|
IBentMyWookie posted:No he's basically wrong. It does come down to egos and laziness. Other than quake every e-sports game is dominated by other regions despite the NA scene being the most lucrative for the players. Ego and Laziness is a pretty bad way of looking at it. There are NA pros who play a lot (voyboy will stream for more hours than a workday) and I wouldn't call that lazy but his stream play is very unfocused. Ego isn't a thing I know about firsthand wrt asian players but I don't think it's terribly unhealthy overall to team performance as long as it's checked. What's important though is that the NA competitive scene is just really stagnant and awful. There need to be more tournaments to actually determine who's the best instead of a Bo1 format league with quite frankly rather sparse play. While the LCS can be entertaining it's not a format that breeds innovation or even that much competition. And yes, the top teams do have regular sponsors but I'd argue there aren't enough NA top teams compared to the competition level in other regions. Funding isn't just a player thing - teams should really expand their nonplaying roles in terms of team management. This isn't really Riot's fault in subsuming these other tournament organizers but rather those organizations' faults for flubbing said tournaments but really there should be more frequent LoL tournaments in North America. And teams definitely shouldn't be owned/managed by active players.
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 16:11 |
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:No he's basically wrong. It does come down to egos and laziness. Other than quake every e-sports game is dominated by other regions despite the NA scene being the most lucrative for the players. North America is really big. The literal physical size of the US and Canada, along with the US government not supporting internet infrastructure like Europe and Korea do are very real limitations to fostering competitive teams for internet competitions. Seoul has 25 million people living in it, and the best internet in the goddamn world. The distance between where Xpecial and Reggie grew up is the same distance as driving the entire length of Korea, and those guys are both in California. The ability to house and provide GOOD internet for a group of 5-10 people is way more expensive/harder in North America. Almost all the teams in EU are regionalized. They're drawing from a much smaller space with much better ability to train TOGETHER. I think it's a bigger deal than you imagine.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
Zoness posted:Ego and Laziness is a pretty bad way of looking at it. There are NA pros who play a lot (voyboy will stream for more hours than a workday) and I wouldn't call that lazy but his stream play is very unfocused. Ego isn't a thing I know about firsthand wrt asian players but I don't think it's terribly unhealthy overall to team performance as long as it's checked. Egos in thinking they don't really need to change despite NA teams underperforming in international competitions. Laziness in that they know what they need to do but yet don't follow through. Either that or they just don't care about winning.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:17
|
|
|
What I am most surprised about is Dyrus mentioning not being used to having a coach and analyst. How do you call yourself a professional team if you don't have people specifcally helping you prepare and improve. There's no way you'll ever catch up to the other regions if you don't start thinking of this as an actual sport where you have an support staff to help you prepare and take the load off of the players.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
I think the gulf is mostly due to the active talent pool and available competition. In that article he goes into the reasons why it is that way, but those aren't the only ones. There's also other issues such as how pursuing a career as a pro gamer is perceived in the US/cultural issues, scarcity of competition, geographic/ping difficulties, and lack of tourneys/events. All of these things kind of tie together to form a less competitive scene. The LCS is nice, but I agree it would also be nice if there were more tourneys happening more often where any random bum team can walk up and take a crack at the best (assuming they win their way into the finals). If a big team in NA really wanted to improve, they could set up a gaming house in Korea like CLG did (though I don't think they stayed there for very long). I think to really get the most out of it they'd need to participate in a whole bunch of tourneys there or possibly even try to stay for an OGN season. e: IBentMyWookie posted:CLG.eu proved all of that wrong as they did very well in OGN compared to Dig and CLG prime. Yeah but do you think they could still hang with the OGN teams today? Why or why not? \/\/\/ Okita fucked around with this message at 22:02 on May 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:21
|
|
|
I don't think the korean players make more money than NA LCS players, as he suggests in that article. I also dislike the meme of NA having no one to compete against to get better. CLG.eu proved all of that wrong as they did very well in OGN compared to Dig and CLG prime. TSM probably the wealthiest team in the entire scene still doesn't have a separate coach and manager. Regi is a terrible boss and really should give it up to someone more mature. Game knowledge can be provided by the players they don't need an expert at the game they need people who can organize and break down the game analytically and help them make better decisions in game.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 21:37
