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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

bettsta posted:

As usual, excellent write-up! This is one of my favorite episodes, at least from Season 1, because I think this is the episode that turned Wee-Bey around for me. It's weird to think about how coldly he treated the dead party girl, but when it comes to his fish..."You got Kimmy, Alex, Aubrey and Jezebel in here somewhere. I don't know, she think she cute."

Yeah, it's kind of sad in a way that this is the only place that Wee-Bey can really be human and show love - to animals that can't think or communicate. It's also one of the few times in the show when somebody just talks about the importance of beauty - part of Omar's despair of Brandon's death is that he was beautiful, Wee-Bey notes that the fish don't cause any harm, all they do is be beautiful. Both are enamored with an ideal, something that in a way symbolizes innocence and humanity (even in the case of Brandon being a stick-up man too), though Wee-Bey's choice is one that can't talk back or risk disappointing him.

Also I find it interesting that for all Avon's paranoia and Stringer's heartless elimination of potential liabilities, neither one of them ever considers for even a moment the possibility of Wee-Bey turning on them. There is never a moment where they think,"poo poo, Bey is a potential liability, he has to go," - if they ever say anything about him it is that he is "a rock", he's probably the one person outside of themselves that they trust. Not that he doesn't make mistakes or go against their rules sometimes, but they know he would never turn on them, deal with the police or work with another crew - he's the most dependable of their crew, and is rewarded for that.

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Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

Jerusalem posted:

Yeah, it's kind of sad in a way that this is the only place that Wee-Bey can really be human and show love - to animals that can't think or communicate. It's also one of the few times in the show when somebody just talks about the importance of beauty - part of Omar's despair of Brandon's death is that he was beautiful, Wee-Bey notes that the fish don't cause any harm, all they do is be beautiful. Both are enamored with an ideal, something that in a way symbolizes innocence and humanity (even in the case of Brandon being a stick-up man too), though Wee-Bey's choice is one that can't talk back or risk disappointing him.

Also I find it interesting that for all Avon's paranoia and Stringer's heartless elimination of potential liabilities, neither one of them ever considers for even a moment the possibility of Wee-Bey turning on them. There is never a moment where they think,"poo poo, Bey is a potential liability, he has to go," - if they ever say anything about him it is that he is "a rock", he's probably the one person outside of themselves that they trust. Not that he doesn't make mistakes or go against their rules sometimes, but they know he would never turn on them, deal with the police or work with another crew - he's the most dependable of their crew, and is rewarded for that.

Bird probably fit in that category too. That's why the organization is so crippled coming into season 2 and beyond- all the reliable guns are gone, and what you get is the new generation loving up left and right. Slim Charles was the only reliable one, though Bodie and Poot probably would've come along in time if the organization had survived.

hiddenmovement
Sep 29, 2011

"Most mornings I'll apologise in advance to my wife."
You guys are far, far too hard on McNulty.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

hiddenmovement posted:

You guys are far, far too hard on McNulty.

How so? He's an alcoholic, a bad father, worse husband and an incredibly selfish and arrogant person with an obsessive personality. He's also a good friend, a talented detective, a better patrolman and somebody with tremendous potential to be a good person who frequently, infuriatingly fucks things up for himself and those around him. He gets credit where it is due but rightfully attacked for the stupid things he does.

He's the reality (as much as a tv show can be realistic) of the "loose cannon cop who plays by his own rules and gets the job done" - that kind of character is great on television but in "real life" he would be absolutely infuriating to have to deal with on a personal and professional level, and his loveable quirks would be masks for deep-seated emotional problems.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Mar 25, 2013

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 18 hours!

Jerusalem posted:

Also I find it interesting that for all Avon's paranoia and Stringer's heartless elimination of potential liabilities, neither one of them ever considers for even a moment the possibility of Wee-Bey turning on them. There is never a moment where they think,"poo poo, Bey is a potential liability, he has to go," - if they ever say anything about him it is that he is "a rock", he's probably the one person outside of themselves that they trust. Not that he doesn't make mistakes or go against their rules sometimes, but they know he would never turn on them, deal with the police or work with another crew - he's the most dependable of their crew, and is rewarded for that.

You know, until you pointed all this out, I used to wonder what Cutty's early life and career were like, but I like the parallel too much now...

grading essays nude
Oct 24, 2009

so why dont we
put him into a canan
and shoot him into the trolls base where
ever it is and let him kill all of them. its
so perfect that it can't go wrong.

i think its the best plan i
have ever heard in my life

Jerusalem posted:

How so? He's an alcoholic, a bad father, worse husband and an incredibly selfish and arrogant person with an obsessive personality. He's also a good friend, a talented detective, a better patrolman and somebody with tremendous potential to be a good person who frequently, infuriatingly fucks things up for himself and those around him. He gets credit where it is due but rightfully attacked for the stupid things he does.

