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Zettace posted:Armin's head being conveniently in the way of the "torso" and all the camera angles hiding the torso area was an obvious sign for me. But the actual confirmation is the final cut where we can see the entire picture. His legs are obviously gone and he looks way shorter than normal. Popo posted:Did nobody see this shot? It's a brief shot where it's possible to miss the fact that he's missing anything at all. Evidence: People in this topic and elsewhere who have actually missed that fact. Again, it's possible to infer what's going on, and if you did, good job. All is well. But a non-negligible number of people missed it entirely. I'm not clamoring for explicit bloody gore, but in this instance... it just wasn't clear what had happened. And that lack of clarity changed the meaning of the scene.
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May 15, 2013 10:00
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Denim Avenger posted:The careful cropped shots hinting at what was wrong, the characters reactions, it all seemed way more effective than some gory shock shot of the character as just a torso. It's not "subtle, slow build up" or "gory shock shot"; the "careful, cropped shots" are in the manga. The scene in the anime is lifted almost exactly from there, just missing the final reveal. See here, here, here. I thought it weakened the scene, but I went into it expecting that reveal. It threw me off when I realised it wasn't coming; kind of like when you try to climb one more step than there is on the stairs.
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May 15, 2013 10:45
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I very much prefer the Anime's take on the scene. To me it was pretty clear that he was dead. I don't need a gratuitous image like that to hammer that point in my head. Honestly the scene in the manga would have taken me out of my immersion with how forced and unsubtle that would have been.
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May 15, 2013 11:43
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Stall_19 posted:I very much prefer the Anime's take on the scene. To me it was pretty clear that he was dead. I don't need a gratuitous image like that to hammer that point in my head. Honestly the scene in the manga would have taken me out of my immersion with how forced and unsubtle that would have been. I know what you mean, but a scene like that isn't even supposed to be "immersive". It's a hosed up sight and these people don't get the luxury of subtlety in their lives. Yeah, it looks unreal, but their entire situation is unreal. tiistai fucked around with this message at 11:56 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 11:53
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tiistai posted:I know what you mean, but a scene like that isn't even supposed to be "immersive". It's a hosed up sight and these people don't get the luxury of subtlety in their lives. Well when I saw that that panel from the manga my first thought was that was pretty dumb. I stop thinking in the context of the story and start thinking about it in the context of the person who wrote the scene. While in the Anime is was pretty clear from just Armir's reaction alone that he was dead. I took the scene as the girl was in shock when I believe was what they wanted to convey. I consider the scene an improvement from the manga.
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May 15, 2013 12:07
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Stall_19 posted:Well when I saw that that panel from the manga my first thought was that was pretty dumb. I stop thinking in the context of the story and start thinking about it in the context of the person who wrote the scene.
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May 15, 2013 12:19
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I think, regardless of how well executed or not you think the manga does it, that there's a big difference between shocked, and insane, broken desperation. Yeah, it's obvious he's dead. It's not nearly as obvious just how badly that death broke her. Like seriously no one is doubting that the subtle shots are clear about his death and whatever. E: also I have no idea how a person being eaten in half is unrealistic within the context of the story 
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May 15, 2013 12:20
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Captain Invictus posted:Wow you should stop doing that, how do you enjoy anything? Well if I see something I view as really dumb it takes me out of the context of the story. That was one of those things for me. Nothing in the Anime version of that episode took me out of the context of the story so I consider it a great improvement for the one scene at least. I got what the scene was trying to convey without feeling like the writer was metaphorically screaming at me. For the me the phrase "Less is more" applies here.
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May 15, 2013 12:34
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Stall_19 posted:Well if I see something I view as really dumb it takes me out of the context of the story. How is it "really dumb"? It's gruesome, but so is the situation.
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May 15, 2013 12:39
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Stall_19 posted:Well if I see something I view as really dumb it takes me out of the context of the story. That was one of those things for me. Nothing in the Anime version of that episode took me out of the context of the story so I consider it a great improvement for the one scene at least. I got what the scene was trying to convey without feeling like the writer was metaphorically screaming at me. For the me the phrase "Less is more" applies here. I disagree. Considering what the scene is about, I find "less is more" fails the scene hard. While it's pretty obvious that he's dead after a little while, it doesn't really do much to show how desperate and insane she is as it stands.
