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Elite posted:Considering your character design analysis of Geddoe emphasized his immense competence I was kinda surprised to see him have an "Eh, whatever" attitude to missions. Or at least he has that attitude when his booze money isn't on the line. I'm pretty sure any mage in a Suikoden game with a Thunder/Lightning Rune has the right to be nonchalant about life. Anything that bothers him/her tends not to live very long. The only real concern is whether or not there's enough entertainment around 
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Feb 27, 2013 00:50
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Elite posted:Considering your character design analysis of Geddoe emphasized his immense competence I was kinda surprised to see him have an "Eh, whatever" attitude to missions. Or at least he has that attitude when his booze money isn't on the line. Competence doesn't always equate to pro-activeness. You'll see him shine as a leader as soon as things actually start happening, though. Won't be long now. 
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Feb 27, 2013 00:56
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So my issue with magic is that for this game they add in that magic can actually hurt your allies too. If you use a big splashy AoE magic attack (which all the best ones are) and your party members just happen to be in range, you're hosed--you have to hurt them. The game doesn't allow you to at all move your characters, so you are stuck with having them arranged however it is the computer or the enemy's attacks decide to move them. I first noticed it in battles with Geddoe's team, since this is the first time you really start using a lot of magical attacks.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:11
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RentCavalier posted:So my issue with magic is that for this game they add in that magic can actually hurt your allies too. If you use a big splashy AoE magic attack (which all the best ones are) and your party members just happen to be in range, you're hosed--you have to hurt them. Which is why the Lightning line is pretty awesome in this game, with its smaller focus and the third spell basically trivializing most encounters with a strong enough mage.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:22
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RentCavalier posted:So my issue with magic is that for this game they add in that magic can actually hurt your allies too. If you use a big splashy AoE magic attack (which all the best ones are) and your party members just happen to be in range, you're hosed--you have to hurt them. Yeah, but that doesn't become much of an issue later on when most characters actually learn to get out of the way right before the attack hits. I guess we're opposites here though because I love that about this game. Although it seriously sucked at times, it made sense.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:22
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Eruza posted:Yeah, but that doesn't become much of an issue later on when most characters actually learn to get out of the way right before the attack hits. I guess we're opposites here though because I love that about this game. Although it seriously sucked at times, it made sense. It is the principle of the matter--as well as that certain locations have different arena shapes for battles, meaning that a certain upcoming location is REALLY GOOD at getting you in prime position to just firebomb yourself to hell and back. The fact that certain magics don't have this problem doesn't remove the problem from existence, nor preventing it from being an issue, especially in situations where you can't control who is in your party, or, y'know, About fifty percent of the friggin' game
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Feb 27, 2013 01:39
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They also should probably have made magic a bit more obviously specialized again. In I and II, Fire's deal was that it was always about the AOEs, while Lightning tended to hit individual enemies or columns for high damage. They sorta messed with that this time around. Lightning's still got more focus than fire, though. Wind is...well, it's a grab-bag, as is Earth.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:25
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From a gameplay standpoint, I can see where you are all coming from with wishing they'd handled the runes differently, and to a certain point I agree with you. If there were no friendly fire on the Fire Runes, I probably would use them a LOT more. But I actually quite like how the elemental runes were designed around the plot. The wild nature of fire and Fire Runes, for example, comes up as a plot point. I can't talk about this too much, of course, since it'd be traversing into spoiler territory, but you'll see when we get further I guess. A lot of the AoE-hurting-your-pals dealios are solved when characters get really good with their rune, as well. If Joker had, let's say, and A in Fire magic, he'd be able to get off his fire spells before the others were able to move into range. At this point in the game, and probably for a while yet, this will still be a problem.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:49
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Geddoe is just jaded as gently caress and is way too old for this poo poo. I love him
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Feb 27, 2013 03:12
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yokaiy posted:Fire Runes! My issue is just that fire does the same thing as lightning, just with friendly fire enabled. I don't recall too much of a damage difference between the two lines, and without the ability to manually position your allies, you have to get lucky with who enemies decide to go after in order to use fire's AOE for rounds after the first. It's not like fire is unusable, but you're driving a manual shift to lightning's automatic
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Feb 27, 2013 03:16
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Genaro posted:My issue is just that fire does the same thing as lightning, just with friendly fire enabled. I don't recall too much of a damage difference between the two lines, and without the ability to manually position your allies, you have to get lucky with who enemies decide to go after in order to use fire's AOE for rounds after the first. It's not like fire is unusable, but you're driving a manual shift to lightning's automatic Well, not quite. Fire is mostly AoE, while Lightning is mostly single target. Also point for point I find that Lightning does more damage anyway because it only targets one at a time. It's not just Fire's friendly fire-ness that makes Lightning the best damage magic in this game.