He's the reality (as much as a tv show can be realistic) of the "loose cannon cop who plays by his own rules and gets the job done" - that kind of character is great on television but in "real life" he would be absolutely infuriating to have to deal with on a personal and professional level, and his loveable quirks would be masks for deep-seated emotional problems.

It should also be noted that while McNulty is the most frequent character to try and go up against the institution and lose, it's made abundantly clear that he has perhaps the most selfish motives for doing so of anyone on the show (aside from Stringer maybe, who tried to reform the drug game purely for his own security.) All he ever wants to be is "the smartest gently caress in the room" and have people recognize him for it, and this motivation never really changes in 5 seasons. To me this is the thing that makes him a nasty character more than anything else.

hiddenmovement
Sep 29, 2011

"Most mornings I'll apologise in advance to my wife."

quote:

How so? He's an alcoholic, a bad father, worse husband and an incredibly selfish and arrogant person with an obsessive personality. He's also a good friend, a talented detective, a better patrolman and somebody with tremendous potential to be a good person who frequently, infuriatingly fucks things up for himself and those around him. He gets credit where it is due but rightfully attacked for the stupid things he does.

Most of the comments are geared towards emphazising his negative points rather then his positive ones. Every good thing he does is written off as his drive to be the smartest gently caress in the room, and every bad thing he does is blown up beyond it's ramifications. Nevermind that he's the first on the scene to Kima's shooting, delivers her CPR and accompanies her to the hospital (he's covered in her blood, he at least needs a change of clothes before he can return to work). Nope, he's 'wallowing in self pity' and 'doesn't have the poo poo to handle a moment'.

McNulty, for all his faults, is still one of the very few cops thats willing to even try to change the horribly unjust, dysfunctional system he works within. Almost every other officer is pretty complicit in it's failings. I don't think his character gets enough credit for that. Maybe it's me but I think there's a great deal of nobility in a sisyphean struggle.

grading essays nude
Oct 24, 2009

so why dont we
put him into a canan
and shoot him into the trolls base where
ever it is and let him kill all of them. its
so perfect that it can't go wrong.

i think its the best plan i
have ever heard in my life

hiddenmovement posted:

Most of the comments are geared towards emphazising his negative points rather then his positive ones. Every good thing he does is written off as his drive to be the smartest gently caress in the room, and every bad thing he does is blown up beyond it's ramifications. Nevermind that he's the first on the scene to Kima's shooting, delivers her CPR and accompanies her to the hospital (he's covered in her blood, he at least needs a change of clothes before he can return to work). Nope, he's 'wallowing in self pity' and 'doesn't have the poo poo to handle a moment'.

McNulty, for all his faults, is still one of the very few cops thats willing to even try to change the horribly unjust, dysfunctional system he works within. Almost every other officer is pretty complicit in it's failings. I don't think his character gets enough credit for that. Maybe it's me but I think there's a great deal of nobility in a sisyphean struggle.

I chalk this up more to basic police instincts than anything.

The guilt he has over his selfishness nearly getting a fellow cop killed sure doesn't last long beyond this season in any case.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

He doesn't accompany her to the hospital, he goes and sits off away from the crime scene in a daze (perfectly acceptable, he's in a deserved state of shock), gets taken to the hospital by Rawls (who gently shepherds him everywhere) and leaves there to go to the Detail and get drunk. While Freamon, Sydnor, Carver and Herc get active to deal with the stress/horror, McNulty immediately retreats into himself, and when he does decide to take action it is in aggressive, destructive ways designed to make him feel better. He tries to strong-arm Levy, damages his precarious relationship with Rhonda, and openly and defiantly drinks on duty in front of Daniels.

All of these are understandable and human reactions, but they're indicative of McNulty's nature which is that of a person who thinks of himself and his own interests first. The thing is that McNulty is on a journey, his character's arc very much resembles that of a junkie's (and I think deliberately), his self-destructive behavior eventually begins to override everything else until he sees bottom rushing up at him and finally makes an effort to get "clean". Like a junkie, he stumbles and falls along the way and ends up diving back deep into his addiction, but by the end of the series he has finally created a situation that has forced him to either get clean or die. He hits bottom, he ruins himself but in the process he lays the groundwork to finally walk away and be the better person we keep seeing hints of being there. The job is all he has, but it isn't what he needs. He's warned again and again that the job won't save him, he sacrifices his marriage, his kids, and his other significant relationships with women in pursuit of a job that doesn't love him back and won't give him the sense of completion he is looking for. He realizes that too late to go back to the happy equilibrium he once found (in season 4), but there is the potential of something better there for him.