|
|
|
I feel like we're having a conversation along the lines of "what if the greatest baseball player who ever lived was born in France?" There is nothing stopping a French person from being the best baseballman of all time, but they don't have the infrastructure and resources in place to develop baseball players like the United States does. The situation isn't one to one analogous, but there is a bigger gap between resources available than there is talent. The world's best League of Legends player might not have a high speed internet connection. The fact that TSM doesn't have a dedicated coach to do things like break down opponents isn't Dyrus' fault, you know what I mean? vvv "taking care of their day to day lives" isn't some Asian thing. Sports teams have entire branches of their franchises that are specifically about taking care of their personnel. They have chefs on staff, personal trainers, cab service on retainer so no one needs to drive home from a club, make travel arrangements, etc. It's not a giving up independence thing, it's the being a part of a wholly dedicated organization thing. Badfinger fucked around with this message at 23:06 on May 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 22:39
|
|
|
Jack just tweeted:@Cloud9_Jack posted:Quick update for everyone, Cloud 9 (formerly playing under Quantic Gaming) has reformed with me taking the role of owner and GM He's acquired Quantic's players and is now the owner and GM of Cloud 9. I helped him set up the website DNS and stuff :D
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 22:46
|
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:No he's basically wrong. It does come down to egos and laziness. Other than quake every e-sports game is dominated by other regions despite the NA scene being the most lucrative for the players. Money isn't what the article's about, though. I think the two of the main key points are here: MonteCristo posted:They bring a wealth of knowledge of not only how much to practice, but how best to practice. It's nice seeing some NA teams finally start treating this as a job. They may practice just as much as the Asian teams do now, but the first point is the main difference. To me, he's saying Asian teams practice smarter -- making better use of the same amount of practice time. Let's say there are two basketball teams. Both train 6 hours a day or whatever. One of them spends all 6 hours hanging around the neighborhood park, playing pickup games with the local kids. The other team has a strictly-regimented practice plan, with drills, general physical fitness training, in addition to playing actual games (albeit fewer total number of games). Which team do you think will do better? It's no accident why the Asian teams have absurd mechanics. The second point -- it also seems that Asian teams have a lot more support personnel. One person takes care of the day-to-day lives of everyone, which wouldn't work here, because Westerners value independence and prefer to take care of themselves. That's less of scheduling and worrying-about-paying-bills that the players have to do, and thus they can focus only on the game more. Many Asian teams have analysts, and while I can't vouch for what they do, presumably their job is to watch a bunch of games, take notes, pick out the key ones, and watch and discuss them with the players. That way, the players save time by not having to trawl through mountains of vods of varying usefulness. Once again, better use of an individual player's time. It's little things like those that add up. Western teams have a disadvantage because they have to take care of a lot of things themselves. Basically, yeah, they have a mountain of infrastructure that supports them. An a slightly unrelated note, I also wonder how much the fact that NA team "owners" directly play on the team is hurting them. (By "owner," I mean any one person that can say "you're off the team," and that means they're fired -- so Hotshot, Regi, Saint?) I wonder how much of team dynamics become politics and drama because of this. (Also Hotshot is bad.) e: oh looks like everyone's already said what I just said. Move along! e2: Freaksaus posted:What I am most surprised about is Dyrus mentioning not being used to having a coach and analyst. I think he also said something to the effect of "We improved SO much during that one week of boot camp, because we had a coach and analyst and everything. We got so much accomplished." And I was thinking "You think you improved so much in one week? Well the Asian teams have had that for years." vvvvvv Excuse my ignorance, but who's Mark Ferraz? And how was he connected with Quantic? facepalmolive fucked around with this message at 23:04 on May 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 22:57
|
|
|
My thoughts are split on this Quantic thing. Of course the players earned the spot, but I was talking to Mark Ferraz last night and he was really torn up, considering leaving e-sports. I hope for their sake they find some stability. The endgame of this kind of situation is basically Riot buying all the players and teams. Which is good and bad for many reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
