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Bill really wants people to agree with him that Islam is a worse religion and there is no point behind that urge he has. He's wrong as well because it's never as simple as a single cause, single factor; correlation therefore causation. Especially when you're factoring in statistics from the middle east. Also, not every shooting is a massacre -one shooter in an enclosed space with potential victims. It's a hypothetical he keeps bringing up and it has no place (besides that it's the minority of shootings). "Wouldn't it be great if some hero with a gun shot the crazy shooter?" Yeah, it would be great, but what the hell are you talking about? Nobody is attempting to confiscate the guns of all law-abiding citizens, so what the hell is he talking about? He's gives a point to the pro-gun side on an issue that is just nonsense.
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Apr 20, 2013 05:48
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Was this the first episode of Real Time, ever, to not actually have a proper Final Rule? Last night was the first I've seen that I can recall of such and I've not missed an episode for years now. The shooting chat was just a rehash of when Newtown went down, only one extreme counted, etc. They even had a go at this on VICE's Morning After in terms of how all these damned special snowflake scenarios fall apart pretty easily the second somebody decides to take a hostage among many others.
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Apr 20, 2013 13:27
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ExiledTinkerer posted:Was this the first episode of Real Time, ever, to not actually have a proper Final Rule? Last night was the first I've seen that I can recall of such and I've not missed an episode for years now. There was one they teased earlier in the week on Huffpo/Raw Story/etc. where Bill makes fun of atheists for not being able say "oh my God" or some dumb poo poo. They likely scrapped it after we found out the Tsarnaev brothers were Chechen and his Islamophobia kicked in to high gear. Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 17:49
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edit: As far as Bill's added animosity toward the religion of Islam. I have a theory that he's still angry about having that one quote explode in his face (the one that caused him to lose his ABC show). I wasn't a big follower of his old TV show so I don't know if he was as aggressively against Islam back then as he is now.Blastedhellscape posted:Oh, I agree completely. But whenever Maher says something that Fox News or right wing talk radio finds offensive they always preface it with something like "Giant noted LIBERAL Bill Maher said:" and it's pretty annoying. It's just a label that has a shifting definition depending on when you hear it and who uses it. I've heard people say that "CNN is completely liberal" which doesn't seem exactly right. Hogburto posted:"Wouldn't it be great if some hero with a gun shot the crazy shooter?" Yeah, it would be great, but what the hell are you talking about? He (and others) bring it up because those are the situations that get the biggest headlines (the ones with big body counts and only one guy having a gun). The common refrain from pro-gun groups and people: If everyone had a gun on them at all times then these mass killings wouldn't happen. I have no doubt that that's probably true in some of these past instances. The problem is that in these micro-hypotheticals it can work but when you consider the ramifications of most people carrying guns at all times it becomes obvious on the macro level that there will be a lot more gun accidents, rage shootings, suicides etc. when many guns are introduced into all environments. There is always the possibility of more collateral damage as well. I think this notion can fall apart in some situations. IIRC, that "Joker shooter" at the TDKR film back in July had a lot of body armor on and threw gas canisters around the dark theater. I have less confidence in someone being able to quickly shoot that guy down. Would people then suggest we bring gas masks and bulletproof vests to every film we go to? Well, someone might. Finally, there are still a lot of hypothetical "gun hero" scenarios that become more precarious. One example is that little kids can't be trusted to use guns. ExiledTinkerer posted:Was this the first episode of Real Time, ever, to not actually have a proper Final Rule? Last night was the first I've seen that I can recall of such and I've not missed an episode for years now. I don't think it's the first time but I can't point to any specific examples of the past. Zogo fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Apr 21, 2013 |
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Apr 21, 2013 22:56
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I thought Bill was pretty much an rear end that entire episode. He was a giant dick to the interview guy and I thought he was pretty rude to the guy who got shot at VA tech. I could not figure out what his drat point was when he was badgering the second guy about "what if someone in the class had a gun to fight back with?". Yeah maybe things would have been different, or maybe a potential armed person in the class would just end up accidentally shooting people while trying to take down the shooter. Bill just seemed to be at odds with his own opinions and I couldn't figure out what the gently caress his agenda was it all. Really loving aggravating actually.ExiledTinkerer posted:Was this the first episode of Real Time, ever, to not actually have a proper Final Rule? Last night was the first I've seen that I can recall of such and I've not missed an episode for years now. It actually seemed like they ran over time and they had to change things up on the fly. I'm assuming they have different new rule arrangements ready to go each week so they can adapt on the fly to whatever they end up with for time at the end.