There are times that McNulty absolutely deserves credit, and he'll get them when they come up, but in season one I feel the point of his character is more to showcase the faults and follies of the typical "loose cannon" archetype.

EvilTobaccoExec
Dec 22, 2003

Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

hiddenmovement posted:

McNulty, for all his faults, is still one of the very few cops thats willing to even try to change the horribly unjust, dysfunctional system he works within. Almost every other officer is pretty complicit in it's failings. I don't think his character gets enough credit for that. Maybe it's me but I think there's a great deal of nobility in a sisyphean struggle.

From a discussion we had in the other thread...

EvilTobaccoExec posted:

McNulty is a pretty big piece of poo poo. Time and time again we see him being natural police and seemingly loving the job to do "right", but at the end of the day it's not about that and only for feeding his ego.

Did it suck that Valcheck closed down the port case because it ended up getting big enough that Frank Sobotka was gonna walk? Yeah, and that's McNulty and the Barksdale case to a T. In the end of season one there was a chance to go way farther by trading up the FBI who can actually have the pull to bring it in but want to leverage it for the political targets behind the scenes; but it's something unthinkable to McNulty since the people he's chasing and wants to dominate would end up mostly skating. The end result? Barksdale skates by anyway on some petty poo poo which is probably a similar enough sentence to what he would have ended up with from the FBI who could have put way more pressure while also getting these way higher targets, many of whom are still walking free by the end of the series after a few other failed strikes. Valcheck was pretty good police too, just better at politics; same level of rear end in a top hat.

Season 3 is another huge example of why he's a piece of poo poo and a lot of the characters lay it flat out for you. Pay attention to the things Freemon, Sydnor, Kima, and Daniels say after being pushed onto the Barksdale case again mid-investigation. It's not some bullshit when Daniels says he can't trust McNulty and wants him out the door the second that case ends; the same personal vendetta has McNulty chasing the Barksdales again with backdoor scheming to get Major Crimes pulled off another big important detail that was responsible for a poo poo ton of other murders. It's months of work made entirely useless by walking away, but it doesn't matter to McNulty because he's chasing a different target, even if all the others were dedicated to that job. He let one group of murders go free for a different group now, the bosses agree (as Daniels puts it) because the Barksdales are currently dropping bodies while the other target has stopped after winning their war, but it's not about justice or the job and it's sure not right.

hiddenmovement
Sep 29, 2011

"Most mornings I'll apologise in advance to my wife."
Wait, hold on a second, weren't you guy in the other thread that took umbrage when I said that Tony Soprano was just a flat out sociopath that was extremely skilled at acting like a human being, claiming him to be a far more nuanced character? And here you are flat out describing McNulty as nothing more then 'a pretty big piece of poo poo?' Holy hypocrisy batman.

And how on [/i]earth[i] do you come to the conclusion that Valchek is 'good police'? I'm watching season 2 right now, Valchek is horrible police. Petty, careerist, self indulgent, misguided, vindictive, and out of touch. He spends most of his time checking prank photographs of his police van for fingerprints for gods sake.

quote:

There are times that McNulty absolutely deserves credit, and he'll get them when they come up, but in season one I feel the point of his character is more to showcase the faults and follies of the typical "loose cannon" archetype.

Yeah I agree with most of what you have written, and certainly with the deconstruction of the 'loose cannon', I just think that in an effort to assess the faults of what is traditionally a 'hero' character, we are over emphasizing his negative characteristics and ignoring some of the depth of the character in the process. Like with what Cletepurcel wrote, Mcnutty is the guy on his hands and knees giving her first aid, but Clete cant see a policeman on the ball and in the moment, it's just police instinct. Why? Would such an act be dismissed so readily if it were another officer tending to her? I get the impression people tend to overemphasize the negative qualities of flawed but largely decent characters (D'Angelo, McNulty), and ignore the very serious transgressions of much more sinful characters (Omar).

EvilTobaccoExec
Dec 22, 2003

Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

hiddenmovement posted:

Wait, hold on a second, weren't you guy in the other thread that took umbrage when I said that Tony Soprano was just a flat out sociopath that was extremely skilled at acting like a human being, claiming him to be a far more nuanced character? And here you are flat out describing McNulty as nothing more then 'a pretty big piece of poo poo?' Holy hypocrisy batman.

No, I'm the guy (one of many) that said you lack nuance, and oversimplify in an annoying way. See also: you strawmaning me as saying McNulty is "nothing more" than a piece of poo poo, along with a fictitious moral judgement you're imposing on me as if I'm saying that McNulty and Tony Soprano exist on some equivalent flat spectrum of "good person"/"bad person" where they're the same.

Christ.

hiddenmovement
Sep 29, 2011

"Most mornings I'll apologise in advance to my wife."

