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peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted

Torrannor posted:

I hate all combat after the medieval period. I played maybe 10 battles in Empire, after that I let the AI fight all battles for me. Lines of gunpowder units firing on other lines of gunpowder units, interrupted by cannon fire is extremely boring for me. That's why I generally like Shogun 2, but matchlock units are again extremely irritating, and I didn't even bother with FotS. I cringe every time people are demanding a game set in the Renaissance. So I am really anticipating Rome 2, because it is the only setting that has no gunpowder weapons (except Rise of the Samurai).

You can play FOTS as one of the shogun-aligned factions and eschew gunpowder units entirely. Gun lines are boring but carving up those bastard imperial riflemen with your obsolete weapons is pretty fun.

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Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?
I never understood just how you were supposed to play the Shogunate. Are you intended to keep your tech progress at a bare minimum to conserve the bonus to traditional units? I just went for Armstrongs and Kneel Fire. :v:

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Goddammit there is nothing worse than a single cavalry unit or boat running around raiding your buildings or ports after they've been beaten the gently caress up.

The worst part is when they manage to raid like 10 different building types as well as your biggest port so the 10000 dollars you were expecting that turn turns into 3000.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?
The worst part is having all the coast under your control and having to see +200 small fleets move over and over. Once RD hits, you can't just remove "See AI actions" because you'll end up missing an invasion fleet here and there. :sigh:

Shumagorath
Jun 6, 2001
Surely that can't be the worst part when the A.I. gets huge amounts of free units if you don't have five of every agent watching them at all times.

shalcar
Oct 21, 2009

At my signal, DEAL WITH IT.
Taco Defender

Shumagorath posted:

Surely that can't be the worst part when the A.I. gets huge amounts of free units if you don't have five of every agent watching them at all times.

If we are talking about S2 this doesn't happen, fyi.

Autsj
Nov 9, 2011

Azran posted:

I never understood just how you were supposed to play the Shogunate. Are you intended to keep your tech progress at a bare minimum to conserve the bonus to traditional units? I just went for Armstrongs and Kneel Fire. :v:

Nah, just rush those cool big guns, I think somebody in this thread even mentioned historically the Shogunate supporters were as gun crazy as the Imperials. Assuming you're talking about the Aizu, their traditional bonus just means their samurai units remain a little stronger than others throughout the game, but they will still rarely be more than support after the earlier stages.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

FotS actually cuts quite close to the mark in the way that once the crisis becomes a full blown civil war the whole 'traditionalists vs modernisers' paradigm gets thrown out of the window and it's just an old-fashioned power struggle.

Slim Jim Pickens
Jan 16, 2012

Torrannor posted:

I hate all combat after the medieval period. I played maybe 10 battles in Empire, after that I let the AI fight all battles for me. Lines of gunpowder units firing on other lines of gunpowder units, interrupted by cannon fire is extremely boring for me. That's why I generally like Shogun 2, but matchlock units are again extremely irritating, and I didn't even bother with FotS. I cringe every time people are demanding a game set in the Renaissance. So I am really anticipating Rome 2, because it is the only setting that has no gunpowder weapons (except Rise of the Samurai).

If you play a cavalry heavy game, the gunpowder TWs become much more dynamic! I'm not sure if I know how to play the infantry game in Napoleon at all.


Is there an advantage to having the high ground in an infantry shooting battle? Is there a point to doubling up a regiment like the AI does? Does infantry automatically avoid shooting into friendly infantry? I really can't tell, so I play around with horses instead.

PBJ
Oct 10, 2012

Grimey Drawer

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

If you play a cavalry heavy game, the gunpowder TWs become much more dynamic! I'm not sure if I know how to play the infantry game in Napoleon at all.


Is there an advantage to having the high ground in an infantry shooting battle? Is there a point to doubling up a regiment like the AI does? Does infantry automatically avoid shooting into friendly infantry? I really can't tell, so I play around with horses instead.

Fighting on high ground gives you a pretty decent morale bonus, as well as better accuracy. As far as I can tell, friendly infantry will not hit each other when placed behind each other (I could be wrong in this regard).

It's funny, I generally play Empire/Napoleon with armies mainly comprised of infantry and artillery , with cavalry used only to scout out positions and harass the enemy.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Autsj posted:

Nah, just rush those cool big guns, I think somebody in this thread even mentioned historically the Shogunate supporters were as gun crazy as the Imperials. Assuming you're talking about the Aizu, their traditional bonus just means their samurai units remain a little stronger than others throughout the game, but they will still rarely be more than support after the earlier stages.