facepalmolive posted:vvvvvv Excuse my ignorance, but who's Mark Ferraz? And how was he connected with Quantic? Edit: Guess he's listed as founder and advisor now, he used to be the CEO anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 23:07
|
|
|
Frgrbrgr posted:The endgame of this kind of situation is basically Riot buying all the players and teams. Which is good and bad for many reasons. Riot needs to start selling e-sports to bigger outlets. Razor, Steelseries, and BenQ can't be the sole providers for sponsorship money. As discussed in MonteCristo's article, once big names like Sony or Verizon or HP get involved with sponsorships, teams will have stability. This also requires a cultural shift so that the US and Europe view videogames as more than a distraction for teenage males.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2013 23:11
|
|
|
facepalmolive posted:Money isn't what the article's about, though. I think the two of the main key points are here: Just to clear this up, whether or not its relevant, there is overall more money in Korean eSports, both tournaments and sponsorships. That's why global top eSports earners are almost exclusively Korean. Beyond that, since companies like LG-IM and SK-T provide sponsorships rather than companies like RedBull and TechBargains, there's definitely more corporate support, because companies get a lot more exposure back for their investment in Korea. Not that that's an excuse at this point. facepalmolive posted:An a slightly unrelated note, I also wonder how much the fact that NA team "owners" directly play on the team is hurting them. (By "owner," I mean any one person that can say "you're off the team," and that means they're fired -- so Hotshot, Regi, Saint?) I wonder how much of team dynamics become politics and drama because of this. (Also Hotshot is bad.) About the whole owner thing -- that's got to be a problem. It's amazing to me that people like Hotshot are able to field even a top 4 team. I think a good example of a player/team founder is Boxer, from Starcraft. THough he didn't handle Slayers very well, I think the way that he grew SK-Telecom from a personal brand founded on him and iloveoov to a major, established team is really impressive. On the other side of the coin (from Hotshot), I think that's why Curse, despite its flaws, does so well -- it came from relative obscurity in season 1 and some of 2 because, I think, it's run more like a Korean team. They have a team house. They have a committed B-Team. They have a proper manager, who apparently does analysis as well. I think that that's the direction that things ought to go, and hopefully once the LCS gets more established it will mean that not only will all top 8 teams have the resources to be competitive, but that those who use their resources more optimally (more like the Koreans) will begin to do better. We clearly have the raw talent in America -- I mean, GGU stomped Moscow 5 two weeks after their inception as Team Dynamic. I, personally, can't wait to see what happens when that talent is given a structured environment to flourish in.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 00:57
|
|
RIP ZEEZ
|
IBentMyWookie posted:No he's basically wrong. It does come down to egos and laziness. Other than quake every e-sports game is dominated by other regions despite the NA scene being the most lucrative for the players. What a great, well-reasoned point... Maybe first you should explain why it isn't lack of a coach, lack of infrastructure, lack of real big name sponsorships, the fact that it isn't the most lucrative when you look at sponsors, anything else.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 01:04
|
|
|
semicolonsrock posted:What a great, well-reasoned point... Maybe first you should explain why it isn't lack of a coach, lack of infrastructure, lack of real big name sponsorships, the fact that it isn't the most lucrative when you look at sponsors, anything else. I'm not entirely sure why I need to write a treatise on what boils down to just an opinion but let me try to clarify- the coaching situation is just a matter of choice. CLG and TSM have money. TSM which is sponsored by TeamSolomid.net is worth millions. Velocity E-Sports has two coaches. Curse has a gaming analyst. TSM not having either has been a choice not that they didn't know or couldn't have had someone from their fan community help them out. And when you look at other e-sport games besides starcraft like Dota and Counterstrike you see other countries being dominant without the Korean infrastructure or money. So basically, I think the lack of infrastructure in the NA have been largely a matter of the NA team's own discretion. I also doubt that the Korean players make more than the top LCS players but I could be wrong not counting prize money. I think the NA players had the game longer, had established teams longer and are basically losing to international teams because they are immature and don't work hard/smart enough compared to their competition. You look at other e-sports scenes like the fighting game scene NA is still pretty competitive along with Japan. Although I haven't really followed the fighting game scene in a long time I think this is still the case. Schiavona posted:
