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I agree that something like Eren-Titan needed to happen, badly. I just kind-of wish Eren had totally bought the farm and the focus shifted to Armin and Mikasa since Eren suffers from a bad case of "loudmouth shonen protagonist" syndrome. It's intentional and subverted and even managed well, yes, but he's easily my least favorite cast member by a sizable margin and seeing that kind-of guy bite it due to recklessness--to the point where he may not even have been able to activate his latent Titan abilities that you could give to Mikasa--would have been awesome and even consistent with the gut-punches of the first chapters. It really would have been the most perfect way of saying "hey, hard work gets you most places but you can still get unlucky and being a passionate hothead will often make you unlucky." Eren's strategy was bold and even beautiful, but ridiculously stupid. No war against the Titans could ever be won that way.
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May 5, 2013 22:58
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I wasn't to hot on his power, either, until the arc in the forest where Annie kills pretty much everyone and still kicks his rear end pretty handily. Even with cool super powers Eren still isn't super amazing.
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May 5, 2013 23:07
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To be honest, I don't think either Armin or Mikasa would have worked as a titan on a narrative level. Mikasa's fighting skills are already top-class, to the point where she is one of the few people that can kill titans as a human being. Adding the ability to turn into one on top of that seems superfluous and upsets the entire balance of the series. It's overkill. Just like Mikasa, Armin is already gifted. It just happens to be mentally. Making him into a titan doesn't further that in any interesting way, it just makes him too "balanced" as a character. Now he doesn't have to struggle to make people listen to him, he becomes "complete" in and of himself in his ability to formulate plans and carry them off. Eren is pretty much the perfect choice. He's honestly not an idiot--he's perfectly capable of making rational judgements, like figuring out that the Colossal Titan is sentient to a degree far beyond normal titans based on his destruction of the cannons--but he loathes titans with every atom of his being. However, being a titan is the only way he's been remotely effective at killing them, so there's an intrinsic, subconscious clash in him becoming a titan already. Then there's the fact that even as a titan, his character flaws don't go away and make things easy for him. He still gets outclassed by people better than him. Normal titans can still gang up and take him down. Being a titan fixes nothing for his weaknesses; it just forces him to confront them even further.
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May 5, 2013 23:13
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musouka posted:Eren is pretty much the perfect choice. He's honestly not an idiot--he's perfectly capable of making rational judgements, like figuring out that the Colossal Titan is sentient to a degree far beyond normal titans based on his destruction of the cannons--but he loathes titans with every atom of his being. However, being a titan is the only way he's been remotely effective at killing them, so there's an intrinsic, subconscious clash in him becoming a titan already. Then there's the fact that even as a titan, his character flaws don't go away and make things easy for him. He still gets outclassed by people better than him. Normal titans can still gang up and take him down. Being a titan fixes nothing for his weaknesses; it just forces him to confront them even further. I don't think they've even addressed the issue of Eren's tenuous control over his Titan form yet; didn't he try to smash Mikasa the second time he transformed? Hopefully as this series goes on it emphasizes that you don't want to be full of rage and hot-bloodedness when you're a 15-meter tall murder machine in a war zone with squishier friendlies around.
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May 5, 2013 23:18
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I actually agree with your statements on Armin. I just said if the narrative shifted focus to him, not if he became a Titan in his own right. Having this kind-of dark series shift focus to a smarter guy who is better at staying alive using cowardly methods isn't exactly new. I do disagree with Mikasa though. Having her essentially break down and have to rebuild after losing Eren--with or without Titan powers--and deciding to see his dream of destroying all Titans through would have been engaging as gently caress. Suddenly you have a prodigy deciding she wants to lead humanity to victory-- how the gently caress does she go about doing that? As Eren proved being able to rally people means poo poo with current Human weaponry, and while she's brilliant it's not like she can just magic up a widescale solution to deal with the Titans whilst simultaneously keeping them at bay. I know it's hard to picture given the various revelations of other Human-Titans, Titans in the wall, and Squatch-Titan, but I saw potential in that avenue and was a little disappointed to see it close.