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May 15, 2013 12:40
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King of Solomon posted:I disagree. Considering what the scene is about, I find "less is more" fails the scene hard. While it's pretty obvious that he's dead after a little while, it doesn't really do much to show how desperate and insane she is as it stands. It does to me. To me he was completely obviously dead from the amount of blood and Armir's reaction. I got that she was very out of touch with reality at that moment. They did great work with the facial expressions. I roll my eyes when I feel like the author is trying to hammer it into my skull screaming "LOOK HOW BATSHIT INSANE SHE IS!" The scene in the manga overdid in my mind.
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May 15, 2013 12:57
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Rexides posted:If you ask me, I think that the whole trying to resuscitate a torso was just going for cheap shocks. It might have carried some weight if we cared about the characters, but for me it worked better when it seemed to the viewer that there was still a chance for him. When I saw the manga page, I thought that it was the stupidest thing ever. I might have enjoyed it in Valvrave though. I thought they did a pretty good job at conveying those two were in love prior to that scene, which is the crux of the drama not the viewer's attachment to those specific characters.
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May 15, 2013 13:18
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Stall_19 posted:Well when I saw that that panel from the manga my first thought was that was pretty dumb. I stop thinking in the context of the story and start thinking about it in the context of the person who wrote the scene. Yeah, I understood as much. It does hit hard exactly because it's a scene that few people in the world could ever relate to. It looks foreign and implausible, so the brain realizes/remembers/reminds itself that it's not actually real and the immersion breaks. The weird thing is that showing exactly what Armin saw through his own eyes should actually be more "immersive" than just observing from the audience like in the anime, so to speak. god i wish studying neurology was easier  SC Bracer posted:E: also I have no idea how a person being eaten in half is unrealistic within the context of the story Is this in response to what I said? Maybe it was a bad choice of words, but I didn't mean unrealistic within the context at all, more like... "oh my god this can't be happening" kind of unreal.
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May 15, 2013 13:26
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tiistai posted:Is this in response to what I said? Maybe it was a bad choice of words, but I didn't mean unrealistic within the context at all, more like... "oh my god this can't be happening" kind of unreal. My bad; I was referring to the guy you quoted. I agree with you entirely, but the idea that somehow shadowy angles is more immersive than seeing what Armin does doesn't really work for me, and it definitely isn't unrealistic considering what we know of the setting. I do agree with you though, and that's another reason why I think the shock scene delivers the connotations of that scene better even if it isn't subtle about what it shows visually.
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May 15, 2013 13:44
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Gyges posted:I thought they did a pretty good job at conveying those two were in love prior to that scene, which is the crux of the drama not the viewer's attachment to those specific characters. A crying girl holding her boyfriend's dead body in her arms is drama. A girl doing CPR on her boyfriend's torso is stupid. It's a very subjective thing, I guess, but the scene had more impact on me when I thought that she was still holding hope, instead of going nuts.
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May 15, 2013 13:57
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Rexides posted:A crying girl holding her boyfriend's dead body in her arms is drama. A girl doing CPR on her boyfriend's torso is stupid. It's a stupid thing to do, but people do stupid things. I have no trouble believing that ordinarily rational people would lose judgement in extreme life-or-death circumstances. I know plenty of people who have a difficult enough time staying rational in their day-to-day lives.
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May 15, 2013 14:12
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Oh yeah, I am not saying that it's unrealistic or that it couldn't happen in real life (in fact there was a thread in PYF some years ago that featured a story with a similar reaction). I am just saying that it's stupid. A person dying is tragic, we can all agree here. For fictional characters that don't even have enough screentime to get invested in we need other characters to react to their deaths, but crying and wailing is enough to convey the emotions. Titans are huge assholes who run like retards and devour your hopes and dreams, we get that. What exactly did that scene add to how hosed up the situation is that hasn't been told already? It was just shock value. If anything it downplayed the direness of the situation because it was trying so hard to shock you. That said, if it was just a few seconds between cuts of people reacting to the death and carnage around them in various ways I would have zero problems with it. But the author was dead serious that this is what the reader needed to get into the spirit of Get-Eaten-By-Titans-Land, which I found stupid.
