with in the first place. And she's currently working with two of their moles, one of which is a doctor who poisoned a teammate using cold medicine. I'm sure they give a gently caress. Are those two actually with FUG? In the second link posted her (Mangapirate?), they said they were just hired by FUG.
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Feb 11, 2013 15:39
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Safe and Secure! posted:Are those two actually with FUG? In the second link posted her (Mangapirate?), they said they were just hired by FUG. The second link is correct; the two of them are mercenary rankers that have been hired by FUG to infiltrate Koon's group and to take him out when FUG gives the order. The word the lady uses is a specific form of 'hire'/'request' that is only used when referring to professionals, so they are professional mercenaries as opposed to ordinary rankers that have been swayed by money or power or intimidation by FUG.
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Feb 11, 2013 16:20
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Seems a bit short sighted to turn someone into the strongest person in the tower while killing all their friends in the process
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Feb 11, 2013 16:33
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I must've missed something cause I'm a few chapters after Ho died and I'm only now finding out he was supposed to be male. Seriously thought he was a girl the entire time. Edit: Apparently Yu Han Sung is male too?? I think I'm going to just stop assuming genders from now on. Aesop Poprock fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Feb 12, 2013 |
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Feb 12, 2013 05:16
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Cave Adapted posted:Are you forgetting? Rachel is an Irregular too. FUG wouldn't give that up. Actually I'm pretty sure Rachel is a Regular since she seemed to get pulled into the tower in the normal way. Baam somehow followed her in by forcing his way through.
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Feb 12, 2013 05:53
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The_Angry_Turtle posted:Actually I'm pretty sure Rachel is a Regular since she seemed to get pulled into the tower in the normal way. Baam somehow followed her in by forcing his way through. That's not quite right. So a regular doesn't get in on the first floor at all - their equivalent of the first floor test is to be chosen by Headon. We see this with Teddy and Ho, when Headon comes to them and takes them into the tower. An Irregular is anyone who isn't chosen by Headon - they have to open the door themselves. Baam did this - and Headon was even expecting him. Rachel snuck in through the door that he opened, effectively, which caused Headon to go on a vicious rant about how pathetic and disgusting she is. Baam is an irregular, Rachel is a sort of irregular of irregulars.
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Feb 12, 2013 06:00
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Scott Bakula posted:Seems a bit short sighted to turn someone into the strongest person in the tower while killing all their friends in the process They are absolutely positive they can control Baam once he essentially dethrones god as is everyone with a similar plan in fiction.
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Feb 12, 2013 06:16
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I seem to recall SUI clarifying that Rachel is an Irregular at some point. Technically, an Irregular can kill Zahard because they are not native to the Tower, so it really doesn't matter. Also the other family heads piggybacked on Zahard's opening the door to the Tower. A few updates ago, SUI referred to Zahard as "she" in his postscript. Was that a typo in the translation, or did he slip a major setting detail to us?
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Feb 12, 2013 08:31
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Fast scan is out. E: No one responded to this, so: Hodgepodge posted:A few updates ago, SUI referred to Zahard as "she" in his postscript. Was that a typo in the translation, or did he slip a major setting detail to us? That blog post was in reference to one of the princesses, Maschenny Kun Zahard. At least that's how I think that's spelled. Sarcophallus fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 18:40
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Aaah, that makes sense. I thought that would be a rather offhanded way to drop that sort of bomb.
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Feb 17, 2013 19:09
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Yes. Yes. YES. Instead of Viole's team meeting Koon's team meeting the OLD team at the workshop battle, it'll be Viole's team led by Koon meeting the weird new FUG team led by Viole meeting the OLD team at the workshop battle.
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Feb 17, 2013 19:13
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Those teddy coats are still cracking me up.
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Feb 17, 2013 19:52
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Viole clearly has had enough of FUG's poo poo. (That and their plan makes even less sense now. They not only want to make him a god who hates them, they're preemptively killing off their leverage on him  ) The "make Viole more badass" part of the plan is clearly working, though. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 20:24
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Hodgepodge posted:Viole clearly has had enough of FUG's poo poo. It'd make a lot of sense if bunny-ears isn't exactly in the loop about a lot of things regarding FUG, hence why she's kind of loving things up.