E-sports is still a young man's game or is hobbyist. I don't think more than a bare handful in Starcraft made a living beyond their mid 20s. Okita posted:Yeah but do you think they could still hang with the OGN teams today? Why or why not? Regarding CLG.EU I think they could since they have the talent. Right now they seem to have said the gaming house has been a liability so far due to being distracted by all the fun they could have outside the game. Bunch of friends being in a house together that makes a lot of sense. So maybe not when I saw from grilled interviews, Wickd complaining about cooking, laundry, cleaning and dishwashing which is just basic adult maintenance which you need to learn when you start living on your own.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 02:26
|
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:I think the NA players had the game longer, had established teams longer and are basically losing to international teams because they are immature and don't work hard/smart enough compared to their competition. You look at other e-sports scenes like the fighting game scene NA is still pretty competitive along with Japan. Although I haven't really followed the fighting game scene in a long time I think this is still the case. I really don't think you should be comparing anything to the fighting game scene and suggesting it's MORE immature.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 02:29
|
|
|
Badfinger posted:I really don't think you should be comparing anything to the fighting game scene and suggesting it's MORE immature. Yeah, I was merely bringing in the fighting game scene because I know the NA scene is still one of the top players in the scene. Not that it isn't an embarrassment for esports as a whole.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 02:53
|
|
|
People keep saying TSM is worth millions but have they ever come out and mentioned their finances? It could be true but if we are just talking about ad revenue I think people vastly overestimate the earnings on stuff like that, especially after taking into account their expenditures as a company.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 02:58
|
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:I think the lack of infrastructure in the NA have been largely a matter of the NA team's own discretion. I just want to echo this. I saw this happen in Starcraft so drat often, teams focusing on sponsors and ROIs while ignoring actually helping their players get better. Organizations like Team Liquid and EG have picked up player after player because they become notable, yet they never actually seem to get any better despite the larger organization having tons more resources. There are a few exceptions to this, where the player does improve after being picked up by a big team, but for every one there is a counterexample where a player gets worse as well.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:01
|
|
|
I recall reading saintvicious stating he earned roughly as much as a doctor or something like that. It's entirely possible I'm completely wrong but if it's true I think it's fair to assume that TSM can pull some very decent income between streaming, page hits on solomid (and that counterpick site ?), sponsors and money from LCS/other prizes. edit: found the source: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/League-of-Legends/1546/Interview-with-Crs-SaintVicious-about-eSports-in-general He doesn't specify what kind of doctor his income is comparable to so it could be anything between an MD and a Dr. Pepper It's also a year old so yeah take it with a truckload of salt Savage Cracker fucked around with this message at 03:06 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:02
|
|
|
TSM has solomid.net, championselect.net and probuilds.net, all three of those sites are extremely high traffic sites with tons of ad revenue. They have the best sponsored team in North America by far. And they routinely have the highest stream viewers on OddOne, Wild and Dyrus.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:12
|
|
|
Badfinger posted:I feel like we're having a conversation along the lines of "what if the greatest baseball player who ever lived was born in France?" I feel this is exactly. Korea has respected e-sports since Starcraft in 2002. North America is literally a decade behind in the development of infrastructure for e-sports. Think about it, when you tell your friends you are gonna sit down on a Saturday and watch a bunch of video games, how do they react? Compare that to telling your friends you're gonna sit around watching football (note I do both all day when both are in season). A player got kicked out of his house for playing LoL, in Korea they are heroes. As in, legitimate celebrities. It's also important to note this infrastructure also includes practice, work ethic, coaching, ownership structure, and pretty much everything you guys are complaining about.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:14
|
|
|
TheModernAmerican posted:I feel this is exactly. Korea has respected e-sports since Starcraft in 2002. North America is literally a decade behind in the development of infrastructure for e-sports. Think about it, when you tell your friends you are gonna sit down on a Saturday and watch a bunch of video games, how do they react? Compare that to telling your friends you're gonna sit around watching football (note I do both all day when both are in season). A player got kicked out of his house for playing LoL, in Korea they are heroes. As in, legitimate celebrities. Uhm, e-sports isn't respected in Korea. It's a nerd/cult/niche segment that likes it. My wife is Korean and when her cousins came to visit they played Starcraft 2 as a hobby and when I asked them if they wanted to be progamers they said that progamers were losers.  They liked Diablo 3 and warcraft 3. Gaming is not looked upon in a good light by Korean parents and is largely thought of as a waste of time when they could be studying to become doctors.They were loving insanely good compared to me though.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:24
