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L5 Death posted:Okay, could someone please explain what is so good about that game? I've played it twice for a half hour and I just can't get into it. IRC it was just a generic rhythm game. The gameplay is okay I guess but it's not revolutionary or anything. Its garbled, overcompressed soundtrack is loving appalling coming out of the DS's speakers.
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May 17, 2013 08:36
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I've never played it at all. I knew the Aeris-dies spoiler from exposure to nerd culture, and something vague about Cloud's memories being off in some way that didn't mean anything to me because I barely knew anything about the plot in the first place. That's all. After I started reading your LP, I specifically avoided spoilers because it's great reading along and having it all uncovered in this fashion. Everything else I "knew" I "knew" from the fandom, which would show up in all sorts of places. It was precisely the sort of thing others in this thread have complained about, and it made me disinterested in ever picking up the game at the time.
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May 17, 2013 08:50
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FFVII is surprisingly subversive of the very type of game it seems to be. I'm not going to say it's the Spec Ops the Line of JRPGs, but it's noteworthy.
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May 17, 2013 08:54
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Sephiroth doesn't ever call Cloud by name in the flashbacks, does he? But he sees his face, and seems to know his family details. That's your "Cloud who?" explanation right there. Sephiroth is pretty up himself. Someone in a grunt uniform stabs you in the back when you're saying hi to mom, having just killed probably the only other guy on the planet who was a match for you? Fits that he'd make some comment about grunts and/or humans knowing their place Now, the question about "But why doesn't JENOVA split into a hundred little Sehpiroths and fly all over the place?" is a much more interesting one. I need to look back at the chapters just before the JENOVA fights, but it seems to me as if JENOVA is reluctant to fight. Possibly not wanting to weaken itself before fighting WEAPONs? Shinra is trying to stop the Reunion too. Also the Reunion must be necessary, it's a pretty big plot point. Personally I believe there's more about it than "Hah let's gently caress with Cloud". But that's more of an issue about who is in control: Sephiroth or JENOVA. Sephiroth might just want revenge, JENOVA might want to destroy the world. Somewhere in the middle they might meet and give the result we get? As I say, I need to read again. vgperson posted:The Japanese line is "おまえごときに…" It's more like "The likes of you...", which doesn't necessarily show much familiarity. So I'd say Sephiroth doesn't really know Cloud that well, he just knows that he's some grunt who shouldn't matter, thus the disbelief. Quoting this so I can find it again in the future.
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May 17, 2013 08:54
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You might be thinking of Theatrhythm (which is awesome, probably the only worthwhile FF-centric game in the past five years, and I'll not hear otherwise  ).TWEWY is mostly just different. One of the few DS games that really went balls to the wall being a DS game, rather than being a gameboy game with more shiny or a touchscreen game on tiny little screens. More than that, it, along with Nier, stand out as being akin to the sorts of games Square released in their playstation hayday, the only games you can really say that about since the merger. Experimental, steeped in atmosphere, with a really clear aesthetic and gameplay character. It tends to be rather adolescent, but with enough meat in the plot and character writing to hold together under casual examination at least. It's not really a great game necessarily, but one with a clear sense of style and without being a complete vacuum of worth in the plot or gameplay departments. It's the sort of game that, for the right person, can really resonate and stick with them.
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May 17, 2013 08:55
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simplefish posted:But that's more of an issue about who is in control: Sephiroth or JENOVA. Sephiroth might just want revenge, JENOVA might want to destroy the world. Somewhere in the middle they might meet and give the result we get? Don't forget, Sephiroth still has his whole plan of "summon Meteor to nearly wipe out the planet, sit in the middle of all the gathered spirit energy to heal the wound and take it for himself". Then again, you could argue in circles that it's really Jenova's plan and she's manipulation Sephiroth, but I still like to think that they're pretty much the same being at this point, or at least connected so intimately (no, not like that) that their goals are the same. Sephiroth being able to gently caress with the guy who dealt such a blow to his pride is just icing on the cake.