EvilTobaccoExec posted:

No, I'm the guy (one of many) that said you lack nuance, and oversimplify in an annoying way. See also: you strawmaning me as saying McNulty is "nothing more" than a piece of poo poo, along with a fictitious moral judgement you're imposing on me as if I'm saying that McNulty and Tony Soprano exist on some equivalent flat spectrum of "good person"/"bad person" where they're the same.

Christ.

I can only respond to the post you made. That's not strawmanning, that's called 'quoting', because there isn't a hint of balance or nuance in the post you just made, it's literally just 3 paragraphs of 'McNulty is a piece of poo poo'.

A strawman would be claiming I ever said that you (or anyone else) study characters by observing them on a flat spectrum of morality where everyone is the exact same shade of grey, when what I actually said was that the complexities of multi-faceted characters can introduce certain biases in the attitudes of the viewer based on the moral outlook of said character (what I actually said).

EvilTobaccoExec
Dec 22, 2003

Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

hiddenmovement posted:

I can only respond to the post you made. That's not strawmanning, that's called 'quoting', because there isn't a hint of balance or nuance in the post you just made, it's literally just 3 paragraphs of 'McNulty is a piece of poo poo'.

A strawman would be claiming I ever said that you (or anyone else) study characters by observing them on a flat spectrum of morality where everyone is the exact same shade of grey, when what I actually said was that the complexities of multi-faceted characters can introduce certain biases in the attitudes of the viewer based on the moral outlook of said character (what I actually said).

Bullshit, it's a strawman because that post is about the ways McNulty is a piece of poo poo while you are characterizing it as a total summation of his character. It was a lengthy post to elaborate on an often overlooked parallel with how he handled the Barksdale case (and his actions with the FBI considered heroic due to his general portayal) to how Valcheck handled the port case (but his actions a clear childish tantrum considering he's almost always portrayed as douche), from another discussion. The scope of that post was limited to making a specific point.

You called me a hypocrite for things I did not say in a parallel of Tony and McNulty: that's a strawman you constructed.

gently caress whatever personal vendettas you're carrying around from thread to thread with you. If you don't want to engage the actual content of a post just ignore it, don't try to shove words into my mouth.

EDIT: If you do wanna get back to my post... the reason I quoted that from the other Wire thread is as a rebuttal to the idea that McNulty is doing things because he believes in fixing the department or good policing instead of those being a byproduct of serving his ego (a point driven home in season 5). Those two those specific cases (the port analogy and his actions diverting the Kentell Williams string) specifically show how McNulty's rogue behavior can be far more destructive than helpful when his motivations of "ego" and "good of the department" are put in conflicting roles. In both cases, he's absolutely certain he's doing the right thing and will bury anyone to make it happen--making no distinction between "bad bosses" like Burrell and "good bosses" like Daniels--because he knows better for all of them. When others having conflicting interests to his own, he has little regard for them or the possibility they might be right (even those who have proven themselves to him like Daniels or Judge Phelan) because he's got that hard stand of "you're either with Jimmy McNulty or against him". You made a list of a lot of Valcheck's qualities and most all of those are true* but one aspect of Season 2 is how true a lot of those are of McNulty too.

*I called him "good police" in the sense he's not a hump. He's competent, even savvy, only we rarely see him involved in police work (as a boss) and clearly his interests are oriented towards career (political gaming). We see those skills from where he ends up with Carcetti and from guys like Herc coming to him to navigate the waters above their pay-grade; the after-hours attempts to secretly track down the van and wiffing the union's dirty money suggest that that insight also translates to real police work (or at least did at one time, before realizing the game was his more his interest). A major rear end in a top hat, but skilled at what he does.

EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Mar 25, 2013

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.
McNulty is a wonderful character. He's not a 'good' guy, though. He has it in him to be one- S4 shows McNulty at his best and is beautifully written because all season long you know he's going to fall off the wagon and it's a killer because you see how good living a simpler, more honest existence is for him.

One thing that's interesting is how the show really subverts the Loose Cannon archetype. In the standard drama, when things go to poo poo that's when the Loose Cannon gets to shine. In a regular-type story, that's when McNulty turns over every rock and brings home the Justice.

But here, he falls to pieces and retreats into drunken self-pity. It's a great handling of a character. It shows McNulty as a human and not a Harry Callahan.

bettsta
Jul 21, 2008
The show seems to make it a point to bring out the nuances of a character just to confuse you about whether or not you like someone. It's actually difficult for me to think of a significant character that hasn't changed my mind about whether or not they are "good". I mean, the characters themselves can't decide whether or not they love or hate McNulty. He's good at his job when it benefits him, but is willing to use anyone to get there. He's an rear end in a top hat but we find him compelling just like ASA Perlman does. We just love us some bad boy.

