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Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

Why would you not want hitters to exercise plate discipline

What

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Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

Mornacale posted:

Verducci, the author who is slavishly devoted to his decade-plus-old research on the importance of pitch counts, disdains the idea that offenses care about pitch counts. This is like the Twins and walks.
I'll have you know that the Twins are on a pace to be above the American League average in walks taken for the fourth season out of the last five :colbert:

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.

Sports Illustrated, in caption posted:

Joey Votto might be the game's most patient hitter, but few others can be as selective and as good as he is.


No poo poo?

Pumpkin McPastry
Mar 8, 2004

What else do I have to do to impress you people?

Crazy Ted posted:

I'll have you know that the Twins are on a pace to be above the American League average in walks taken for the fourth season out of the last five :colbert:

Meanwhile, the biggest reason for that in Joe Mauer is reviled for his cake-eating approach.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!

I wonder what Verducci would say regarding the Phillies anemic offense partly due to guys who strike out a lot and don't walk.

"Not enough clutch hitters"

"Needs more grinders"

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

Pumpkin McPastry posted:

Meanwhile, the biggest reason for that in Joe Mauer is reviled for his cake-eating approach.
Well that's down to rubes you'll find in just about any sports market. My favorite was Dan Barreiro from last year:

WHEN YOU ARE BEING PAID TWENTY-THREE MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR YOU SHOULD BE HITTING A MINIMUM OF .350 WITH 35-40 HOME RUNS AND YOU ARE NOT PAID TO WALK YOU ARE ALSO A CATCHER SO YOU SHOULD NEVER PLAY ANY POSITION OTHER THAN CATCHER

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.
That article is basically Philadelphia_Media_Vs_Bobby_Abreu_1998-2005.txt.



vvv Sorry, I was referring to Verducci's article as "that article". The railing against Joe Mauer is tremendously dumb, and also is shades of Bobby Abreu's time in Philly.

Badfinger fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 24, 2013

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

To the above: reading comprehension is apparently not my friend today.

Badfinger posted:

That article is basically Philadelphia_Media_Vs_Bobby_Abreu_1998-2005.txt.
The problem with Mauer was that his crazy MVP season basically caused a lot of dumb unreasonable Twins fans to think that somehow .365/.444/.587, a 171 OPS+, 30 doubles, 30 home runs, and 100 RBI (while still missing a month) with solid defense behind the plate would be the floor or at worst the average for the prime of his career.

And then he got those nagging injuries two years ago after he signed the new contract and holy gently caress...

That year Barreiro started a weekly segment on his show, in the Twins' home market, called "How Long Would Mauer Milk It?" in which he would look at other injuries in sports and declare how long Joe Mauer would be out if he had the same affliction.

Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Apr 24, 2013

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!

I gotta develop some sort of card to give anyone that disparages Joe Mauer.

5th in active players for OBP%, top 50 all time (all positions), 2nd all time catcher (minimum 1000 games). 2nd all time OPS+ catcher (minimum 1000 games), #5 all time wOBA, #4 all time wRC+ for a catcher.

Basically the list goes on and on.

Harlock fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Apr 24, 2013

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


Harlock posted:

I gotta develop some sort of card to give anyone that disparages Joe Mauer.

5th in active players for OBP%, top 50 all time (all positions), 2nd all time catcher (minimum 1000 games). 2nd all time OPS+ catcher (minimum 1000 games), #5 all time wOBA for a catcher.

Basically the list goes on and on.

First all time in cake consumption.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?
Finding out that "cake eater" was a thing that people actually say in the Twin Cities and not just a thing the Mighty Ducks made up was so exciting.

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






Well now I just want cake.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

MourningView posted:

Finding out that "cake eater" was a thing that people actually say in the Twin Cities and not just a thing the Mighty Ducks made up was so exciting.

finding out that it is actually an insult and not a compliment was disheartening

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

finding out that it is actually an insult and not a compliment was disheartening

You were watching that movie very strangely.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

MourningView posted:

You were watching that movie very strangely.

i heard the phrase in re mauer before i saw that movie :(

Truther Vandross
Jun 17, 2008

MourningView posted:

You were watching that movie very strangely.

In fairness, if there's one group of people who probably can't process eating cake as a negative in any way, it is SomethingAwful forums posters.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
This is actually a pretty great investigative article from :siren:Deadspin:siren: about the San Diego Chargers doctor being a drunk quack.

http://deadspin.com/the-chargers-doctor-is-a-drunk-quack-why-havent-they-466685771

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012

question,

what it the sas consensus on Jeremy Schaap and Bob Ley?