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Apr 21, 2013 23:09
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Zogo posted:edit: As far as Bill's added animosity toward the religion of Islam. I have a theory that he's still angry about having that one quote explode in his face (the one that caused him to lose his ABC show). I wasn't a big follower of his old TV show so I don't know if he was as aggressively against Islam back then as he is now. That might be part of it, but I think it has more to do with his friendship with Christopher Hitchens and considering himself part of the New Atheist crowd, which is prone to Islamophobia, and probably more importantly the prominence which Islamic terrorism has taken in American media and society since 9/11. I remember his old show fairly well, and at the time Islamic terrorism in general was treat as more of a joke when it was mentioned at all. Comedy Central even had a rap video back in 94 or so making fun of Mohammed Salameh's name, and his role in how the 1993 WTC bombers were busted, which admittedly was pretty funny. The bigger terror threats then were right wing militias, anti-abortion activists, and the Unabomber, and that was the general cultural shorthand for terrorism right up until 9/11.
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Apr 22, 2013 00:06
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Am I the only one that feels that Bill is becoming less and less liberal each episode. His anti-tax, anti-gun control, and anti-Islam has really been kicked into gear. I really will say that the gendercide statistic shocked me.
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Apr 22, 2013 00:58
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I dont remember much of what he said except for the "You cant do a Book of Islam type show like you can with Mormonism." and hes not really wrong on that. And if you think he is you're really kidding yourself. What else did he specifically say?
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Apr 22, 2013 01:08
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Bill Maher, that loving Christianophobe.
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Apr 22, 2013 01:21
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punk rebel ecks posted:Am I the only one that feels that Bill is becoming less and less liberal each episode. His anti-tax, anti-gun control, and anti-Islam has really been kicked into gear. Bill always came off as being much more libertarian than liberal. He just doesn't think of taxation as theft. Also, what is up with the woman who works for The Blaze? She's been on there before, right? I seem to remember someone else from that site on there before and the folks related to Glenn Beck's media organizations don't seem to look like you would expect them to.
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Apr 22, 2013 01:51
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ApexAftermath posted:I thought Bill was pretty much an rear end that entire episode. He was a giant dick to the interview guy and I thought he was pretty rude to the guy who got shot at VA tech. I could not figure out what his drat point was when he was badgering the second guy about "what if someone in the class had a gun to fight back with?". Yeah maybe things would have been different, or maybe a potential armed person in the class would just end up accidentally shooting people while trying to take down the shooter. Bill just seemed to be at odds with his own opinions and I couldn't figure out what the gently caress his agenda was it all. Really loving aggravating actually. I recall this shooting on the streets of New York, maybe a year ago. There was this armed guy with a grudge against his former employer. Cops responded, opened fire, and in the process hit half a dozen bystanders. And these are people who are supposed to be trained to handle a gun in a high stress situation.
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Apr 22, 2013 09:53
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richardfun posted:I recall this shooting on the streets of New York, maybe a year ago. There was this armed guy with a grudge against his former employer. Cops responded, opened fire, and in the process hit half a dozen bystanders. And these are people who are supposed to be trained to handle a gun in a high stress situation. Would it make you feel any better if I told you that thanks to lateral entry programs a significant number of police have little to no firearms training before being let out on the street?
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Apr 22, 2013 10:10
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watt par posted:Would it make you feel any better if I told you that thanks to lateral entry programs a significant number of police have little to no firearms training before being let out on the street? It would not.