I can confirm that historically Shogunate didn't mind using Western tactics, equipment or receiving Western support from the dirty French.

And after the Boshin War the Imperials own Shogunate types totally went Last Samurai with the back to the roots thing. Didn't end well for them.

Trujillo
Jul 10, 2007

Autsj posted:

Assuming you're talking about the Aizu, their traditional bonus just means their samurai units remain a little stronger than others throughout the game, but they will still rarely be more than support after the earlier stages.

Unless you do decide to play FOTS using a purely traditional army, which is doable if you learn to really get the most out of the terrain.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Torrannor posted:

I hate all combat after the medieval period. I played maybe 10 battles in Empire, after that I let the AI fight all battles for me. Lines of gunpowder units firing on other lines of gunpowder units, interrupted by cannon fire is extremely boring for me. That's why I generally like Shogun 2, but matchlock units are again extremely irritating, and I didn't even bother with FotS. I cringe every time people are demanding a game set in the Renaissance. So I am really anticipating Rome 2, because it is the only setting that has no gunpowder weapons (except Rise of the Samurai).

I feel the exact same way. The gunpowder units always kill it for me. In Shogun I am making a point to keep those dirty western influences away from my pure medieval country.

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011
I'm certain that Imperialist rhetoric during the Boshin War was to return power to the Emperor because the Shogun wanted more open trade and interaction with the West, and centuries of conditioning, ironically started by Ieyasu himself, as well as fear of Western meddling akin to what happened in Ming China gave the Imperialists the momentum they needed. It pretty much ended up as a good old power struggle as Alchenar said, but with the Imperialists riding on the wave of nationalistic fervor, a jingoistic undercurrent ended up dictating the course of Japan up to the Second World War. Not saying that the Shogunate would've been better of course since the situation was a lot more complicated than what I've written, but who knows how history would've ended up if they won?

In terms of FotS however, going pure traditional is still possible with good terrain management. The AI isn't particularly brilliant anyway so you can get your flanks on relatively easily; however, what sucks is that you'll eventually need cannons since even levy militia pose a serious threat on walls, and that the auto-resolve greatly favours modern units to traditional ones: I've had auto-resolves that had me lose absolutely no men while my traditional-heavy opponent was eliminated completely despite being outnumbered or what have you. In a open fight, I would've either lost that fight or take heavy casualties, but I suppose a computer would be biased for the tech-users...

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

WoodrowSkillson posted:

I feel the exact same way. The gunpowder units always kill it for me. In Shogun I am making a point to keep those dirty western influences away from my pure medieval country.

The usage of Gun Powder as a martial weapon was first perfected by the Ancient Chinese.

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

SeanBeansShako posted:

The usage of Gun Powder as a martial weapon was first perfected by the Ancient Chinese.

I don't want to start a massive derail, but the Chinese did not "perfect" it by any means.

The Chinese invented gunpowder but didn't do much more than dabble in it when it came to military matters (they primarily used it for fireworks and poo poo). It was westerners who learned to actually use it for serious military purposes.

Tyack
Oct 9, 2012
What are the best clans to play a coop campaign in vanilla Shogun 2. Preferably the easiest factions as the person I'm playing with is new to the game.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?

Tyack posted:

What are the best clans to play a coop campaign in vanilla Shogun 2. Preferably the easiest factions as the person I'm playing with is new to the game.

Shimazu (for you). Chosokabe (for your friend). You get access to the two islands from the get go - both are wealthy. Once you have a powerful navy, there's no way they can get into your territory, and you can strike wherever you please.

VirtualStranger
Aug 20, 2012

:lol:
How do I beef up the "major" clans (The ones you can play as) so that they gain some territory early on and don't die on the fist couple turns? I want to be able to face off against some large factions later on in the campaign instead of just rolling over a bunch of tiny clans with one province and 4 units.

On my last playthrough, the Chosokobe literally spent half of the game just trying to get control of Shikoku.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

VirtualStranger posted:

How do I beef up the "major" clans (The ones you can play as) so that they gain some territory early on and don't die on the fist couple turns? I want to be able to face off against some large factions later on in the campaign instead of just rolling over a bunch of tiny clans with one province and 4 units.