And it's a difficult call with McNulty's reaction to Kima being shot. Sure, it's completely believable that McNulty feels guilty because he started the whole Barksdale thing. It kind of points to McNulty thinking of the Barksdale case as "his" case that other people happen to help with. It also shows that when Kima is in crisis McNulty is focused on himself. It's disappointing given how awesome McNulty can be when he gets to it, but it's also a normal reaction to trauma. Guilt can do some weird things to people. Does that make him a total bitch or loyal police? Maybe a bit of both.

There's this sequence somewhere in season 2 (I think) that's really telling of McNulty's character - he convinces his ex-wife he's changed (that he's cut out heavy drinking and sleeping around), they sleep together, she tells him she doesn't want to get back together, and he immediately goes on a binge, wrecks his car (twice) and has a one night stand with a waitress. He sees what he wants, and either he gets it or fucks everything over.

Diabolik900
Mar 28, 2007

bettsta posted:

There's this sequence somewhere in season 2 (I think) that's really telling of McNulty's character - he convinces his ex-wife he's changed (that he's cut out heavy drinking and sleeping around), they sleep together, she tells him she doesn't want to get back together, and he immediately goes on a binge, wrecks his car (twice) and has a one night stand with a waitress. He sees what he wants, and either he gets it or fucks everything over.

I love the scene where he wrecks the car. He doesn't just get into two accidents because he's driving drunk. He gets into the exact same accident twice because he needs to prove that he was right, even though there's absolutely nobody else there to prove it to. He can't be at fault, it must be the world around him that is wrong somehow.

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.
Another funny note: when McNulty convinces Polk and Mahone to be useful for a change, he does that whole "I'm a leader of men!" routine with Kima.

But really McNulty is a lone wolf- most of the time he's off doing his own thing, even when the rest of the group is on the same job as he is. Lester shows in this latest episode why he's the natural leader of the bunch. Throughout the series, Lester is the guy who consistently builds and employs teams to get things done.

That's not a critique of McNulty, even. He just works best alone.

Fragmented
Oct 7, 2003

I'm not ready =(

Diabolik900 posted:

I love the scene where he wrecks the car. He doesn't just get into two accidents because he's driving drunk. He gets into the exact same accident twice because he needs to prove that he was right, even though there's absolutely nobody else there to prove it to. He can't be at fault, it must be the world around him that is wrong somehow.

I would think more people would get this scene but aside from most of you rewatching motherfuckers most people miss it i've noticed. I've watched that scene with a few newbies and no one caught that as the reason, they were just like "LOL drunk Mcnutty!"

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

Fragmented posted:

I would think more people would get this scene but aside from most of you rewatching motherfuckers most people miss it i've noticed. I've watched that scene with a few newbies and no one caught that as the reason, they were just like "LOL drunk Mcnutty!"

Until I came in here I didn't get it either. I noticed the scene, but I didn't really get why he reenacted the incident.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Randomly Specific posted:

Until I came in here I didn't get it either. I noticed the scene, but I didn't really get why he reenacted the incident.

To my great shame I've been guilty of pulling similar poo poo myself on a far, far, far lesser scale. Walking into the coffee table for example and getting all pissed off and deliberately retracing my steps to "prove" that it couldn't have possibly happened when really it's completely my fault.

McNulty just takes things to an insane degree is all.

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

Jerusalem posted:

To my great shame I've been guilty of pulling similar poo poo myself on a far, far, far lesser scale. Walking into the coffee table for example and getting all pissed off and deliberately retracing my steps to "prove" that it couldn't have possibly happened when really it's completely my fault.

McNulty just takes things to an insane degree is all.

You've got to watch those coffee tables. Certain brands are more aggressive than others, especially the ones made out of walnut.

nwin
Feb 25, 2002

make's u think

Couple questions about season 2 that I still can't wrap my head around, even though I'm on my fourth or fifth rewatch.

Currently watching Episode 10, "Storm Warnings"

1) The FBI guy from San Francisco. He gets called about the electronics shop owner (Gleikas) and then next thing I know he's busting the container full of raw. Was this one of the good containers that was supposed to get delivered to the greeks but they gave it up to to get the scent off them? How are the greeks and the FBI guy connected?

2) Stringer wants good product from Prop Joe. Avon says gently caress no, not gonna share territory. Stringer does it anyways. Avon gets Brother Mouzzone out as protection for the towers. So now, what it looks like to me is Prop Joe is thinking 'wtf happened? I had a deal with Stringer to share territory and my nephew just got shot'. That part isn't making sense at all either.

Anything?

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006



IT'S YOUR BOY JESUS, MANE

nwin posted:

Couple questions about season 2 that I still can't wrap my head around, even though I'm on my fourth or fifth rewatch.