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Apr 22, 2013 10:11
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richardfun posted:It would not. Knowing the NYPD somewhat well, I can tell you that the NYPD does in fact have a fair amount of firearms training. So the accidental shooting of bystanders at the Empire State Building was done by decently trained police. Which, I think supports your point. edit: And did anyone notice how small Salmon Rushdie's hands are? It was like they belonged to a child. And the woman in the middle was actually pretty reasonable, I have a difficult time believing she's somehow associated with Glenn Beck. By the way, seconding the disapproval of how Bill handled the first guest. He was a huge dick to the guy. Barracuda Bang! fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 16:56
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Barracuda Bang! posted:By the way, seconding the disapproval of how Bill handled the first guest. He was a huge dick to the guy. It felt like Bill was just ready to rip on the dude. I actually wanted to hear his view and Maher kept cutting him off and I started yelling at my TV.
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Apr 22, 2013 20:09
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IIRC, the lady in the middle wasn't always tied to The Blaze...though for the life of me I can't recall what her prior gig was. Something on radio perhaps? I also agree that the initial interview was a bust, though the guy seemed a bit too shocked at Bill's particular slant on issues of Islamic terror and whatnot---he figured out to just roll it onto general protest by the time they'd wasted most of the interview before hitting other subjects. The gender killings are definitely going to come to a head even moreso in the near future in terms of China and the rest most implicated in it---such a ridiculously short sighted discriminatory notion. Pretty harrowing mix going from that to VICE's bit on Depleted Uranium weapons and such in Iraq---that one house clearing weapon in particular being one I'd entirely forgotten about since the war happened.
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Apr 22, 2013 22:14
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ExiledTinkerer posted:IIRC, the lady in the middle wasn't always tied to The Blaze...though for the life of me I can't recall what her prior gig was. Something on radio perhaps? She was a speechwriter for former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.
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Apr 22, 2013 22:31
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Amy Holmes has been on there at least once per season....she was really mellow this time though.
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Apr 22, 2013 23:03
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punk rebel ecks posted:Am I the only one that feels that Bill is becoming less and less liberal each episode. His anti-tax, anti-gun control, and anti-Islam has really been kicked into gear. It is possible that he's turning into a cranky old man. A new iteration of Scrooge. watt par posted:That might be part of it, but I think it has more to do with his friendship with Christopher Hitchens and considering himself part of the New Atheist crowd, which is prone to Islamophobia, and probably more importantly the prominence which Islamic terrorism has taken in American media and society since 9/11. Yea, if he aligns himself with them that sounds right. Islamophobia is something that sells really well post-9/11. Like the red scare last century. zVxTeflon posted:I dont remember much of what he said except for the "You cant do a Book of Islam type show like you can with Mormonism." and hes not really wrong on that. And if you think he is you're really kidding yourself. What else did he specifically say? Over the last few years he's made many comments stating that Islam (right now at least) is inherently more violent and intolerant than other religions.
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Apr 22, 2013 23:55
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The thing that the media overwhelming ignores is that most terrorists plots are foiled due to other Muslims reporting them. It isn't great police work foiling these schemes and plans.
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Apr 23, 2013 00:46
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I can't remember who said it on Real Time a year or two ago, but it was either Reza Aslan or Fareed Zakaria who made the counter argument to Bill that the reason Islam appears more extremist is because our extremists drive SUVs and have pretty privileged lives vs a lot of muslim extremists that live in pretty lovely conditions. I think the exact phrase used was "their extremists live in garbage heaps". That really stuck with me as a good counterpoint to what Bill always says about Islam being inherently violent. It just seems like such an obvious answer that poverty more than anything drives extreme behavior. Why doesn't this get used more?
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Apr 23, 2013 00:47
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Because it sounds like nonsensical horseshit. Our SUV driving extremists are doing what? Bombing girls schools? Threatening murder because someone made a wacky Jesus cartoon? Bin Laden was a millionaire, Al-Awaiaki grew up in New Mexico. His dad has a masters degree. 911 hijackers were university students. The marathon bombers live in loving Boston.