They seem to be the last two really good journalists on that network.

My respect for Schaap has increased in recent years due to his coverage of the Wheldon passing, and various other difficult stories in the world of sports.

It's really refreshing to see sports covered in the way those two guys do.

LARGE THE HEAD
Sep 1, 2009

"Competitive greatness is when you play your best against the best."

"Learn as if you were to live forever; live as if you were to die tomorrow."

--John Wooden
Schaap gets a lot of poo poo for his Tom Rinaldi-esque faux gravitas but his reporting chops are very solid. Ley does consistently great work on Outside the Lines.

That Deadspin report is damning, well supported and probably just scratching the surface. Great stuff.

Mr. Funny Pants
Apr 9, 2001

LARGE THE HEAD posted:

Schaap gets a lot of poo poo for his Tom Rinaldi-esque faux gravitas but his reporting chops are very solid. Ley does consistently great work on Outside the Lines.

Schaap gets a lifetime pass for pissing off Bobby Knight to the point of highlighting just how much of a pathetic bully Knight is.

swizz
Oct 10, 2004

I can recall being broke with some friends in Tennessee and deciding to have a party and being able to afford only two-fifths of a $1.75 bourbon called Two Natural, whose label showed dice coming up 5 and 2. Its taste was memorable. The psychological effect was also notable.
I really liked Jeremy Schaap's work related to the "Finding Bobby Fischer" segment he did for Outside the Lines

nasboat
Sep 9, 2004

swizz posted:

I really liked Jeremy Schaap's work related to the "Finding Bobby Fischer" segment he did for Outside the Lines

The exchange at the end between he and Fischer at the press conference was amazing at the time and is still amazing today.

DO YALL WANT A BOXC
Jul 20, 2010

HAHA! WOOOOOOO WOOO!
Fun Shoe
That Deadspin article is top journalism.

zinc68
Apr 26, 2010

MourningView posted:

Finding out that "cake eater" was a thing that people actually say in the Twin Cities and not just a thing the Mighty Ducks made up was so exciting.

Not only that, but they properly use it. Anyone from Edina = cake eater.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

nasboat posted:

The exchange at the end between he and Fischer at the press conference was amazing at the time and is still amazing today.
That whole interview ended up being pretty riveting since Schaap knew Fisher as a kid thanks to his father.

Also, if you want to know the quality of Schaap and Ley, they basically winged it on their own in the studio for 2.5 hours on the afternoon of the Boston Marathon bombing and pretty much did a better job of just reporting straight news and facts than any national news outlet.

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012

swizz posted:

I really liked Jeremy Schaap's work related to the "Finding Bobby Fischer" segment he did for Outside the Lines

That was incredible.

The one thing that blew me away was how knowledgeable about Jesse Owens. He was on Big Ten Icons, and he came off as almost a professor with how much he knew about him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTtCIxmeuns

This is still my favorite piece he's done though. I realize I have an autoracing bias, but he shows off how well rounded of a reporter he was.

Few mainstream writers I think could file a report on this without coming as really uninformed.

Crazy Ted posted:

Also, if you want to know the quality of Schaap and Ley, they basically winged it on their own in the studio for 2.5 hours on the afternoon of the Boston Marathon bombing and pretty much did a better job of just reporting straight news and facts than any national news outlet.

Agreed. Was thanking god ESPN stuck with them on the air during that whole event.

OrangeKing
Dec 5, 2002

They do play in October!

swizz posted:

I really liked Jeremy Schaap's work related to the "Finding Bobby Fischer" segment he did for Outside the Lines

I almost brought this up, but didn't think anyone else would have known about it. Yeah, this was pretty amazing. I remember when that press conference happened: even knowing Fischer was crazy going in, it was still sad and kind of shocking.

Kalli
Jun 2, 2001



Crazy Ted posted:

That whole interview ended up being pretty riveting since Schaap knew Fisher as a kid thanks to his father.

Also, if you want to know the quality of Schaap and Ley, they basically winged it on their own in the studio for 2.5 hours on the afternoon of the Boston Marathon bombing and pretty much did a better job of just reporting straight news and facts than any national news outlet.

Yeah, I was cutting between them and the local news coverage. They did an excellent job at reporting information while the cable news channels were bloviating about Al Qaeda terror cell nonsense.