|
|
|
I feel like thats a cop out though. All the top NA teams have gaming houses don't they? All they need is a similar type of training regimen as the Korean teams have to catch up, they don't need to be treated like heroes or make as much money as Korean players, they have everything they need to compete already, they're just not anywhere near as disciplined so yes there is a touch of laziness about the NA scene. All the pieces they need to compete on the world stage are well within the grasp of the players themselves, get a good coach who can help them analyse games and actually treat it like a 9-5 job. One of NAs top midlaners says he wakes up at like 10-11am most days, thats not even loving trying.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:30
|
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:I'm not entirely sure why I need to write a treatise on what boils down to just an opinion but let me try to clarify- the coaching situation is just a matter of choice. CLG and TSM have money. TSM which is sponsored by TeamSolomid.net is worth millions. Velocity E-Sports has two coaches. Curse has a gaming analyst. TSM not having either has been a choice not that they didn't know or couldn't have had someone from their fan community help them out. And when you look at other e-sport games besides starcraft like Dota and Counterstrike you see other countries being dominant without the Korean infrastructure or money. So basically, I think the lack of infrastructure in the NA have been largely a matter of the NA team's own discretion. First off, I agree that it's just dumb for TSM and CLG not to have coaches/analysts and that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot. However, though you're right about the "laziness and ego" of some of the teams in the NA scene, that's definitely not logic that can be universally applied to NA teams. By cherry picking anecdotes about TSM and CLG, for example, you aren't telling a story about League of Legends' eSports in NA, you're telling a story about a handful of particular teams. This story about a couple (admittedly elder) teams isn't really the same discussion everyone else is having, though I think you're right about their problems. quote:I also doubt that the Korean players make more than the top LCS players but I could be wrong not counting prize money. With regard to prize money, only 5 of the top 25 earners in League of Legends are from North America (http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/14/), and they top out at around $60,000 dollars compared to the 200,000 of the top Koreans. Also, lucrative as websites about League of Legends are, the discrepancy between the resources of a team sponsored by, say, LG and one that just gets some keyboards from Razer is pretty vast. The point isn't that the individual players are making more money, the problem is how many resources the organization itself has. Running a team off of a few players prize earnings and some relatively minor sponsors is different than running one that has a number of large, established sponsors and decades of steady cashflow. quote:I think the NA players had the game longer, had established teams longer and are basically losing to international teams because they are immature and don't work hard/smart enough compared to their competition. You look at other e-sports scenes like the fighting game scene NA is still pretty competitive along with Japan. Although I haven't really followed the fighting game scene in a long time I think this is still the case. Basically, I'm not sure you understand what everyone else means by infrastructure. They don't mean having an individual coach or manager on a given team. They mean having a city of 25 million with high speed internet, a culture of PC bangs, decades of eSports experience and professionals, and a culture where, although it may be relatively niche, gaming is relatively a very large part of their culture (your wife's cousins aside). Providing a counterexample of Dota or Counterstrike isn't that relevant. Counterstrike is comparatively tiny (top earnings are about 1/4th that of League, and 1/7th that of SC2), and isn't an eSport that Koreans particularly care about (look at PC Bang numbers). Dota, meanwhile, is dominated by China, that has perhaps different advantages than Korea, but in many ways the same advantages as them (established eSports professionals and organizations, relatively huge fanbase, cultural valuations of practice etc.). The fact is, it's easier to succeed in eSports in Korea/China/even places like Sweden than it is to succeed in eSports in North America. There are more resources available, more human capital, and lower barriers to entry. Perhaps the LCS will change this, and perhaps part of the reason the disparity is as large as it is is because NA teams aren't doing a good enough job of correcting it. But attributing this disparity simply to "ego and laziness" is ultimately too simple to be true. e: As a last thing, I really like the direction that things are headed in the US though. The LCS seems to be consolidating eSports talent in California, and providing a structure for teams to succeed in, and when combined with a better run WCS by Blizzard could be really good for eSports in general. Also this is more times than I've ever written eSports in the rest of my life combined. I am so nerdy. foutre fucked around with this message at 04:01 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 03:57