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May 5, 2013 23:21
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chami posted:I don't think they've even addressed the issue of Eren's tenuous control over his Titan form yet; didn't he try to smash Mikasa the second time he transformed? Hopefully as this series goes on it emphasizes that you don't want to be full of rage and hot-bloodedness when you're a 15-meter tall murder machine in a war zone with squishier friendlies around. I think it's meant to be assumed he's been gradually taking more and more conscious control of the titan each time he turns into it.
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May 5, 2013 23:22
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After his 2nd transformation he appears to have pretty much complete control over it. To the point where he can use complex grappling moves while in that form.
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May 5, 2013 23:25
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mind the walrus posted:I do disagree with Mikasa though. Having her essentially break down and have to rebuild after losing Eren--with or without Titan powers--and deciding to see his dream of destroying all Titans through would have been engaging as gently caress. Suddenly you have a prodigy deciding she wants to lead humanity to victory-- how the gently caress does she go about doing that? As Eren proved being able to rally people means poo poo with current Human weaponry, and while she's brilliant it's not like she can just magic up a widescale solution to deal with the Titans whilst simultaneously keeping them at bay. This is where you and I differ, I think. I don't think any one person--whether it's Mikasa, Eren, or Armin--is capable of "leading humanity to victory" and shifting the tone of the series that far would have killed my interest in it altogether. If the series was about [insert someone here] taking the reins for the betterment of humanity, there's no reason why it couldn't happen whether Eren died or not. Instead, by becoming a titan, Eren has become a political pawn in a game far above his head. There's absolutely no reason to think the same thing wouldn't have happened to Mikasa if she had become the center of the series, and I don't think her reaction to it would have been as interesting as Eren's has been.
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May 5, 2013 23:29
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mind the walrus posted:I do disagree with Mikasa though. Having her essentially break down and have to rebuild after losing Eren--with or without Titan powers--and deciding to see his dream of destroying all Titans through would have been engaging as gently caress. Suddenly you have a prodigy deciding she wants to lead humanity to victory-- how the gently caress does she go about doing that? As Eren proved being able to rally people means poo poo with current Human weaponry, and while she's brilliant it's not like she can just magic up a widescale solution to deal with the Titans whilst simultaneously keeping them at bay. This would have been cool. I'm not super interested in the Titan vs. Titan fights. Yeah, it's action-y, but it's just not very interesting to me? The point that drew me to the series was the brutal nature of fighting against seemingly overwhelming and deadly odds and overcoming that with teamwork and smart tactics - and yes, some great maneuvering and competence on the part of the human 3DMG operators. The big problem against fighting Titans at first is of course, the shock and newness. It's been 100 years since people truly had to fight Titans as the wall was protecting them, but clearly, it's not impossible given some of those kill records by Reveille's group. Then, as the Scouting Legion manages to figure out regular Titans (dangerous, but predictable and dumb in a way), deviant Titans show up and it's a lot more deadly due to intelligent monsters... so on. To me, it feels a little like the way Naruto progressed - from, okay, shounen 'ninja' (magic fighter) fights to crazy demon chakra fights. While Eren is starting to use technique, the level the Titans are operating on is brute power in comparison to the humans of the series. The message is a bit odd. In order to fight monsters, you must turn into a literal monster yourself, too? Then and only then can you have a chance of winning a monster war? Okay... [Or, I guess I wanted to see X-Com and we got, um, Naruto instead. Still entertaining, just not as interesting as it could have been.]