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May 17, 2013 09:00
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CmdrKing posted:You might be thinking of Theatrhythm (which is awesome, probably the only worthwhile FF-centric game in the past five years, and I'll not hear otherwise
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May 17, 2013 09:13
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Which of course is why the biggest flaws of Dissidia (being grindy as gently caress) crop up in Theatrhythm too. Granted, maybe my tolerance for grind is low. I mean, my first RPG was FFVII, where not only is grinding pretty fast if you're determined to do it, but it's hilariously unnecessary once you know the game to any degree. Nevermind that a game like Dissidia has no way for you to effectively go do a sidequest and get cool new gear rather than literally just fighting the same crap over and over for experience. Unrelated to the tangent but way more on topic, I just realized we're coming up on a real boss fight again soon. I wonder if there's any extra special humiliation we'll get to heap on it.
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May 17, 2013 09:22
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I've played through the game twice, and I still found the LP to be quite illuminating. I didn't necessarily have the misunderstanding of Cloud being emo or those other common misconceptions, but the LP did clarify lot of the murky parts that I've forgot or missed. The biggest one that stuck to me is the scene at the Temple of the Ancients when Cloud starts wailing on Aeris. I remember the scene clearly complete with kid Cloud and Cloud getting on top of Aeris, but I was just confused on what exactly Cloud was doing on top of her (I blame the nondescript models and my naivety). And even though I remembered about Cloud just being a lowly grunt, I completely blanked on the flashbacks and the clues especially ones from earlier in the game that all foreshadowed the twist. All on all, wonderful LP and this thread is the first thing I check for when I click the LP forums. I want to see more updates 
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May 17, 2013 09:49
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simplefish posted:Now, the question about "But why doesn't JENOVA split into a hundred little Sehpiroths and fly all over the place?" is a much more interesting one. I need to look back at the chapters just before the JENOVA fights, but it seems to me as if JENOVA is reluctant to fight. Possibly not wanting to weaken itself before fighting WEAPONs? Shinra is trying to stop the Reunion too. Also the Reunion must be necessary, it's a pretty big plot point. Personally I believe there's more about it than "Hah let's gently caress with Cloud". But that's more of an issue about who is in control: Sephiroth or JENOVA. Sephiroth might just want revenge, JENOVA might want to destroy the world. Somewhere in the middle they might meet and give the result we get? Here's the thing, Sephiroth hasn't just been sitting there for five years. He's been absorbing the Lifestream. The knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients (which in materia grants magic power) - which explains how he learned of the Black Materia and Meteor and came up with his plan of wounding the planet to get even MORE Lifestream to absorb. The knowledge of the Ancients would certainly include the truth about Jenova too. (Beyond the Nibelheim flashback, the whole 'mother' thing is basically a red herring, a mislead.) So he uses her head with his crazy demi-god powers to use the Jenova Reunion (a biological function) to have the Black Materia brought to him by the 'clones'. And controlling her headless body (in HIS form) throws pieces of her at you to slow you down. Sephiroth just wants god power. loving with the random dude who stabbed him is probably just a bonus.
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May 17, 2013 09:52
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I think part of the reason this reveal never gets spoiled is because you can't just explain it really quickly or watch it in a 1 minute video. It takes the entire Kalm flashback, going to Nibelheim, and all of these mind sequences (plus other flashbacks) to even sum up.