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Feb 27, 2013 03:19
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That's really the crux of the matter. While Fire Spells have better AoE, Lightning spells are rarely just single-target in this game. You can still clear crowds with them fairly well, which intrudes on Fire's niche even before the friendly fire aspect kicks in. Overall this is the worst showing in the series for the Fire Rune, which is hilarious. Mind, they can be effective on the right characters and with the right preparation, but even then most of those characters can use Lightning almost as effectively with a lot less effort.
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Feb 27, 2013 06:39
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CmdrKing posted:That's really the crux of the matter. While Fire Spells have better AoE, Lightning spells are rarely just single-target in this game. You can still clear crowds with them fairly well, which intrudes on Fire's niche even before the friendly fire aspect kicks in. One of the things about this game is that a few runes do that. They're supposed to offset the tremendous damage potential by having your guys be in the line of fire as well. Risk management is an important part of Suikoden III. Having a healer on hand to pick up the mess is always, ALWAYS important.
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Feb 27, 2013 14:32
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UmbreonMessiah posted:One of the things about this game is that a few runes do that. They're supposed to offset the tremendous damage potential by having your guys be in the line of fire as well. Risk management is an important part of Suikoden III. Having a healer on hand to pick up the mess is always, ALWAYS important. Unless your healer is in the path of the blaze--or WALKS INTO IT--and you have no means of controlling where they go or where they are. This should be carved into every single game designer's skull: If the position of my party in an RPG matters to being hit by attacks, and I am unable to control where my party members are positioned, then you have hosed up and I hate you.
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Feb 27, 2013 16:09
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RentCavalier posted:Unless your healer is in the path of the blaze--or WALKS INTO IT--and you have no means of controlling where they go or where they are. Shadow Hearts had a similar system with random movements, but I believe that a) every turn was specific to a person and so no one moved between choosing and casting and b) there was no friendly fire.
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Feb 27, 2013 17:26
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While Fire Runes seem to be a hot topic (hahahaha  ) in the thread, I feel like this is a good time to put Joker's rune to a vote.Bold your answers yes or no. Probably won't actually take effect for a couple updates either way, but our group here has a severe lack of Water Runes, so if it gets voted out, I'll be giving Joker a Water Rune to replace it at earliest convenience. e: Nevermind. Keeping the pun there for great (read: awful) justice. yokaiy fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 17:32
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I vote
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Feb 27, 2013 17:49
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Don't worry, I'll only be doing this for a couple of them. Pretty much just Joker and who gets the Pale Gate Rune. VVV e: Hmm. I thought this was a pretty good idea, but I guess I can take down the vote. I'll think on it a bit longer, I guess. Thanks for the advice, though! This is true, but having two healing runes in such a large group actually really improves their utility. yokaiy fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 17:51
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Yeah, I don't know if putting it up to voting is necessarily a good idea and you really should just do what you want there. But having saying that, I usually just let Joker keep his fire rune and just stick water on Queen when she gets another slot (I don't think saying that she'll get another slot is technically a spoiler?). It does take time though, and I generally avoid AoE fire spells that could hit the party early on because of that so take this as you will. But you get access to another rune with a healing ability soon after this part, so does it really matter? Just wondering.