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May 5, 2013 23:36
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E-- ^^^ This guy totally gets where I'm coming from. I think you misread. Part of what would have been interesting to me would be watching Mikasa--the person arguably best capable of doing the job--deciding to try and lead humanity and running into the wall of impossibility that says she can't. For a book that has done a very good job of presenting impossible roadblocks most shonen would plow through via the "heart of the cards" or whatever, it would have been perfectly in-line and interesting as balls to see her almost blindly try to honor her love for Eren no matter what gets thrown in her way. In fact while I don't think it's anywhere near the point of insolvency I do think that the current plot has so many disparate threads that it deflates the relevance of Eren to the point where the story threatens to either marginalize him or (more likely) have him ultimately wield disproportionate influence in the outcome of the ultimate events to satisfy the narrative need for an effective protagonist. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 5, 2013 |
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May 5, 2013 23:36
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Katreus posted:Then, as the Scouting Legion manages to figure out regular Titans (dangerous, but predictable and dumb in a way), deviant Titans show up and it's a lot more deadly due to intelligent monsters... so on. To me, it feels a little like the way Naruto progressed - from, okay, shounen 'ninja' (magic fighter) fights to crazy demon chakra fights. While Eren is starting to use technique, the level the Titans are operating on is brute power in comparison to the humans of the series.
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May 5, 2013 23:40
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I'm looking forward to the retaking of the HQ. I wonder how they're going to do the smaller titans.
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May 5, 2013 23:45
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mind the walrus posted:I think you misread. Part of what would have been interesting to me would be watching Mikasa--the person arguably best capable of doing the job--deciding to try and lead humanity and running into the wall of impossibility that says she can't. For a book that has done a very good job of presenting impossible roadblocks most shonen would plow through via the "heart of the cards" or whatever, it would have been perfectly in-line and interesting as balls to see her almost blindly try to honor her love for Eren no matter what gets thrown in her way. Ah, okay, I think I understand what you're saying now. I'm not sure I agree that Mikasa would have reacted to Eren's actual death in that way, though, as I don't think Mikasa has any personal drive towards "leading humanity". But, then again, I don't think Eren had any drive in that direction either, so it's hard for me to imagine Mikasa interpreting Eren's goal as trying to actually take over the movement against titans as a whole. Eren's goal of eradicating all titans led him to want to be on the front lines of the offensive as one of many soldiers, not as a leader. While it's possible for Mikasa to look at the situation and see that taking a more active stance is the most logical way to carry out Eren's dying wish, I don't think logic is Mikasa's strongest suit. She might not be as loud, but she also has a tendency to let her emotions overcome her, not unlike Eren. On the other hand, yeah, timeskip a few years after Eren's death and have Mikasa as the leader of her own squad and you could probably do something drat pretty interesting with that. I'd rather follow her as a "cog" dealing with personal issues than as a titan, though. mind the walrus posted:In fact while I don't think it's anywhere near the point of insolvency I do think that the current plot has so many disparate threads that it deflates the relevance of Eren to the point where the story threatens to either marginalize him or (more likely) have him ultimately wield disproportionate influence in the outcome of the ultimate events to satisfy the narrative need for an effective protagonist. I don't know. I've always got the feeling that Eren might be the lens through which we view the world, but his impact on the overall narrative isn't in line with a traditional protagonist, so I'd go with choice one. I don't think the series is going to end with Titan Eren super-punching the Titan Queen or something.
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May 5, 2013 23:49
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Wouldn't wishing Mikasa as the titan also mean wishing for her to be in that court deciding to be either part of the Recon squad or exterminated by the military/religion sect?
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May 5, 2013 23:51
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musouka posted:I don't know. I've always got the feeling that Eren might be the lens through which we view the world, but his impact on the overall narrative isn't in line with a traditional protagonist, so I'd go with choice one. I don't think the series is going to end with Titan Eren super-punching the Titan Queen or something. Of course not. He'll rage yell while the Queen Titan beats the living poo poo out of him, only to be saved by a Mikasa/Rivaille double attack which Armin planned out to maximize Eren's impotent berserker rage.
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May 5, 2013 23:58
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Tae posted:Wouldn't wishing Mikasa as the titan also mean wishing for her to be in that court deciding to be either part of the Recon squad or exterminated by the military/religion sect? Wait. What? Why does there have to be a Titan in the squad anyway? (Other than the Titan infiltrators, of course.) Doesn't that defeat the purpose of seeing this brutal world of humans vs. Titans, where a single misstep or loss of concentration leads to your dismemberment or death or to your squad mates'? (As opposed to ridiculous regeneration rates, the Energizer Bunny of fights.)