On my last playthrough, the Chosokobe literally spent half of the game just trying to get control of Shikoku.

Usually you do end up with big clans, just not necessarily the ones the game designates as 'major'. I've had several minor clans end up as my major antagonists in each campaign.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?

VirtualStranger posted:

How do I beef up the "major" clans (The ones you can play as) so that they gain some territory early on and don't die on the fist couple turns? I want to be able to face off against some large factions later on in the campaign instead of just rolling over a bunch of tiny clans with one province and 4 units.

On my last playthrough, the Chosokobe literally spent half of the game just trying to get control of Shikoku.

I've been using this mod to improve not only the AI, but also the mayor clans.

Shumagorath
Jun 6, 2001

VirtualStranger posted:

How do I beef up the "major" clans (The ones you can play as) so that they gain some territory early on and don't die on the fist couple turns? I want to be able to face off against some large factions later on in the campaign instead of just rolling over a bunch of tiny clans with one province and 4 units.

On my last playthrough, the Chosokobe literally spent half of the game just trying to get control of Shikoku.
For my campaign as Hattori my main antagonists were Chosokabe, Takeda and a Christian Shimazu. My game-winning gambit after realm divide was to catch the main Chosokabe force on the big island and use the Black Ship to prevent them from coming back. They ended the game encircled by their own vassal. Oda were my first major conflict in two early restarts and Tokugawa didn't see the end of the first year.

Unless you're playing a short game I don't see how you can keep all the enemies down long enough for one or two not to own large chunks of the big island. Maybe I allied with too many people and should have had my ninjas be equal-opportunity saboteurs?

Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 23:58 on May 18, 2013

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Chomp8645 posted:

I don't want to start a massive derail, but the Chinese did not "perfect" it by any means.

The Chinese invented gunpowder but didn't do much more than dabble in it when it came to military matters (they primarily used it for fireworks and poo poo). It was westerners who learned to actually use it for serious military purposes.

Bad use of words on my part, but hey they mastered it by default simply by doing it first before everyone else!

Dracneir
Oct 11, 2009

HAHA I TOOK AWAY YOUR SPAESS MAREENE AVATAR FAGGOT :qq: SOME MORE

Azran posted:

I've been using this mod to improve not only the AI, but also the mayor clans.

Does this mod, or any other mods in general, work for multiplayer campaigns if both players have them installed?

Amyclas
Mar 9, 2013

PBJ posted:

Fighting on high ground gives you a pretty decent morale bonus, as well as better accuracy. As far as I can tell, friendly infantry will not hit each other when placed behind each other (I could be wrong in this regard).

It's funny, I generally play Empire/Napoleon with armies mainly comprised of infantry and artillery , with cavalry used only to scout out positions and harass the enemy.

The infantry can fire over each other using terrain differences when placed behind each other. But if you fire into melee, or if your units are just too near the enemy, you'll still massacre everybody.

I like to use either infantry heavy armies for sieges or cavalry heavy armies for raiding and small field fights. I feel that mixing the two just slows everyone down.

Trujillo
Jul 10, 2007
Having trouble installing some mods. Just reinstalled shogun 2 and trying to put a bunch of the radious mods in but the only options in the mod manager are my old mods. I put the .packs in my steamapps/common/total war shogun 2/data folder like it said but they aren't loading. Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.

Autsj
Nov 9, 2011

Trujillo posted:

Having trouble installing some mods. Just reinstalled shogun 2 and trying to put a bunch of the radious mods in but the only options in the mod manager are my old mods. I put the .packs in my steamapps/common/total war shogun 2/data folder like it said but they aren't loading. Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.

There's a bunch of mods that never show up in the mod manager for me (radious and others), think it might have something to do with whether or not they're on the steam workshop? Anyway, they should load fine if they're in the data folder.

Edit: Unless you're specifically noticing them not working in game? Then you might need to check if you've got the latest version/whether or not the mod in question is compatible with it.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
:iiam: but you can install Radious' mods through the workshop, they're all there.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.
Some of the mods load as movie files and not mod files, IIRC they don't show up in the mod manager. It was strangely enough the only way to get my Bayonet mod changes to go through correctly. I think a lot of the unit mods have to do this or the game crashes.

They should be showing up in game though.

PBJ
Oct 10, 2012

Grimey Drawer

Chomp8645 posted:

I don't want to start a massive derail, but the Chinese did not "perfect" it by any means.