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May 17, 2013 10:30
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Weighing in as one of those "eh it was okay but it wasn't great" nay-sayers: Elentor, I have to say, your raw enthusiasm for this game, as well as the interesting inserts you threw in (i absolutely loved the information about Rio) actually made me pick it up again. In spite of being one of the people who played it all the way through and came away with a lukewarm impression, seeing you go through it again after all these years has given it a new twist that genuinely caught my interest. I never hated it, honestly. I thought the narrative angles, the execution, and the arc in general, was fascinating. I just faulted the game for having a poo poo lead character. There's been a lot of talk of people 'not getting' the game, or calling Cloud emo dismissively. As one of the people who has openly declared our tepid hero as "emo," I'll say it's largely because I didn't like him, and probably never will. Regardless of the personal reasons I go into, it seems like it's a valid criticism-- the protagonist has such a personal journey throughout the story that, well, if you honestly don't care about him, or don't find it interesting, his narrative gets really old, and really uninteresting, really fast, especially when your interest lies almost entirely in the characters surrounding him instead. I mean, obviously, you're entitled to say Cloud is the best protag ever, but I really just ended up wishing he'd shut the gently caress up, and had a much better time with my playthrough when he was having his ~*~crazy wheelchair time~*~. It's one of the primary reasons I never once bothered to go back and play it. It was hard to care about him, and even harder to give a gently caress about Sephiroth. This might be partially attributed to the fact that, around that time, I was pining for a female lead that didn't suck, but even when I was looking back at it after getting ... something vaguely like that in games that are not Final Fantasy related, I still couldn't quite stomach the idea of being put through his hot mess of head-grabbing "I was never who I wanted to be!!!!" bullshit. Weird as it is to say: I actually didn't particularly like the reveal, specifically because I could relate to it, but I was tired of relating to games through a guy's perspective. That stuck with me for a long time. Bitter backlash, hello! That aside: I'm pretty sure that, that even if he had been female, he still would have been the least interesting of the group, to me. I often times wished he was silent, because he was so intrusive that he was impossible to ignore. The rest of the cast, and the world itself, being rather fascinating made this even more irritating. This LP actually made me change my mind based on the things going on around him, which you've happily called a lot of attention to. I forgot about the wealth of detail the game had. Either way: not all of us who called Cloud emo missed the point. Some of us are just fond of hyperbole and really wished he and Sephiroth both weren't so integral to the plot and themes. EDIT: Added words. Additionally: this not meant to cause some  FEMINISM GAMES FEMINISM derail, this is honestly just my personal feelings on the character in general, and some of the many reasons why he was off-putting to me/why his reveal fell completely flat with me. I knew a lot of people who were super into the narrative, into the characters, who 'got' it, but I was disillusioned by it in a weird way.
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May 17, 2013 10:32
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Elentor posted:While we're at it - how many more of you guys still following the thread have never played the game? I saw some throughout the past pages, and while the input of past players is important, I really, really enjoy reading the feedback from people who never played it before since they come far and few. I've had the game sitting, waiting to be played for a good few years now, but never got through far enough. These revelations and the plot are just amazing, and it's a lot of fun to follow. Makes me want to play along too [once I've completed run the nth run of FFIX], at the first playthrough it was enjoyable from a story perspective, but gameplay never really felt engaging for some reason. Aeris's death was already spoiled from the start for me, but I'd never known who the hell Zack was and why he was an important person to the story, seeing this happen is as big a reveal as any in the game. Thanks Elentor for the journey.
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May 17, 2013 11:46
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An Old Boot posted:Additionally: this not meant to cause some
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May 17, 2013 12:00
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Indeterminacy posted:I think that's reasonable, but Square probably came to FF7 after FF6 and thought "hey, we've done the whole female lead thing already, let's take another look at the standard male protagonist and see how we can turn this on its head". I think it's entirely in keeping with feminism to see FF7 as a deconstruction of male protagonism - Cloud is a critique on the insecurity of the masculine lead. I guess I never thought of Terra as the lead for a variety of reasons, but it's a fair point. Again, I was saying it largely as a personal criticism, rather than anything else. The knee-jerk reaction for why I disliked the character initially. I realize I dislike him for different reasons these days after playing it for a little while, but little_me had her priorities.
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May 17, 2013 12:11
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^^^ No one is going to argue there aren't enough good female leads in video games, but dismissing FFVII because the main character is the wrong gender is stupid. I mean that has nothing to do with "how you feel about the character" it, just "the character didn't pander the my specific personal tastes, waah". And that's not what emo means. I'm sure there's really good criticism on Cloud's character, but I don't think "uninteresting" is especially valid here. I never really cared about his personality that much either, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying from all the moments like this. I would assume Jenova isn't too keen on voluntarily destroying her own body parts, so why do that when you have a bunch of expendable pawns? Or the parts she leaves behind have limited function? Or an atom-smashing pyramid is pretty terrifying to her since it's one the few things that can actually properly kill her or parts of her. Or it might be a plothole even. The bottom line is that what you were supposed to take from the scene is that Sephiroth couldn't personally take the black materia because it was rigged to kill anyone who would. Cloud wasn't the only clone at the Temple either Notice how in none of those scenes where Sephiroth shows up he never really addresses Cloud by name and sometimes even seems to talking to humanity or the clones in general? The only time he really puts effort into messing with Cloud specifically is at the Northern Crater, which was like five minutes after Cloud had taken back the black materia back and Sephiroth needed him to get it back. The only other time he comes to Cloud is also when he needs the black materia from him.