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






Wow, here's hoping Bobby Fischer is currently inhabiting a special place in Hell. What a bigoted scumbag shithead.

haljordan fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Apr 26, 2013

LARGE THE HEAD
Sep 1, 2009

"Competitive greatness is when you play your best against the best."

"Learn as if you were to live forever; live as if you were to die tomorrow."

--John Wooden
Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress is tearing ESPN recruiting analyst Dave Telep a new rear end in a top hat over this article on Twitter.

quote:

@DaveTelep Just read your article. Nothing will change unless you and your colleagues stop protecting these guys by not naming names.

quote:

@DaveTelep Sorry to say, but you guys are part of the problem. If kids don't think there are repercussions to their behavior, why change?

quote:

@DaveTelep "they stand in stark contrast to a member of the Class of 2013 who declined insertion" - why do you need to hide their name?

quote:

Here is @DaveTelep 's otherwise strong article: http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=dave-telep&id=3494&src=desktop&wjb … - Problem is it passes the buck on instead of taking responsibility..

Givony is @DraftExpress on Twitter, and if you like basketball you should follow him anyway.

Blast Fantasto
Sep 18, 2007

USAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
The coded racism in that article makes me wanna puke.

I also like how his example of players
being entitled is an 18 year old saying " I wish we had pizza."

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
Is it just me or did they remove that article?

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

Mahoning posted:

Is it just me or did they remove that article?

They did.

Geno
Apr 26, 2004
STUPID
DICK
What was the article about? There a cache of it?

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






I never understand when websites do this. Obviously, the article shouldn't have been published in the first place. So does that mean that no one is proofing these authors' works, or does it mean that the editor just doesn't give a poo poo?

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

Okay so does anybody here know what was in that article? Referencing the other posters above me, it looks like ESPN has wiped it away.

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






Crazy Ted posted:

Okay so does anybody here know what was in that article? Referencing the other posters above me, it looks like ESPN has wiped it away.

Blah blah all athletes today, even HS kids, are spoiled shits, dogwhistle racism, etc.

LARGE THE HEAD
Sep 1, 2009

"Competitive greatness is when you play your best against the best."

"Learn as if you were to live forever; live as if you were to die tomorrow."

--John Wooden
It was an article about how entitled elite high school basketball players are, with some examples of past behavior. No names were named; a couple camp directors were anonymously quoted as saying the class of 2013 was the most entitled ever.

Telep did relay one great anecdote on one kid (again, no name given) asking Jalen Rose at a camp what women were like in the NBA. (That's some real heavy paraphrasing)

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






gently caress it, if they're going to DI schools who are in turn going to make millions and millions of dollars from their playing then let those kids get theirs too.

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Geno
Apr 26, 2004
STUPID
DICK
Ok found it:

http://espn.go.com/blog/dave-telep/post/_/id/3494/the-entitlement-culture-of-elite-hs-hoops

quote:

When I stepped off the plane from California after returning home from the Elite 24 high school basketball showcase last August, “it” was building. The feeling percolated and simmered to the point of sadness. The level of concern for this generation of players was weighing on my mind.

OK, that’s not exactly truthful. It actually took only five minutes into the event’s first scrimmage for “it” to begin. It was a feeling that crystallized as I watched two dozen of the best high school basketball players in the country gather for what should have been a chance to improve, push themselves and measure themselves against other great players.

Instead, what we saw was a microcosm of some of the ills of the game manifesting in one final end-of-summer setting. Don’t get me wrong. Some players were buttoned up, had their shirts tucked in and were working hard. But those players were in the minority. Most of the guys loafed around the bench, feigned injury and couldn’t have been more disinterested. I can’t say there was anyone pushing them or holding them accountable, but that’s merely part of the bigger problem.

The effort on the court was bad enough. Seven minutes in, the scrimmage disintegrated into a cherry-picking contest of uncontested dunks and missed layups. Having been in all-star settings before, expectations are low. But this was unreal. The best way to sum it up would be to say if college coaches had been allowed in the building, scholarships would have been pulled. Yes, it was that bad.

But the behavior off the court may have been even worse. One player said of the buffet at the Ritz Carlton, “They should have just gotten us pizza.” Another player asked Jalen Rose about the, well, women in the NBA. And we’re only scratching the surface here.

Why am I writing about this now? Because as the travel team season heats up, the entitled, diva culture of high school basketball steps once again to the forefront. And because, frankly, this hits home for me. It saddens me.