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Apr 23, 2013 01:11
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zVxTeflon posted:Because it sounds like nonsensical horseshit. Our SUV driving extremists are doing what? Bombing girls schools? Threatening murder because someone made a wacky Jesus cartoon? Bin Laden was a millionaire, Al-Awaiaki grew up in New Mexico. His dad has a masters degree. 911 hijackers were university students. The marathon bombers live in loving Boston. Ok but the stuff you bring up is probably like 1% of extremist terrorist incidents when you look at it as a world wide thing. Bombings and terror bullshit happen daily in the middle east.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:00
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And theres a poo poo ton of poor people of other religions all over the world that aren't doing comparable stuff. Being poor doesn't give you an excuse to do atrocious poo poo.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:15
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zVxTeflon posted:Because it sounds like nonsensical horseshit. Our SUV driving extremists are doing what? Bombing girls schools? Threatening murder because someone made a wacky Jesus cartoon? Bin Laden was a millionaire, Al-Awaiaki grew up in New Mexico. His dad has a masters degree. 911 hijackers were university students. The marathon bombers live in loving Boston. To be fair you have to be pretty well off to attack Americans in America if you aren't originally from America. Meanwhile, our extremists are bombing government buildings, shooting folks with rifles while hiding in trunks of cars, murdering doctors because of services they provide to women or just going into churches and shooting up the congregation. 9/11 was a huge attack that will probably never be repeated because it was a paradigm shift in the way to respond to hijacking but people are always going to be vulnerable to those who want to cause harm and inflict psychological terror on the American populace. The problem with people who kill for religious reasons is their belief that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their actions in this one. I don't think we can change that mentality.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:19
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zVxTeflon posted:And theres a poo poo ton of poor people of other religions all over the world that aren't doing comparable stuff. Being poor doesn't give you an excuse to do atrocious poo poo. So just so we're clear here, you are in agreement with Bill that "Islam is just an inherently violent religion"?
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Apr 23, 2013 02:26
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richardfun posted:I recall this shooting on the streets of New York, maybe a year ago. There was this armed guy with a grudge against his former employer. Cops responded, opened fire, and in the process hit half a dozen bystanders. And these are people who are supposed to be trained to handle a gun in a high stress situation. Another aspect that was not entirely surprising was police leadership praising the officers for their actions and the results. If those had been all random citizens that had turned NYC into the gunfight at the O.K. corral they would've condemned those gun owners. watt par posted:Would it make you feel any better if I told you that thanks to lateral entry programs a significant number of police have little to no firearms training before being let out on the street? What is lateral entry? zVxTeflon posted:Our SUV driving extremists are doing what? Bombing federal buildings, abortion clinics and targeting doctors and proponents of abortion seem to be the recent prominent examples.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:27
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Zogo posted:Bombing federal buildings, abortion clinics and targeting doctors and proponents of abortion seem to be the recent prominent examples. I know you weren't replying to me, but I think a good thing to keep in perspective is these specific events you are alluding to are very very rare. I can only think of the Dr. Tiller incident as far as abortion shootings go, and for bombings of government buildings all that comes to mind is Oklahoma City. Meanwhile this kind of poo poo is a daily occurrence in more unfortunate parts of the world.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:36
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It's amazing how people behave differently when they feel they can get away with it or they feel it's acceptable. If mobs could form as effectively in the states as they can in conditions in the middle east, I think you can imagine who would be dragging who chained to the back of pick-up trucks adorned with confederate flags on a nearly daily basis. Directly comparing America to the middle east to prove anything about people is stupid. Let's not.
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Apr 23, 2013 02:50
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Hogburto posted:If mobs could form as effectively in the states as they can in conditions in the middle east So you would agree then that the conditions especially in the poorest parts of the middle east play a big role in why there is so much violence right?
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Apr 23, 2013 03:00
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I would have thought it went without saying, in fact.
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Apr 23, 2013 03:03
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Hogburto posted:I would have thought it went without saying. Yeah for some, but there are apparently people that need convincing just based on this thread alone not to mention Bill Maher himself. zVxTeflon posted:And theres a poo poo ton of poor people of other religions all over the world that aren't doing comparable stuff. Being poor doesn't give you an excuse to do atrocious poo poo. Missed this. You're coming at this with incredibly narrow minded thinking. These people aren't like "Well I'm poor so that means I get to do this". Someone who can explain this better than I should take a crack at it but basically you need to understand that poverty breeds all kind of discontent and people who are desperate will cling to really terrible poo poo when everything else about their life sucks rear end. I feel like even I'm not doing justice with that explanation. ApexAftermath fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 03:05
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The weird thing is that he understood and agreed that most muslims are good people like anyone else and he still feels the need to associate the religion with the violence as closely as possible, instead of the social underpinnings. Same with the other point I mentioned in my earlier comments on the episode about how he brings up that almost entirely irrelevant pro-gun scenario. I wanna say we might see Maher start reasoning these things in a more complete scope, but he's been an Islamaphobe since he was on ABC. And he argued with those 2 guests over those 2 subjects. 