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May 17, 2013 12:14
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So when did Jenova's head come off?
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May 17, 2013 12:32
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You see that thing Sephiroth is carrying after saying hi to mom? Yeah.
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May 17, 2013 12:34
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BioMe posted:^^^ No one is going to argue there aren't enough good female leads in video games, but dismissing FFVII because the main character is the wrong gender is stupid. I mean that has nothing to do with "how you feel about the character" it, just "the character didn't pander the my specific personal tastes, waah". Cool, dude. I think you missed the phrase 'I think' and the word 'partially' in there, but whatever works for you. Just run with it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 17, 2013 12:46
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An Old Boot posted:I guess I never thought of Terra as the lead for a variety of reasons, but it's a fair point. Again, I was saying it largely as a personal criticism, rather than anything else. The knee-jerk reaction for why I disliked the character initially. I realize I dislike him for different reasons these days after playing it for a little while, but little_me had her priorities.  )But I definitely liked Terra and Celes as characters, and they definitely share the "lead character" role for me; it's just a shame that FF6's story wasn't more focused and a bit less "epic".
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May 17, 2013 12:50
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An Old Boot posted:Cool, dude. If you don't want people to comment on your opinion then don't post them. But if you were just describing your kneejerk reaction then it's less silly. First reactions do have a habit of coloring things though, and I didn't really catch what you problem with Cloud was later on. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 17, 2013 13:10
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^^^ take it easy, man. I didn't find Cloud annoying at all. There are so many other things in this game that are annoying, but Cloud is definitely not one of them. He's reasonable and level-headed when he isn't having a breakdown, and his story is cleverly unveiled after pretty subtle hints that take at least a second play-through to discover. He may be weird to people who don't get it, but I wouldn't say he's a bad male character, especially considering the demographic for which Squaresoft was aiming those days.
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May 17, 2013 15:49
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So was Sephiroth's hand glued to his sword or something?
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May 17, 2013 16:07
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Magicbacon posted:So was Sephiroth's hand glued to his sword or something? If a dude is trying to use the very wound you just inflicted on him to seek immediate and violent revenge, you're sort of honor bound to at least see his effort through.
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May 17, 2013 16:12
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Magicbacon posted:So was Sephiroth's hand glued to his sword or something? Probably a combination of not thinking clearly due to being run through with the buster sword, disbelief at what was just happening, and sheer stubbornness of "There's no way he can pull this off, come on!"
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May 17, 2013 16:28
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Frocobo posted:Probably a combination of not thinking clearly due to being run through with the buster sword, disbelief at what was just happening, and sheer stubbornness of "There's no way he can pull this off, come on!" More likely it's sloppy writing that you don't really notice the first time through (I didn't) because it's so balls-to-the-wall awesome.
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May 17, 2013 16:32
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Booties posted:^^^ take it easy, man. Eh, it's not like I care if someone doesn't like FF7. Just pointing out "well I did it because he's a BOY" is a bit less than perfect way to argue that not everyone called Cloud emo for stupid reasons. And "don't comment on what I posted, it's just my opinion that I posted for everyone to see on a message board" is just wasting internet. And I did catch there being other reasons to hate Cloud, but "I wish there wasn't so much focus on him" is a pretty odd thing to say considering he's the protagonists and what the plot of the game is (I mean how would the story exactly work if he was silent?). And it doesn't actually explain why he's a so boring character there shouldn't be so much focus on him. "He's a boy" is the only concrete reason to dislike the character I got from that post.
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May 17, 2013 16:36
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Magicbacon posted:More likely it's sloppy writing that you don't really notice the first time through (I didn't) because it's so balls-to-the-wall awesome. Actually, a death grip is a fairly standard panic reaction. Sephiroth was caught off-guard, injured, and confronted with something he probably felt was impossible- panic, even for him, is entirely reasonable under those circumstances.
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May 17, 2013 16:41
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apostateCourier posted:Actually, a death grip is a fairly standard panic reaction. Sephiroth was caught off-guard, injured, and confronted with something he probably felt was impossible- panic, even for him, is entirely reasonable under those circumstances. It seems to me more like Sephiroth is carrying the idiot ball so that Cloud can seem awesome. Now, if something more reasonable had happened, like Cloud had knocked Sephiroth off balance and he had tumbled into the abyss that way, I could have bought that.