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May 5, 2013 23:59
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Gyges posted:Of course not. He'll rage yell while the Queen Titan beats the living poo poo out of him, only to be saved by a Mikasa/Rivaille double attack which Armin planned out to maximize Eren's impotent berserker rage.
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May 6, 2013 00:08
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Katreus posted:Wait. What? Why does there have to be a Titan in the squad anyway? (Other than the Titan infiltrators, of course.) I don't see how that necessarily defeats the purpose. It's not like Eren-Titan's presence has slowed down the torrent of dead and/or dismembered Recon Legion soldiers. In fact, during the "blocking the hole in the wall with a rock" arc and the "capture Annie-Titan in the forest" arc, most of the deaths and dismemberments occurred because of Eren-Titan, in that Pixis and Irvin were throwing away soldiers' lives to protect Eren-Titan.
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May 6, 2013 00:10
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I don't really see the appeal in watching people who only ever lose or at best win a pyrrhic victory. There is a reason why the story isn't about the scouting legion's trips before the wall came down. If you really want to see a bunch of random dudes get torn apart for no particular reason, there is always Gantz. My point is, without Eren as a titan the primary conflict of the setting would be completely hopeless. With him, it is only mostly hopeless.
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May 6, 2013 00:17
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AradoBalanga posted:So...you're saying that Armin is the long-lost ancestor of David Xanatos? Don't think Xanatos would scream himself into such a stupor he didn't see his best friend uppercut he way out of Santa Titan while turning into the Titan avatar of Rage. Xanatos would find a way to plan out Eren's impotent berserker rage into the crucial final blow the Titans didn't expect, instead of being merely a flailing distraction.
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May 6, 2013 00:47
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That's why I'm really excited to learn more about Ymir; she has the same potential Eren had and we don't know her motivation, but if she's on humanity's side then not only do we get more titan fighting and a window into a titan's worldview, it could stop Eren from having a disproportionate influence on the events of the story (not saying he does at the moment, but the risk is there)
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May 6, 2013 00:49
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Besides being an interesting character, Ymir as a titan doesnt seem as distinct as the other human-titans. The others retain human proportions for the most part but undergo a more radical change in appearance, Ymir looks lije normal titans with weird proportions. That said, Yeti Titan (Yetitan?) Has weird limbs so maybe I'm just wrong.
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May 6, 2013 01:01
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And yet, her titan form is almost more human. She can talk, and I think I even saw a few emotions in her face.
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May 6, 2013 02:31
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So, I couldn't deal with the wait for the next episode of the anime and blasted through the manga in a few hours. I wanted to know if there's any clue what the deal with the new titans inside the Wall Maria is. There seems to be an implication that the humans are turning into titans or something--maybe because of the the ape-like titan. Also now I get to enjoy a month-long agonising wait as opposed to week-long ones yay.
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May 6, 2013 02:36
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I think Shingeki no Kyojin has by far the highest conversion rate of anime viewers to manga readers of any anime series in recent history.
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May 6, 2013 02:38
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And it's hilarious because I don't think most people get the answers they are looking for from reading the manga. It's just a bunch more questions piled on top.
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May 6, 2013 02:52
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It's cruel is what it is. Still totally worth it though!
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May 6, 2013 02:58
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Grei Skuring posted:And yet, her titan form is almost more human. She can talk, and I think I even saw a few emotions in her face. Are you saying this in comparison to other titans, or to human Ymir? Because you can't tell me titan Annie isn't feeling the hell out of something when Mikasa drops her. Those are some kicked-puppy eyes right there.
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May 6, 2013 03:02
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Autumncomet posted:I thought he was implying his parents were members of the Survey Corps and got munched on. Serious Frolicking posted:They were part of a conscripted army supposedly meant to retake the wall, but they were just a bunch of normal civilians so no one really bought the pretense.