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May 15, 2013 14:38
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I really think the entire beginning of that episode should have been replaced with such a montage. It would have done a much better job conveying the whole "welp, we're hosed" sense of the situation than just following Armin around.
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May 15, 2013 14:58
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Rexides posted:Oh yeah, I am not saying that it's unrealistic or that it couldn't happen in real life (in fact there was a thread in PYF some years ago that featured a story with a similar reaction). I am just saying that it's stupid. A person dying is tragic, we can all agree here. For fictional characters that don't even have enough screentime to get invested in we need other characters to react to their deaths, but crying and wailing is enough to convey the emotions. Titans are huge assholes who run like retards and devour your hopes and dreams, we get that. What exactly did that scene add to how hosed up the situation is that hasn't been told already? It was just shock value. If anything it downplayed the direness of the situation because it was trying so hard to shock you. It gives a foil to compare to. Fresh cadets out of the academy talk about how they're gonna protect each other and gently caress up some titans turn into reality rejecting ball of emotion as soon as their boyfriend dies. Guess what other couple had the boyfriend get his legs chomped on, die and talked about protecting each other?
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May 15, 2013 16:46
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Then again, there is some deliberate choice in keeping the viewpoint limited to a few specific characters view. I don't think we are supposed to get a clear view of the overall situation, just implied (how well the show pulls it off is another matter). And come on, as a non manga reader that sudden censorship was pretty random - we regularly see Titans chomp loving limbs off, but to see it after the fact is too much?
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May 15, 2013 16:51
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Captain Invictus posted:Wow you should stop doing that, how do you enjoy anything? I do that all the time, except it doesn't stop me from enjoying the narrative and I would probably phrase it as "why did the story do this" rather than "why did the author do this." I also think the way the manga did the scene is vastly superior. This is war, it should be shocking to the point of dissociation. Fortunately it looks very much like they darkened that shot for censorship purposes and it'll probably come out clearer in the disk release.
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May 15, 2013 17:38
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Rexides posted:What exactly did that scene add to how hosed up the situation is that hasn't been told already? It was just shock value. If anything it downplayed the direness of the situation because it was trying so hard to shock you. Sorry about the sarcasm, but really, everything about this story is visceral shock being used to create an atmosphere. Showing gruesome things can be a cheap ploy to illicit a reaction... or it can be used to good effect to create a horrific atmosphere. I get that that's pretty much all just subjective nuance, but Attack on Titan is pretty effectively doing the latter in my mind.
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May 15, 2013 19:06
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UP AND ADAM posted:Doesn't it still lose something by not being readily visually apparent? I didn't notice it until I saw the manga page, either. I probably could have been paying closer attention, but they could have made it more gruesome without being unreasonably so. You are definitely right to some extent, but as someone mentioned previously, the subtleties of this medium let's us infer that. By having us infer it, I feel that it adds a strong layer of emotion to the scene, and reinforces their goal with the scene overall. It's more atmospheric, which is a massive bonus point in my eyes.
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May 15, 2013 19:44
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I forced my roommate to watch the series so far. They were whining about not wanting to, that it sounded dumb, etc. By the end of episode 5 my roommate was upset that I had the gall to go to the bathroom before starting episode 6. They were then upset that it was only six episodes so far. The last time they were this interested in a series was when Madoka came out. To think, for the first half of episode one they wouldn't shut up about hating the art-style. Can't wait for episode 7. I ordered the first 4 english volumes of the manga last week. For a series like this that I'm enjoying so much and has a slow enough release schedule, I don't mind buying and even prefer it to reading online unless it were a series like Naruto or any of those other series that comes out weekly and already has 60+ volumes.
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May 15, 2013 19:48
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One of the things people keep bringing up as one of this show's strongest points is how characters act in a way that is rational even in times of stress. Can we at least agree that giving CPR to a torso goes against that? Because I frankly think it makes the scene worse, given we've already had Armin going into shock after episode 5 conveying the same effect much more effectively.
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May 15, 2013 19:48
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I think a better way of putting it is that they act understandably given their individual personalities and the current context.