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May 17, 2013 16:50
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Maybe Cloud pushes the handle back into the wound he originally made with the Buster sword and then lifts Sephiroth that way. But really, who gives a poo poo?
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May 17, 2013 16:59
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To be fair it's a bit abstract with the lego-man graphics anyway. The implication could be what's really going on is somewhat less flashy, or it could be Cloud is supposed to be going way more super-saiyan than it looks (eg. the EU interpretation).
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May 17, 2013 17:03
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Everyone, look. It's perfectly simple. Sephiroth stabs through the chest = death. This has been established as an inviolable and metaphysical rule of the FF7 universe. What Cloud did is he ran into the sword to get stabbed in the chest. So now somebody's got to die. It's just a fact. But because he was the one that actually did the action, the laws of the universe mean that it's actually Sephiroth that has to die. So metaphysics necessitates that Sephiroth dies in the quickest way possible by falling into the green goo and being taken over by the evil alien. There.
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May 17, 2013 17:18
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Magicbacon posted:It seems to me more like Sephiroth is carrying the idiot ball so that Cloud can seem awesome. Now, if something more reasonable had happened, like Cloud had knocked Sephiroth off balance and he had tumbled into the abyss that way, I could have bought that. Actually, as someone who taken two psychology classes already, I can say that Sephiroth's reaction was actually not unrealistic, especially given that he had been run through, was probably not used to someone actually being able to kill him, AND had not been catching up on his sleep. I know it's hard to imagine, but you'd be surprised at how badly your mind can freeze up when under extreme stress. In fact, when not trained properly, even cops will fall victim to this thing where they will actually pick up empty bullet shells during a fire fight because they did it so often when training, that it's their reaction when put under stress.
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May 17, 2013 17:42
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Magicbacon posted:It seems to me more like Sephiroth is carrying the idiot ball so that Cloud can seem awesome. Now, if something more reasonable had happened, like Cloud had knocked Sephiroth off balance and he had tumbled into the abyss that way, I could have bought that. No, really. Letting go is pretty hard. Ask anyone who walks the tightrope how hard it is to let go of your balance stick to grab the rope when you fall off.
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May 17, 2013 18:14
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So, I have never played FF7 (maybe I should try it after the LP is over), but why does everyone think that Sephiroth is such a good villan based on the LP so far? I mean, it looks like now that Cloud is back, we'll just go find Sephiroth, beat the hell out of him, and then with the power of ~love~ or something like that Meteor will blow up and we'll have a happy ending. The way I see it, he was a good/great soldier who read some book about Jenova, flipped the gently caress out, burnt a town down, then got beaten by a grunt, and maybe merged with Jenova or something. Now he spent the whole time of the game just to gently caress with Cloud? Sounds like a dude who is just as nuts as cloud but is whiny after losing a fight in the playground in grade school and wants petty revenge.
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May 17, 2013 18:28
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HenryEx posted:No, really. Letting go is pretty hard. Ask anyone who walks the tightrope how hard it is to let go of your balance stick to grab the rope when you fall off. Sephiroth doesn't suddenly fall off a ledge while holding onto his sword, he is deliberately lifted high off the ground then (with equal deliberation) is thrown off the side, all while retaining the presence of mind to marvel at how surprising all this is.
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May 17, 2013 18:28
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I'd like to think that it's more on the line of "Don't you loving dare" and holding on to the sword out of spite. You need some suspension of disbelief for awesomeness.
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May 17, 2013 18:42
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Magicbacon posted:Sephiroth doesn't suddenly fall off a ledge while holding onto his sword, he is deliberately lifted high off the ground then (with equal deliberation) is thrown off the side, all while retaining the presence of mind to marvel at how surprising all this is. I cannot believe i have to explain the difference between an example and a simile here
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May 17, 2013 18:59
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HenryEx posted:I cannot believe i have to explain the difference between an example and a simile here The guy's already dropped a TvTropes term into his argument, I think you're wasting your time.
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May 17, 2013 19:00
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What's wrong with the term idiot ball? It seems like a perfectly descriptive term that got across what I was trying to say: Sephiroth acted in a profoundly stupid manner to enable the plot to move in the desired direction.
Magicbacon fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 19:17
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