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May 6, 2013 03:06
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From the anime thread, with spoiler tags removed:Stall_19 posted:
I can easily see how, at this stage, people might think Mikasa is the actual main character of the story. But why would they think Armin is the main character? He's not even in the ED of the anime. JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 09:33 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 07:15
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A smarter Shinji? I dunno.
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May 6, 2013 07:19
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He's smart and knows to be afraid when the enemy outclasses you in a dozen different ways, which is a big plus when the guy who lost his head and (as far as they know) paid for it with his life was set up to be the main character. It could be seen as a deliberate "take that" to the concept of the main character who saves the day by getting mad and screaming really loud.
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May 6, 2013 07:19
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People love underdogs, and Armin's pretty much the underdog of underdogs. Humans are pretty much outclassed by Titans, and Armin is similarly outclassed by other people. Plus, Eren died to save his life, which could be seen as setting him up for great things in the future.
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May 6, 2013 07:22
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So I just finished reading the whole manga in one sitting, and holy poo poo there is never a part of it where I thought to myself "man this is a little boring" I really love the whole thing. It feels a lot like the really good parts of Berserk, in terms of art style and tone at the very least, and maybe more than anything the sense of hopelessness for the people fighting the creatures that suddenly show up (like when Zodd makes his very first appearance in Berserk.) I guess there have been a lot of people making the leap to the manga since the anime started, but I just had to come and sing my praise for it. e:I really wish there were more of those informative charts and maps and stuff at the ends of chapters like there were at the beginning though
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May 6, 2013 08:31
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I think we have a winner in the anime thread. ShardPhoenix, to be precise.
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May 6, 2013 11:29
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I hope they show Mikasa's origin story soon so all the people in the anime thread stop calling her a "Mary Sue." It is super annoying that trope is being thrown around, and even worse when they are using it wrong. Sorry for the rant it is just annoying. If people do stop watching the show becuase Eren gets his Titan Powers they are silly because stuff only gets better from then on. I was worried about that too when I read the managa; I figured he would just be able to wipe the floor with all the titans, but that has not been the case so far. Dick Spacious CPA fucked around with this message at 14:12 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 14:06
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coreycoryecorey posted:I hope they show Mikasa's origin story soon so all the people in the anime thread stop calling her a "Mary Sue." It is super annoying that trope is being thrown around, and even worse when they are using it wrong. Again, these are the people I'm hoping loving leave once episode 6/7 happens and it goes By The Way This Is Still An Anime because there's a lot of talk like 'oh man this is really defying the genre conventions of anime mm hmm oh yes eren should be a wheelchair for the rest of the show oh yes m hmm mm hmm and what is do be done about this Mary Sue??'
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May 6, 2013 14:11
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Rei_ posted:Again, these are the people I'm hoping loving leave once episode 6/7 happens and it goes By The Way This Is Still An Anime because there's a lot of talk like 'oh man this is really defying the genre conventions of anime mm hmm oh yes eren should be a wheelchair for the rest of the show oh yes m hmm mm hmm and what is do be done about this Mary Sue??' Yea. It kind of the same deal we had with Madoka. How people would gush over how it was a "deconstruction of the whole magical girl and anime genre" it was. Don't get me wrong I liked Madoka and it was a good show, but it was by no means the most forward-thinking and genre breaking anime of all time. I wish people would realize that killing off the main character in the middle of his or her Journey is not conducive to good story telling. Sure it would be edgy and make people go WHOA, but it is kind of hard to pick up the pieces be able to frame the rest of the story after that.
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May 6, 2013 14:20
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coreycoryecorey posted:I hope they show Mikasa's origin story soon so all the people in the anime thread stop calling her a "Mary Sue." That's next episode according to the preview. And guess what? They are still going to hate her! "What kind of child can kill a dude like that so unrealistic" or something.
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May 6, 2013 14:24
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I just get frustrated over people who constantly jockey for 'Grimdark' appeal in shows, like everything has to be Warhammer. AOT is about struggle, and it's about the will to survive, and just because it's told incredibly well doesn't mean it's still not a manga.
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May 6, 2013 14:24
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