|
|
|
foutre posted:First off, I agree that it's just dumb for TSM and CLG not to have coaches/analysts and that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot. However, though you're right about the "laziness and ego" of some of the teams in the NA scene, that's definitely not logic that can be universally applied to NA teams. By cherry picking anecdotes about TSM and CLG, for example, you aren't telling a story about League of Legends' eSports in NA, you're telling a story about a handful of particular teams. This story about a couple (admittedly elder) teams isn't really the same discussion everyone else is having, though I think you're right about their problems. True I tend to conflate the two. But that seems to be the narrative of the NA LCS which is dominated by the top four (Dig, Curse, CLG and TSM) it's these teams that are largely responsible for the lackluster results and the impression of the NA scene as a whole. I'm a fan of Dig cause they look like such a bunch of misfits though. quote:With regard to prize money, only 5 of the top 25 earners in League of Legends are from North America (http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/14/), and they top out at around $60,000 dollars compared to the 200,000 of the top Koreans. Also, lucrative as websites about League of Legends are, the discrepancy between the resources of a team sponsored by, say, LG and one that just gets some keyboards from Razer is pretty vast. The point isn't that the individual players are making more money, the problem is how many resources the organization itself has. Running a team off of a few players prize earnings and some relatively minor sponsors is different than running one that has a number of large, established sponsors and decades of steady cashflow. Have you seen the gaming house of CJ Entus? It is decidedly spartan and those guys sleep on bunk beds. The 200k is for winning the S2 world championships and is a Taiwan team not Korean. The NA teams have a huge fanbase that is global so really I don't believe that site if they are claiming the NA teams make overall less money. Either that or the NA teams just fail at marketing. quote:Basically, I'm not sure you understand what everyone else means by infrastructure. They don't mean having an individual coach or manager on a given team. They mean having a city of 25 million with high speed internet, a culture of PC bangs, decades of eSports experience and professionals, and a culture where, although it may be relatively niche, gaming is relatively a very large part of their culture (your wife's cousins aside). NA has a much longer history of gaming than Korea and the reason why we don't have PC bangs is cause we don't need them as most of us have broadband and gaming pcs in our own homes. I just don't buy the argument. Also while my wife's cousins are anecdotal I will take their opinions of their own culture over the opinions of a transplant like Montecristo who has a definite bias. It's like saying anime is a huge part of Japan- it really isn't mainstream and I would say anime is a bigger part of the culture of Japan than gaming is in Korea. quote:The fact is, it's easier to succeed in eSports in Korea/China/even places like Sweden than it is to succeed in eSports in North America. There are more resources available, more human capital, and lower barriers to entry. Perhaps the LCS will change this, and perhaps part of the reason the disparity is as large as it is is because NA teams aren't doing a good enough job of correcting it. But attributing this disparity simply to "ego and laziness" is ultimately too simple to be true. I just don't buy it. We are a wealthier society with more advantages. Our broadband is cheap, our housing is cheap compared to our incomes, we have our own pcs. This argument just flies in the face of the immense wealth/opportunities that is available to NA e-sports gamers. Think about it we have reality celebrities who can earn millions by just being e-famous. The NA gamers while on a much smaller scale can do the same. We have popular streamers like boxbox who just stream out of their own homes. All of our LoL e-sports stars started out just like him. While ego and laziness is a simplification, the idea we have less infrastructure inherently is just laughable. We are a very rich country with our kids having a much higher disposable income. We can make Justin Beiber a multi-millionaire. There is a larger e-sports fanbase in the US than in Korea which is a much smaller country and then when you consider that it's among the kids only and only a percentage of them it is extremely small fanbase compared to the thousands of fans that the big four teams of the NA LCS enjoy. I also don't believe that playing videogames has some inherent talent barrier to entry. Gaming skills are almost entirely built on by dedication and practice. The NA scene has players with the skill to play against anyone 1v1 it's the lack of team practice and study which is the cause of our low performance. Edit: don't want to derail the thread any further but as to the argument of Seoul being a special snowflake I'll just say look at GambitGaming. They are pretty awesome and have none of the advantages Montecristo is talking about. IBentMyWookie fucked around with this message at 05:02 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