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Feb 17, 2013 20:34
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Yeah, looks like not every outsider FUG hires is competent? Gonna be great when blondie tells Koon that "Viole" is fighting for FUG because his friends are all being watched. Also when Koon finds out that he's been betrayed and two of his teammates are dead. Or when Koon meets up with the assassins who tell him that the fast guy killed birdie and Rachel or something, but that they valiantly killed him before he could get Koon, too.
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Feb 18, 2013 00:03
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Koon knows about Apple betraying him, and Apple told him to hire the other guy. They're going to be long gone by the time he gets back.
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Feb 18, 2013 02:12
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Oh, you're right, I think I remember him saying something to that effect. Do you remember which chapter it was in, or what else happened in that chapter?
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Feb 18, 2013 02:19
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Didn't it say somewhere that these guys were hired by the slayer who wears the mask? He's got to play a more prominent role soon and certainly doesn't care about Baam's friends.
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Feb 18, 2013 02:56
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Safe and Secure! posted:Oh, you're right, I think I remember him saying something to that effect. Do you remember which chapter it was in, or what else happened in that chapter?
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Feb 18, 2013 04:36
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So I was thinking more about how Rachel could be considered sympathetic. I think it relates to the themes that were brought up at the end of the 20th Floor chapters. The wiki page for Lurker (who also used others cold-heartedly) puts it well:quote:Having been victimized by Prince's father and forced into his company, Lurker believes that in the Tower there is only prey and those who prey on them. Therefore any evil done to another is no cause for anger or resentment, as everyone destroys other's dreams in pursuit of there own. When Wangnan forgave him, he is left visibly stunned and unsure how to react. In a society which is viciously competitive and yet which places enormous pressure on people to conform to social norms and roles, many people may find it hard to separate rejection of one's prescribed place in society and all the obligations and emotional ties which keep them from fulfilling their own needs from wholesale rejection of other people. After all, if moral values and intimate social bonds have been used to hurt you for your whole life, it may be necessary to reject those things (except as tools) in order to assert your own value and power. What seems obvious to us, that you can instead form your own set of values and establish social bonds on those terms, is not necessarily obvious to people who find themselves in this position. And for many of them, it may seem pointless to think about those things when they still lack the power (social, economic, or otherwise) to resist the hegemonic social order. So, from Rachel's point of view, she may simply be using other people ruthlessly because she is seeking basic forms of security which we take for granted. Obviously, this is not laudable, but it is understandable, especially if it is a response to trauma and abuse. Also interesting, from the wiki entry for Rachel: quote:According to SIU, both Rachel and Baam are deeply connected. To Rachel, Baam was the night and her darkness and to Baam, Rachel was his star and his light. It's unknown if Viole's new name, which also implies "star" in Korean has any foreshadowing or implications for their future relationship. Apart from the Taoist and possibly Luciferian imagery, Rachel is said to be "afraid of the night (Baam)." It's already been speculated that what she is afraid of is the social bond and obligations that accepting his affections would entail, because she see those things as tools which have been used to hurt her, not freely chosen and positive ends unto themselves. In the sense that she rejects and uses others to protect herself, she isn't doing anything wrong. But it is certainly a broken reaction to abuse and/or hegemonic power. Edit: On a completely different note, am I the only one who didn't realize that Ran is Koon's half-brother? Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Feb 18, 2013 |
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Feb 18, 2013 05:31
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Aesop Poprock posted:I must've missed something cause I'm a few chapters after Ho died and I'm only now finding out he was supposed to be male. Seriously thought he was a girl the entire time. Yup they're both male. And don't worry, mistaking a character's gender even happens in-universe!
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Feb 19, 2013 22:47
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I just caught up today and now I have to play the agonizing wait game. drat, Rachel is a stone cold psycho
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Feb 20, 2013 20:20
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So I've got a question: did anything ever come of Baam getting that A-rated pocket from Evan Edrok in the first few chapters? I was sure that would've come up at some point in part one but I don't remember it ever being mentioned again. I'm sure it's still a lot higher than anyone else would have as an E-rank Regular but it seems like it'd be less effective as something impressive now that he has all this other stuff going for him.
Aesop Poprock fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 21:13
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Aesop Poprock posted:So I've got a question: did anything ever come of Baam getting that A-rated pocket from Evan Edrok in the first few chapters?... Nothing yet.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:04
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