Having covered recruiting since 1997, I’ve witnessed a gradual decline in the attitudes of the players, the priorities of their parents and the overall state of the game. If saying so makes me a “hater,” then so be it. It’s the truth -- and any college coach not worried about his standing with recruits will echo the same sentiment.

[+] Enlarge

AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast
Prospects like Jabari Parker who value winning above individual status used to be more common. Now they are becoming the exception among elite recruits.
Now, granted, there are still plenty of good guys. Players like Marcus Smart and Jabari Parker care about winning, play a team game and respect those around them. There’s no stress in watching them perform because you know they are driven by the right motivations and respect the game’s principles on and off the court.

Their attitudes make them all the more valuable, but they stand in stark contrast to a member of the Class of 2013 who earlier this month declined insertion into a competition because he felt disrespected about his minutes. Guys like Smart and Parker used to be the rule, now they’re the exception.

I asked the staffers at Elite 24 who’d been part of the game for the past seven years and they said last year’s crop was the most entitled bunch of players they’ve seen. Then a few months ago, I ran into a guy who worked the NBA draft combine and he said this year’s crop of NBA rookies that came through the combine was the most entitled group he’d seen. Getting a clearer picture now?

There’s plenty of talent in the high school ranks -- that’s not the problem. The issue is that the talent isn’t being developed on or off the court to standards that benefit the health of the game.

College coaches have to teach freshmen basic concepts -- concepts so basic that the average fan would be mortified to know how little his coveted recruit actually understands about the game. I once watched a current top 100 senior run to the baseline when told to start a play at the elbow.

Some college programs take the initiative from day one to help their guys. I’ve heard of teams going through courses on dress, manners and how to respectfully treat women. But other programs are content to allow their players to pass through the turnstiles and let the chips fall where they may. Sadly, there are college coaches with so little interest in developing the person as well as the player that they'd sooner have him transfer than invest time in teaching him the right way to conduct himself.

There is plenty of blame to go around. I'll even point the finger at myself. Though cognizant of overhyping a player, it's irresponsible not to view myself as a cog in the process.

Those of us who cover basketball from the grassroots level share many similar opinions on the state of the game, and the college guys bend our ears daily with tales from their end. Something has to change, but change isn’t easy.

Recently, three things came to mind that, if we could instill these values in future generations of players, might actually make some progress.

1. Appreciation

Let’s face it: College basketball is a business, and high school basketball isn’t far behind. But it’s not the NBA. These players aren’t professionals, and despite a lot of people and entities making money, playing this game is not a right. College basketball is a privilege. High school and AAU basketball should be considered privileges, as well.

When someone gives you food, fills the stands with thousands of people to watch you or offers a simple “congrats on your success,” there’s a standard of appreciation that should reciprocate that courtesy. “Thank you” is an easy phrase to say.

It’s a privilege to play college basketball. You have to be good enough. Wearing the uniform itself should be a source of pride. The name on the front of the jersey should trump the letters stitched on the back.

2. Humility

No one is bigger than the game. Every year there are two dozen McDonald’s All Americans, but there has never been a year when they’ve all become NBA players or even elite college players. You haven’t made it just by being an elite recruit. High school success isn’t the destination, it’s just part of the journey.

Players who think they are special are making a mistake. Being an elite recruit means you have a chance to be good. Respect the chance, make the most of it, but stay humble.

3. Being part of something bigger than yourself

It’s not just the one-and-done guys who don’t “unpack their bags” in college. Players who are in their fourth years might still have never bought into the team or allowed themselves to be coached. In today’s game, high school kids are constantly transferring. So when they get to college and hit a wall, they do what they’ve been conditioned to do: they transfer.

It would be nice to see players take up the challenge of unpacking their bags, getting to know their teammates and respecting the journey they are about to go on. Take pride in being a part of your school’s community and weave yourself into the fabric of campus life. You might actually like what you see.

The role of parents plays into this, too. Look around the gym at basketball events. Too often, instead of the parents sitting together and cheering the team, they’re isolated, choosing instead to only cheer for their sons. Parents are more likely to wonder why a player didn’t pass to their son than be happy for the kid who scored. Parents also need to allow their kids to be coached, corrected and even -- hold your breath now -- criticized. Life’s a journey. Experiencing some trials and tribulations now can prepare a young man for the future.

In today’s grassroots basketball culture, there’s always another game, another camp, another event. Forget that. Winning matters. A return to that simple maxim could go a long way toward reclaiming our values and culture -- and game -- on and off the court.

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