Currently watching Episode 10, "Storm Warnings"

1) The FBI guy from San Francisco. He gets called about the electronics shop owner (Gleikas) and then next thing I know he's busting the container full of raw. Was this one of the good containers that was supposed to get delivered to the greeks but they gave it up to to get the scent off them? How are the greeks and the FBI guy connected?

2) Stringer wants good product from Prop Joe. Avon says gently caress no, not gonna share territory. Stringer does it anyways. Avon gets Brother Mouzzone out as protection for the towers. So now, what it looks like to me is Prop Joe is thinking 'wtf happened? I had a deal with Stringer to share territory and my nephew just got shot'. That part isn't making sense at all either.

Anything?

1) The can the FBI dude busts was a gift horse to get the FBI off them. Also, wasn't the agent present at those dinner scenes with Vondas/The Greek/the Madame? He knows them personally.

2) Prop Joe is aware that Avon is being uncooperative, no?

Lugaloco
Jun 29, 2011

Ice to see you!

nwin posted:

Couple questions about season 2 that I still can't wrap my head around, even though I'm on my fourth or fifth rewatch.

Currently watching Episode 10, "Storm Warnings"

1) The FBI guy from San Francisco. He gets called about the electronics shop owner (Gleikas) and then next thing I know he's busting the container full of raw. Was this one of the good containers that was supposed to get delivered to the greeks but they gave it up to to get the scent off them? How are the greeks and the FBI guy connected?

2) Stringer wants good product from Prop Joe. Avon says gently caress no, not gonna share territory. Stringer does it anyways. Avon gets Brother Mouzzone out as protection for the towers. So now, what it looks like to me is Prop Joe is thinking 'wtf happened? I had a deal with Stringer to share territory and my nephew just got shot'. That part isn't making sense at all either.

Anything?

1) I think that was a Columbian cartel container, or at least made up to be... I think. It's been a while since I've seen season 2. Presumably The Greek provides information about possible terrorist threats/cartel shenanigans in exchange for protection as it's the highest of the FBI's priorities since 9/11.

2) It makes sense if you just take it at face value. Stringer and Avon are effectively fighting over running the Barksdale Organization. Stringer thinks Avon's "name called out in the streets and holding onto a bunch of territory" approach just isn't feasible anymore with an inferior product whilst Avon thinks Stringer's approach of trying to "legitimize" bits and pieces will weaken the organization. We've seen the pair slowly drift apart over three seasons and this is the culmination of that. It just so happens that the East side is caught in the middle.

Alec Bald Snatch
Sep 12, 2012

by exmarx

nwin posted:

Couple questions about season 2 that I still can't wrap my head around, even though I'm on my fourth or fifth rewatch.

Currently watching Episode 10, "Storm Warnings"

1) The FBI guy from San Francisco. He gets called about the electronics shop owner (Gleikas) and then next thing I know he's busting the container full of raw. Was this one of the good containers that was supposed to get delivered to the greeks but they gave it up to to get the scent off them? How are the greeks and the FBI guy connected?

2) Stringer wants good product from Prop Joe. Avon says gently caress no, not gonna share territory. Stringer does it anyways. Avon gets Brother Mouzzone out as protection for the towers. So now, what it looks like to me is Prop Joe is thinking 'wtf happened? I had a deal with Stringer to share territory and my nephew just got shot'. That part isn't making sense at all either.

Anything?

The Greek is an FBI counterterrorism asset, Agent Koutris is his handler who monitors related actions and tips off the Greek to keep his import business operating.

String and Avon have an unresolved disagreement over giving some of the towers to Prop Joe in exchange for selling his package. Avon goes behind Stringer's back and contracts Mouzone to get his turf back from Joe's men, which in turn leads Stringer to try and manipulate Omar into taking out Brother Mouzone.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

nwin posted:

Couple questions about season 2 that I still can't wrap my head around, even though I'm on my fourth or fifth rewatch.

Currently watching Episode 10, "Storm Warnings"

1) The FBI guy from San Francisco. He gets called about the electronics shop owner (Gleikas) and then next thing I know he's busting the container full of raw. Was this one of the good containers that was supposed to get delivered to the greeks but they gave it up to to get the scent off them? How are the greeks and the FBI guy connected?

2) Stringer wants good product from Prop Joe. Avon says gently caress no, not gonna share territory. Stringer does it anyways. Avon gets Brother Mouzzone out as protection for the towers. So now, what it looks like to me is Prop Joe is thinking 'wtf happened? I had a deal with Stringer to share territory and my nephew just got shot'. That part isn't making sense at all either.

Anything?

In episode 9, which is where they tip off Agent Koutris, The Greek and Spiros are talking about how their Colombian cartel partners are unreliable so as a thank you to Koutris for tipping them off about the wiretap (remember, Fitz called Koutris and asked about Double G earlier in the episode) they give him this huge drug bust. It doesn't hurt them in any way and it makes life easier for their man inside the FBI.