The Chinese invented gunpowder but didn't do much more than dabble in it when it came to military matters (they primarily used it for fireworks and poo poo). It was westerners who learned to actually use it for serious military purposes.

I mean, you could just look up "Chinese gunpowder weapons" and see that the Chinese did a lot more than just "fireworks and poo poo" with gunpowder. You know, things like the fire lance (precursor to all firearms), cast-iron HE explosive shells, cannons, and rocketry.

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013

WoodrowSkillson posted:

I feel the exact same way. The gunpowder units always kill it for me. In Shogun I am making a point to keep those dirty western influences away from my pure medieval country.
I go the complete opposite way. Back in Medieval 2, I always tried to build the best barracks possible as soon as possible, so I could begin recruiting hand cannoneers/arquebusiers/musketeers the moment they were available. There is no more rewarding sound than the first crisp, clean volley of musketeers firing. A proper Total War game covering 16th/17th pike-and-shot warfare is my dream, man.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

PBJ posted:

I mean, you could just look up "Chinese gunpowder weapons" and see that the Chinese did a lot more than just "fireworks and poo poo" with gunpowder. You know, things like the fire lance (precursor to all firearms), cast-iron HE explosive shells, cannons, and rocketry.

Which they still did not leverage to any degree of military might that is comparable to the way the Europeans had after they got introduced to gunpowder weapons. To get back to the point WoodrowSkillson made, gunpowder weapons and especially the effective military use came from the Europeans to Japan. There is a reason quite a few military advances in Empire are simple organizational things like "fire-by-rank". So the Chinese may have mastered the weapons, but they were not at good as using them.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?
Honestly, I enjoy the mix of firearms and melee weapons in vanilla and traditional Shogunate armies in FOTS. I just miss crossbows and shields goddamnit.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon

Azran posted:

Honestly, I enjoy the mix of firearms and melee weapons in vanilla and traditional Shogunate armies in FOTS. I just miss crossbows and shields goddamnit.

I really love the Shinsengumi Police Force unit. Rifle-armed unit that can launch Banzai charges? Awesome. Its just a shame that by the time you can build them en masse, they're usually outclassed.

Personally, I think Imperial/Shogunate/Republican Guard infantry should get Banzai too. And Hold Firm. You have to research a special tech, build a unique building, and you can only have three. Shouldn't they be more awesome?

Morzhovyye
Mar 2, 2013

I managed to stick to a single campaign in Empire as Russia. I've just crushed the Ottomans and I'm currently building an army completely consisting of African Native Infantry soldiers to ship to the new world to fight the Inuit. Alternate History is the best history.

VirtualStranger
Aug 20, 2012

:lol:
What benefit do Red Seal ships have over normal trade ships? Do they make more money when they're holding the trade nodes?

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Odobenidae posted:

I managed to stick to a single campaign in Empire as Russia. I've just crushed the Ottomans and I'm currently building an army completely consisting of African Native Infantry soldiers to ship to the new world to fight the Inuit. Alternate History is the best history.

One of the really fun alt-history things you can do as Russia, I find, is to invade India by way of Central Asia. loving the Great Game over a hundred years early.

It's unfortunate that Empire's reinforcement system doesn't really give you the sense of slogging into battle at the end of a hideously long supply chain, though. You just tromp on in, queue up reinforcements, oh look, fighting fit again in two turns smash smash smash.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?

VirtualStranger posted:

What benefit do Red Seal ships have over normal trade ships? Do they make more money when they're holding the trade nodes?

Some people say yes, some people say no. Main benefit is same upkeep for better protection, although if you have a nanban trade ship they're obsolete because one of those and a stack of nine trading ships will guarantee you're protected against anything except the black ship.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?

dogstile posted:

Some people say yes, some people say no. Main benefit is same upkeep for better protection, although if you have a nanban trade ship they're obsolete because one of those and a stack of nine trading ships will guarantee you're protected against anything except the black ship.

I thought the same, but then I realized 7 Bow Kobayas just absolutely destroy Naban trading ships. So it was more of 2-3 Nanban trade ships, and 4 normal trade ships per stack for me. :v:

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Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011
How do Bow Kobayas kill Nanbans? Are you letting them get close? You should be kiting them around the map. Either way, the best solution is of course to autoresolve 10 sengoku bunes against the Black Ship and use that to patrol circles around Japan and sweep the seas clean.

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