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Feb 27, 2013 18:15
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I also agree about not putting up to vote, but I'd be disappointed if Joker isn't a fire mage. Actually, this is related to the skill system. While previous games had elemental affinity (some mages do more damage with certain elements), I think, it's more obvious here. And it's so great. Some might have a higher cap for a magic skill, while another learns faster, but has a lower cap. Some might have extra skills that enhance their magic of choice in certain ways. No two mages are the same in this game, a feeling I don't always get in other Suikoden games. This has a downside. I can think of at least one character that has a permanent skill for a rune he can't use. (Though he'd be killer with the True Rune of B-Ball.) I think, had this battle system been refined in later games, you might even had improvements to runes (Wind!  ) or even have characters that break the Suikoden mold. Like someone with S rank Sword Magic, and a lot of magic slots, even though they lack extra rune slots or high Magic.tl;dr version. What other Runes are Joker good with?
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Feb 27, 2013 19:29
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Joker has middling ranks in the other elements, sans being mediocre at Lightning. One thing that we haven't seen in great detail is how skills work, so I don't want to take up too much time, but we've seen already that characters have different numbers of slots for skills. What you might not notice until it's pointed out is that some skills are fixed, as in they cannot be removed from the character, while others are variable. While there are other types of magic beyond the five elements in this game, the skills to use them (and just to get it out of the way, NEVER use magic without training the skill rank in this game. It is NOT worth your time.) are fixed skills, which won't be unlocked until they gain some levels. Joker additionally has a good rank in one of these, but it won't be relevant until basically the end of the game for this reason. So if you want him as an attack mage, you pretty much have Fire. He's an adequate healer if you want, and his ranks in various combat skills are acceptable, so it's really where you need holes plugged in Geddoe's party. Related, personally I find Queen pretty effective as a wind mage. Her skill is fairly average, but it's her best one, and when you look at her stats she's really more of a mage. Although she does get one of the key combat skills so she too can work either way. That said, there's an upcoming fight where I've found Wind on Queen basically the simplest way to get the win, but perhaps there's better ways I never played with.
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Feb 27, 2013 19:53
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Took down the vote. I'll figure out what to do with him later. He'll probably keep his Fire Rune for a while, at least, because there's no real good spot to stop and go rune shopping in the next couple of parts. Joker is fine with pretty much anything you give him, minus Lightning, which really you shouldn't give that to anyone but Geddoe in this party anyway. CmdrKing posted:One thing that we haven't seen in great detail is how skills work, so I don't want to take up too much time, but we've seen already that characters have different numbers of slots for skills. Hmm, I guess I haven't gotten into that much detail with skills yet. Maybe I'll have an interlude on them, so I can go more in-depth with it than I had in updates. CmdrKing posted:Related, personally I find Queen pretty effective as a wind mage. Her skill is fairly average, but it's her best one, and when you look at her stats she's really more of a mage. Although she does get one of the key combat skills so she too can work either way. That said, there's an upcoming fight where I've found Wind on Queen basically the simplest way to get the win, but perhaps there's better ways I never played with.  Holy poo poo, why have I never thought of that? Wow, I feel dumb. That fight is really hard, too. Man, a Wind Rune would have made everything better. WELL you guys will be seeing the wrong way to do that fight efficiently! 
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Feb 27, 2013 20:44
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I forget if Wind of Sleep really works, but just having an attack spell on her to throw at the fight is enough.
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Feb 27, 2013 20:51
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yokaiy posted:Holy poo poo, why have I never thought of that? Wow, I feel dumb. That fight is really hard, too. Man, a Wind Rune would have made everything better. That fight? Hoo boy, this'll be interesting! I was never able to beat it, but at least it's not required and actually makes you lose out on a boss fight in the bonus chapter if you win, if memory serves.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:16
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Ohhhh, that fight. gently caress, yeah, I always skipped that poo poo when I discovered I could. I didn't KNOW I could, and two game overs taught me a lot about this game's loving slow-rear end dialog and unskippable cutscenes. drat it, I'd forgotten all about that bullshit. Thanks a lot. ...although, I've never actually WON that fight. I have no idea how you are expected to, so it should be interesting.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:46
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Really? It expects you to grind out Geddoe's Lightning skill more than anything else. If you do that you have a fighting chance, but what you give Queen does boost your odds considerably to be sure. But yeah, like a lot of battles int eh game it's there to win for dedicated players, and you aren't expected to actually win it. Doing so just gets you little bits of plot earlier than you otherwise would. Although personally, I find there's only two battles like thsi that are really nasty, one in Geddoe's second chapter and the other in Hugo's. Hugo's in particular is horrifically stacked against you for multiple reasons, and Geddoe's just has a "gently caress it, you lose" moment.