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May 15, 2013 19:57
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lonephoenix posted:You are definitely right to some extent, but as someone mentioned previously, the subtleties of this medium let's us infer that. By having us infer it, I feel that it adds a strong layer of emotion to the scene, and reinforces their goal with the scene overall. It's more atmospheric, which is a massive bonus point in my eyes. I do agree that the manga depiction was too blatant. I think something in between the two takes on the scene may have worked better? I don't have any ideas for something subtle but as horrifying as showing someone cleft in two, but this shot (http://i.imgur.com/vNa221O.png) is still too muddled, for me personally. TK-31 posted:One of the things people keep bringing up as one of this show's strongest points is how characters act in a way that is rational even in times of stress. Can we at least agree that giving CPR to a torso goes against that? Because I frankly think it makes the scene worse, given we've already had Armin going into shock after episode 5 conveying the same effect much more effectively. Not knowing where the story will go, I have a feeling that bleakness and audacious behavior in the face of said bleakness will come up again and again.
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May 15, 2013 20:04
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TK-31 posted:One of the things people keep bringing up as one of this show's strongest points is how characters act in a way that is rational even in times of stress. Can we at least agree that giving CPR to a torso goes against that? Because I frankly think it makes the scene worse, given we've already had Armin going into shock after episode 5 conveying the same effect much more effectively. Cue any war movie ever where someone desperately tries to resucitate a clearly dead person. Shocked people do not act rationally.
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May 15, 2013 20:08
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Affi posted:Cue any war movie ever where someone desperately tries to resucitate a clearly dead person. Shocked people do not act rationally. To add to this, all of these guys are still effectively trainees/rookies. This is their introduction to the hell that is war.
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May 15, 2013 20:16
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TK-31 posted:One of the things people keep bringing up as one of this show's strongest points is how characters act in a way that is rational even in times of stress.
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May 15, 2013 22:08
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I don't find going crazy in war zones to be particularly unbelievable, especially compared to most things in anime. I don't get how you can complain about that when we have these ridiculous mustache-twirling evil caricatures that represent the elite in their society.
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May 15, 2013 22:10
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ViggyNash posted:I think a better way of putting it is that they act understandably given their individual personalities and the current context. Mercrom posted:I don't find going crazy in war zones to be particularly unbelievable, especially compared to most things in anime. I don't get how you can complain about that when we have these ridiculous mustache-twirling evil caricatures that represent the elite in their society.
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May 15, 2013 22:27
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Also, specifically about this scene (girl resuscitation dead guy), those two were shown to be really close as a couple, maybe even sneak-into-each-others'-room-at-night close. So it makes perfect sense to me that she would lose her head a bit when the person she cares most for in the world is lying there dead. Her denial is understandable.
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May 15, 2013 22:32
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Schwarzwald posted:It's a stupid thing to do, but people do stupid things. Shock will rob people of rational thought easily. If you think somebody doing CPR on half a body is stupid you should realize that one of the more common reactions in dismemberment death is for loved ones to try and put people back together like they're a jigsaw puzzle that will pop back together and stand up.
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May 15, 2013 23:38
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Schwarz said pretty much the same as you. You sure you quoted the right person?
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May 16, 2013 00:15
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Mindblast posted:Schwarz said pretty much the same as you. You sure you quoted the right person? No I'm agreeing with him. The you is a general you.
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May 16, 2013 00:20
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I can't wait for the next episode both because it will stop this kinda played out discussion, and I don't think I would be lying if I said this coming episode is the one I have looked forward to the most. 
Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 03:28 on May 16, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 03:26
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I assumed that 7 was going to be pretty important based on how the last 2 episodes have played out, but you just confirmed that. TOO MUCH HYPE DAMMIT.
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May 16, 2013 05:23
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It's not just about content. From the amount of stills and clearly-skimped animation, I have a suspicion that they are saving up to do the next few eps in style.
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May 16, 2013 08:59
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So far, this really seems like a story that was meant for an animated format. I mean yeah, the comic is good, but the pacing is so breakneck that it's easy to lose track of events (or characters, especially considering how identical some of them look in black and white). Here, the heavy emphasis on dramatic moments, and the amount of build-up make moments like Eren getting loving chomped much more effective.
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May 16, 2013 10:03
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