As for Prop Joe he is a smart man. He knows who Mouzone is and since he is protecting Avons turf he also knows that Stringer didn't hire him. He correctly deduces that Stringer also can't actively do anything to move against Mouzone which is why they come up with the whole Omar thing.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 18 hours!

MrBling posted:

As for Prop Joe he is a smart man. He knows who Mouzone is and since he is protecting Avons turf he also knows that Stringer didn't hire him. He correctly deduces that Stringer also can't actively do anything to move against Mouzone which is why they come up with the whole Omar thing.

It does seem strange that none of that ever gets back to Avon, though. "Hey, those guys Mouzone shot said that Stringer said it was okay for them to deal here. What's going on, man? Did you tell String to do that?"

Randomly Specific posted:

But really McNulty is a lone wolf- most of the time he's off doing his own thing, even when the rest of the group is on the same job as he is. Lester shows in this latest episode why he's the natural leader of the bunch. Throughout the series, Lester is the guy who consistently builds and employs teams to get things done.

That's not a critique of McNulty, even. He just works best alone.

I forget which episode it is, but there's a scene where McNulty tries to impress the whole team with the things he's learned, only to be preempted at the beginning of his "Who loves me?" speech by the team having already found out all his info over the wire a few days previous. That and the aforementioned scene of him driving into the pillar a second time really sum up the character well.

edit: VVV

nwin posted:

Ah ok, that all makes a lot more sense. Thanks. Still doesn't make sense why Prop Joe didn't seem a little more pissed off about his nephew getting shot though. Even though, a few episodes earlier, I recall him saying family is a pain in the rear end to deal with, so maybe he just saw it as ends justifying the means.

Cheese seems to be the Ziggy Sobotka of the Stewart-Wagstaff clan, based on how Joe treats him.

Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 26, 2013

nwin
Feb 25, 2002

make's u think

MrBling posted:

In episode 9, which is where they tip off Agent Koutris, The Greek and Spiros are talking about how their Colombian cartel partners are unreliable so as a thank you to Koutris for tipping them off about the wiretap (remember, Fitz called Koutris and asked about Double G earlier in the episode) they give him this huge drug bust. It doesn't hurt them in any way and it makes life easier for their man inside the FBI.

As for Prop Joe he is a smart man. He knows who Mouzone is and since he is protecting Avons turf he also knows that Stringer didn't hire him. He correctly deduces that Stringer also can't actively do anything to move against Mouzone which is why they come up with the whole Omar thing.

Ah ok, that all makes a lot more sense. Thanks. Still doesn't make sense why Prop Joe didn't seem a little more pissed off about his nephew getting shot though. Even though, a few episodes earlier, I recall him saying family is a pain in the rear end to deal with, so maybe he just saw it as ends justifying the means.

Lugaloco
Jun 29, 2011

Ice to see you!

nwin posted:

Ah ok, that all makes a lot more sense. Thanks. Still doesn't make sense why Prop Joe didn't seem a little more pissed off about his nephew getting shot though. Even though, a few episodes earlier, I recall him saying family is a pain in the rear end to deal with, so maybe he just saw it as ends justifying the means.

Yeah, Prop Joe doesn't strike me as a guy who'd get mad and want "revenge" for his family, especially going up against Mouzone and Cheese wasn't even killed. I always took it as Joe just laying back, waiting for the information to come to him instead of potentially stepping on someone's toes and drawing more unwanted attention to his dealings.

He's gotta keep it boring.

Dead fuckin' boring.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Keep in mind that NOBODY talks to Avon from the outside except for Stringer, Levy or Brianna. Of them, the only one who can talk shop is Stringer, and they still have to be careful about what they say to each other since everything will be being recorded. Avon might get generalized ideas of what is going on from prison gossip, but the only person he can get specifics from is Stringer.

This is why things go so bad in season 3, because Avon is free to talk to people, give orders and countermand Stringer.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 26, 2013

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

I'm a mess in distress
But we're still the best dressed
Kinda off topic but I always enjoy the scene in episode 1 with the DA who is more concerned with some guy ripping off a couple bucks on pressure washing than he is the Barksdales turning a slam dunk murder conviction around on him.

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012

Spoilers Below posted:

It does seem strange that none of that ever gets back to Avon, though. "Hey, those guys Mouzone shot said that Stringer said it was okay for them to deal here. What's going on, man? Did you tell String to do that?"