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Feb 28, 2013 07:11
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If it weren't for Queen and Wind Magic, I never would have beaten this game. It becomes indispensable during a fight later in Geddoe's story and she's the only one on the team that's any good at it.
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Feb 28, 2013 15:03
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I literally have no idea what fight you guys are talking about that's so hard. Geddoe nukes everything with lightning; problem solved. I remember Hugo and Chris having some optionally-winnable fights against the game's primary antagonists (that's not a spoiler, right? It's a video game and the heroes are of course going to fight the baddies at some point), but I don't remember anything tough with Geddoe.
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Feb 28, 2013 16:42
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FairGame posted:I literally have no idea what fight you guys are talking about that's so hard. Geddoe nukes everything with lightning; problem solved. Geddoe gets some tough optional fights, yes.
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Feb 28, 2013 17:27
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There was a spoiler here. It's gone now. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 1, 2013 11:00
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Erm... I would strongly, strongly recommend editing out that entire second paragraph because that is a massive spoiler.
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Mar 1, 2013 11:03
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Yeah. That's an enormous spoiler for someone who'd never played the game right there.
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Mar 1, 2013 12:19
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Jeedy Jay posted:Some stuff. As we haven't even heard mention of any True Runes other than from my blurb yet, I'd sort of like you to edit out that second paragraph. Sorry to be a bother, but we're operating under a no-plot-spoilers policy here, and I'd say that qualifies as one.
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Mar 1, 2013 15:08
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yokaiy posted:As we haven't even heard mention of any True Runes other than from my blurb yet, I'd sort of like you to edit out that second paragraph. Sorry to be a bother, but we're operating under a no-plot-spoilers policy here, and I'd say that qualifies as one. Heck I'd argue the entire post is somewhat spoilery, but I'm a crotchety old bastard like that.
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Mar 1, 2013 16:48
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I wonder how Geddoe gets involved in this war. Wonder if he trips the attack on Chris, somehow.
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Mar 2, 2013 00:32
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Not exactly. He is connected to the mystery though. And if he wins his first plot battle well, you'll see.
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Mar 2, 2013 00:39
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I'm hoping to get the boss battle done for this upcoming update, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to. Might be too long that way. The update is on it's way. I've been a bit slow working on this one because other things needed doing, but it's coming along. However, I'm hoping we'll get to another page before I post it, since the spoiler still hasn't been edited out, and I don't want those who just read the updates to accidentally see it while images are loading. So, on that note, let's discuss things or something! I don't know, share your thoughts on stuff. Maybe I'll type out some more character blurbs or something, if there's anyone you all want to see especially. I know there was a request for the Saint Loa Knights, so maybe them. Hell, maybe I'll doodle some stupid things if you've got any requests there, too. Just want to get this off the page, really.
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Mar 2, 2013 01:53
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I would love to see some art of the Saint Loa Knights.
Testekill fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 02:13
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Could possibly be a stupid request but could you doodle Fubar trolling Joe for...some..reason I don't even know. The thought of that sassy griffon getting Joe riled up amuses me and you're quite fantastic at drawing.
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Mar 2, 2013 02:42
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 They sort of ended up more as just bickering rather than one trolling the other... whoops. Might try again later. Doodling the Saint Loa Knights for you next, Teste, but I'm gonna go eat dinner first real fast. 
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Mar 2, 2013 03:17
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