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Apr 23, 2013 03:18
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Zogo posted:What is lateral entry? Basically a cost-saving measure and a way to meet personnel goals quickly by going from recruitment to street duty with minimal training but with the guarantee of training to come. It was originally meant for police transferring from other jurisdictions to get to work in a new department fairly quick. A lot of ex-military are recruited through it as well, but individual departments get a little leeway or when things are tight and they wind up putting people with no background and little training out on street duty. ApexAftermath posted:I can only think of the Dr. Tiller incident as far as abortion shootings go, There were a few in the 90s, but the primary forms of anti-abortion violence are bombings and arson. Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 04:30
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watt par posted:There were a few in the 90s, but the primary forms of anti-abortion violence are bombings and arson. You got my point though right? It happens hardly ever in the US when we look at world wide instances of terror attacks.
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Apr 23, 2013 04:38
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zVxTeflon posted:And theres a poo poo ton of poor people of other religions all over the world that aren't doing comparable stuff. India isn't a predominately Muslim country yet they're just behind Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan in terms of terrorist attacks. ApexAftermath posted:You got my point though right? It happens hardly ever in the US when we look at world wide instances of terror attacks. In large part because much of the movement has found success in banning abortion through state laws, obviating the need to kill providers and blow up and torch clinics. But to your point, the US is a far more stable place. The leap it takes for someone to go from radicalization to violence is a lot larger here than it is in say Indonesia or Yemen.
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Apr 23, 2013 04:47
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watt par posted:In large part because much of the movement has found success in banning abortion through state laws, obviating the need to kill providers and blow up and torch clinics. I have a hard time believing that there would be more attacks if the bullshit legislation was less successful, but if that did turn out to be true you can bet that the FBI would bring the loving hammer down on these right wing fuckers so fast it would make their heads spin. I can't deny I would love to see these these assholes get profiled like crazy. They deserve it.
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Apr 23, 2013 04:54
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ApexAftermath posted:I have a hard time believing that there would be more attacks if the bullshit legislation was less successful, but if that did turn out to be true you can bet that the FBI would bring the loving hammer down on these right wing fuckers so fast it would make their heads spin. I can't deny I would love to see these these assholes get profiled like crazy. They deserve it. Eventually that'd be true because the Christian Right from which the anti-abortion radicals are drawn is aging and dying off. Funny you mention profiling because DHS released a report early into the first Obama administration on homegrown right-wing terrorism and pretty much everyone went batshit because how dare we profile white people or even suggest they're more of a threat than those evil Muslims.
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Apr 23, 2013 05:01
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I don't disagree that poverty and economic differences play a big role, but you'd have to be really loving naïve to not say that generally islam tends to be the more radical of the major world religions. Not even getting into the ridiculous worldwide riots that spring up anytime someone halfway across the world decides to make a cartoon about Muhammed, or burn a holy book, just the despicable treatment of women alone should warrant discussion. Frankly I'm glad Bill has the balls to come out and say it. It goes without saying that the majority of muslims are peace-loving, fine people, but there are large parts of the world where Islam seems to still be stuck at where Christianity was in the middle ages. There needs to a concerted effort to modernize the religion and bring it into the 21st century (and improving people's quality of life and access to education is certainly a part of that), but pretending that all religions are equal and everything's fine and dandy doesn't help anyone. Bill may be overly blunt about it and ignore some of the contributing factors, but as someone who shares his disdain for religion in general, I'm glad at least someone is talking about this publicly. bullet3 fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 05:43
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You're making the same mistake that Bill Maher makes in confusing the radicalizing effect instability and economic inequality has with something inherent to Islam itself. What about India, or Mexico, or Honduras, or El Salvador, or Colombia, or Brazil, or Venezuela, or the Philippines, or the DRC, or CAR, or South Africa, or Angola, or Ireland, or Spain, or any number of breakaway republics in former Soviet satellite states? What about the Basques?
Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 06:05
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