It does get back to Avon. It is why Avon ends up giving Stringer's location to Mouzone in season 3. It doesn't happen immediately because Stringer is basically the only link between the dealers on the street and Avon, but it does happen.

nwin
Feb 25, 2002

make's u think

Also, the deal the greeks want to give Frank Sobotka wouldn't have even mattered, right? Ziggy had signed a sworn loving statement saying he shot the two guys in the shop. However, I'm guessing Frank and Spiros weren't privy to that information.

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

nwin posted:

Also, the deal the greeks want to give Frank Sobotka wouldn't have even mattered, right? Ziggy had signed a sworn loving statement saying he shot the two guys in the shop. However, I'm guessing Frank and Spiros weren't privy to that information.

Nick finds that out after Frank's death, when he turns himself in.

SubponticatePoster
Aug 9, 2004

Every day takes figurin' out all over again how to fuckin' live.
Slippery Tilde

Randomly Specific posted:

That's not a critique of McNulty, even. He just works best alone.
Counterpoint; Bunk. See: gently caress, gently caress gently caress motherfuck gently caress me

DropsySufferer
Nov 9, 2008

Impractical practicality
I've made it to the the end of session 3 and I'll be stopping now until the writeups eventually get to season 4. I realized I missed so much about Stringer and Avon. Stringer isn't near as intelligent as I gave him credit for. The problem with Stringer is he is trying to have things both ways. He wants the gangster drug business and he wants to be a "real businessman". Avon knows better that the drug business is what it is and won't be changed. Stringer is very short sighted and does not grasp the economic concepts he was attempting to learn.

Avon impresses in the sense that not while business savvy has tremendous common sense and knows exactly how to run a gang and that reputation is extremely important unlike Stringer.

One the saddest moments in the series is near the end of the 3rd session when Avon and Stringer are talking on the balcony of Avon's high rise apartment about the past.

quote:

Avon:
"Tonight I'm going to just kick back and enjoy this view. I mean look at this poo poo. Can you loving believe this?" "I mean I got a crib that's overlooking the harbor. This is the same place we used to run through this Motherfucker we had every security guard in there following us."

Stringer
"As they should have"

Avon agreeing "True, true" " And there was that one time."

Stringer interrupts "Toy store?"

Avon:
"Hell yeah, I told your rear end not to steal the badminton set. What are you going to do with a loving net and a racket and we ain't got no yard (Stringer and Avon say together). " You like. Yo, that white boy ain't going to jump over that counter and come chase after me."

Stringer
"He sure did though".

Avon:
"He was on your rear end like Carl Lewis, fists was rolled up. Your rear end was running too, as fast as you could. Punching yourself in the chest looking all mad and poo poo."

Stringer

"That poo poo was crazy man. Right here too, right there. Goddamn" Can you imagine, man, if I had the money that I have now, man. I could have bought half this waterfront property. God drat it "

Avon
"Forget about that for a while, man. You know, just dream with me."

Stringer
"We ain't got to dream no more, man. :smith:
At this point Avon knowns Mouzone is coming for Stringer, it's a sad moment. Later in the courtroom after Avon is arrested. Avon keeps looking back as if Stringer would still be there like in the past. I think Avon really felt Stringer was like a brother to him.

Respect to Jerusalem and escape artist, just copying that bit of dialogue took me quite a while.

DropsySufferer fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 29, 2013

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!
You know what's funny, is talking about the Koutris/The Greek angle is something that's never really looked at again. The relation of the Federal institution vs how it counteracts whats happening at a state or local level. Remember, it's hard for The Detail to get resources from the FBI because the institution is now focused on terrorism.

It's a phrase that had appropriate usage in Breaking Bad, but I would say Kafkaesque is an accurate way to describe what you learn in those last few episodes. There are games being played that no one has any idea about. I think Season 2 has a theme of federal vs local government/people. After all, the FBI is overjoyed about busting the Union. But the Union was the only thing keeping that area intact.

Randomly Specific
Sep 23, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

Boywhiz88 posted:

You know what's funny, is talking about the Koutris/The Greek angle is something that's never really looked at again. The relation of the Federal institution vs how it counteracts whats happening at a state or local level. Remember, it's hard for The Detail to get resources from the FBI because the institution is now focused on terrorism.

Part of that is showing how fleeting the opportunities for major coups are. The Greek is not a comic book villain who's going to come back and taunt the heroes. He knows full well how close he was to getting perp-walked. The FBI maybe gets him out after he's publicly busted, but at that point he's damaged goods and his position in the grand scheme is greatly complicated. So he steps back and lets the boredom do its killing (scores half the detail by the end, right?) and then he returns to the scene.

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the black husserl
Feb 25, 2005

Boywhiz88 posted:

After all, the FBI is overjoyed about busting the Union. But the Union was the only thing keeping that area intact.

Nick says he is proud to be from Locust Point. That area is now super hip and has gentrified like crazy, I'm not sure he could afford to live there now.

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