IBentMyWookie posted:True I tend to conflate the two. But that seems to be the narrative of the NA LCS which is dominated by the top four (Dig, Curse, CLG and TSM) it's these teams that are largely responsible for the lackluster results and the impression of the NA scene as a whole. I'm a fan of Dig cause they look like such a bunch of misfits though. IBentMyWookie posted:Have you seen the gaming house of CJ Entus? It is decidedly spartan and those guys sleep on bunk beds. The 200k is for winning the S2 world championships and is a Taiwan team not Korean. The NA teams have a huge fanbase that is global so really I don't believe that site if they are claiming the NA teams make overall less money. Either that or the NA teams just fail at marketing. IBentMyWookie posted:NA has a much longer history of gaming than Korea and the reason why we don't have PC bangs is cause we don't need them as most of us have broadband and gaming pcs in our own homes. I just don't buy the argument. Also while my wife's cousins are anecdotal I will take their opinions of their own culture over the opinions of a transplant like Montecristo who has a definite bias. Korea has better internet access than the US overall, actually. Streaming =/= being a good player, and is often counter to it. IBentMyWookie posted:
Koreans are very little poorer than the US if that's what you're implying. They have the advantage of the Brood War proscene, where people got huge amounts of experience learning how to make people practice effectively, with the US doesn't have. E.g. having reach as a coach versus someone like Atlanta, who is doubtless great, but has no idea how to set up a dedicated training regime. Not to mention that they have the advantage of geography -- their esports scene can be concentrated in Seoul, a city whose equivalent does not exist in the US. I get where you are coming from, but there is way more going on here than you think. Korean esports are way better set up than American, but they also have a decade more of organized experience. For a whooooole lot of reasons. e: what the guy below me said. semicolonsrock fucked around with this message at 05:22 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 04:54
|
|
|
I think what it boils down too is that the Korean pro gaming scene is more mature than the NA scene. The brood war pro scene really blazed a trail for how e-sports should function there. E-sports in NA is still in its infant stage and its going to take time to catch up.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 05:09
|
|
|
All stars is live: http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 05:54
|
|
|
Time to see if NA can redeem themselves by beating the Europeans. My eggs are still with the Korean basket but I really want NA to prove they aren't garbage like in S2 World Finals Edit: What a perfect way to start the All Stars stream is broken audio Okkusenman fucked around with this message at 06:02 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 05:58
|
|
|
holy gently caress those rings are intense
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:15
|
|
|
For those who can't watch, here is the ring:
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:20
|
|
|
This sound techie on the English stream needs to be shot. First no audio and now delayed game audio for the start of the 1v1 Top comp between PDD and sOAZ
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:35
|
|
|
SOMEBODY didn't scout the Soaz vs Wickd 1v1 series.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:44
|
|
|
Stanley is sweating buckets just sitting there in a chair, gross
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:49
|
|
|
I'm really enjoying two top laners go at it with AD carries
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:52
|
|
|
Phreak and Joe on the same commentary team is bringing back fond memories of Season 1 Worlds, where Joe's contempt was just bursting through the screen.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 06:57
|
|
|
Jonny Angel posted:Phreak and Joe on the same commentary team is bringing back fond memories of Season 1 Worlds, where Joe's contempt was just bursting through the screen. What's the story they don't like each other?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 07:01
|
|
|
Edit: Last post is me being ignorant. All I can say Nunu is OP
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 07:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 16:11 |
|
|
After watching these 1v1 matches, I feel like they have a really bad format. I think that the organizers, or someone, should have a set of matchups considered balanced and then let the players veto. Or select a random match from a pool of matchups. What seems to happen in every single match is just a counterpick, followed by the player who was unlucky to have first pick getting poo poo on. It's just not fair and it isn't the players' fault. e: in this next match, I'm seeing both players pick at the same time. What? I must be missing something. Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at 07:18 on May 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2013 07:14
|
|