|
Ardennes posted:You can hope to bring them on your side, but that might be mean appealing to some of their issues. As much as I dislike the Tea Party, I really can't say their opinions and votes are meaningless. We can say that regressive ideas which lead to human rights violations do not deserve consideration, and must be defeated rather than accommodated.
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 00:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:We can say that regressive ideas which lead to human rights violations do not deserve consideration, and must be defeated rather than accommodated. The question is do you defeat them with democratic elections, or troops on the streets? This isn't even that much of an academic question at this point. Also, regressive social policy much of the time is rooted in economic inequality and lack of access to education. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jun 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 01:02
|
|
|
The Newman posted:On a hundred different american university campuses, a hundred different lovely young republican groups offered you free pizza at the meeting that night, all you had to do was pretend to be interested in their message. Did that pepperoni persuade you to vote republican? How seriously would you take a pledge to vote a certain way in order to receive that slice? Well, or to pick a perhaps less twee example, the AKP's current mode of operation is how american political machines functioned for like 100 years. It really only stopped because our political system changed into a battle of demographics instead of multiple parties competing for the poor white breadwinner vote. It's more effective than you'd think, because for the most part, few people are willing to accept the charity and then tell their neighbors "lol I voted against the food guy". Then you have an environment where everyone's walking around claiming to vote AKP, and that environment is gonna breed a lot of real AKP voters. That environment can breed a lot of very real political corruption, but it doesn't exactly offend my democratic sensibilities either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 01:21
|
|
|
CNN is reporting a planned US patriot battery deployment to Jordan for an exercise with the understanding that it might stay.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 02:26
|
|
|
If poo poo is so hosed that people can get bribed by coal, a meal, and schoolbooks for their kids, that would in a sane situation offer tremendous potential for gaining votes in democratic means by promising to alleviate that poverty. Instead, it seems like all the anger is directed at the bribes, rather than the poverty enabling the bribes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 03:13
|
|
|
Best Friends posted:If poo poo is so hosed that people can get bribed by coal, a meal, and schoolbooks for their kids, that would in a sane situation offer tremendous potential for gaining votes in democratic means by promising to alleviate that poverty. Instead, it seems like all the anger is directed at the bribes, rather than the poverty enabling the bribes. Within Turkey, it seems a lot of the anger at the party's policy is directed at the fact that after doing those handouts on a constant basis for the past 2 or 3 election cycles, there's still no laws or directives from the government that actually solve the problems that necessitate the handouts. Which would also help all the poor folks who that party isn't providing aid to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 03:17
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:Within Turkey, it seems a lot of the anger at the party's policy is directed at the fact that after doing those handouts on a constant basis for the past 2 or 3 election cycles, there's still no laws or directives from the government that actually solve the problems that necessitate the handouts. Which would also help all the poor folks who that party isn't providing aid to. Granted, the AKP didn't proclaim itself a socialist party to begin with, and to be honest the economy was in far worse shape than before they arrived. It is true the AKP hasn't addressed the roots of poverty in Turkey, but in many ways that was never part of their program, they are big on development not necessarily economic equality. It doesn't make them a good party, but is it more than the "left" wing opposition (CHP) in any honest sense is hard to distinguish from them especially since they are the historical secular establishment party in turn with a fairly elitist reputation. The AKP is able to win votes, because frankly life for poor/rural folks will probably be a bit better for them than under the CHP which traditionally has ignored they even existed period. The AKP beyond the handouts, can point to strong economy growth, improved infrastructure and an expansion of education access (even if many of that education has religious influence). Obviously, most of that growth has gone to the rich, and much of that infrastructure (subways, high speed rail, highways) isn't equally applied but people vote for him because life may comparatively be better for them. Frankly, the CHP when it labels itself as a "social democratic" party is going to have to do more than push secularism and nationalism, it actually has to give a reason for rural/poor people to vote for them beyond later last calls and no headscarf in classrooms.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:12
|
|
|
Zengi posted:As a Turkish guy whose father was detained and literally tortured by the 1980 junta (one of my uncles died and the other escaped to Germany to not suffer this) and the newspapers he wrote for closed by the 1997 junta, I would like to ask you what exactly your family is suffering at the hands of AKP? Also you can tell me how military dictatorship is bad but not that bad. Hmm, I wonder how being detailed and literally tortured by a junta is any different from being detained and literally tortured by a bunch of cops. If anything, the fact that your father went through all that awful stuff should be a reason for you to do everything you can to get Erdogan to resign. The only reason he was "democratically elected" was because he subverted and corrupted the system. quote:In my opinion, the social dynamics that carried Erdogan to the top of the pile remains unchanged, but we will see 8 months later in the municipal elections, or 12 months later in the presidential elections or in the general elections. Unlike Mubarek's Egypt or Assad's Syria, things change in Turkey if enough people vote for the other guy. That is how Erdogan first become prime minister in 2002, despite being (then) an outsider to the system and the established money/power bloc. Look dude. The guy was under a motherf.cking political ban. He used his connections to get AKP founded (while he was still in jail), and when he got out of jail he took charge. If that doesn't make him a snake, I don't know what does. He's the real-life equivalent of a comic-book villain who gets out of a super-prison and starts taking revenge on his enemies (i.e. Kemalists).
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:20
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The question is do you defeat them with democratic elections, or troops on the streets? This isn't even that much of an academic question at this point. The answer is, it depends. The first is always preferable, and is usually an option. It probably still is in Turkey. But there are exceptions. Let's think of a hypothetical, crazy situation in which 55% of the country votes in a Neo-Nazi party. Should they be allowed to implement their policies, just because they won via a democratic election? Not without a fight, I say. Those ideas need to be defeated, first by the ballot box but failing that, in the streets. It gets a bit blurrier, for some, if you're talking about women's equality or access to food, housing and education, but sometimes human rights aren't popular because, as you said, an impoverished, uneducated populace can be driven by fear, ignorance, and insecurity to support all sorts of bad things. Does that make human rights null and void, just because 60% oppose them and 40% support them? No, people still need to fight for them. Why not just wait and make progress, slowly but surely, rather than resorting to "extreme" and "scary" tactics like rioting and direct action? That's sometimes a realistic option, but not always. Martin Luther King, Jr. posted:We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied." Voting is just one of many strategies to advance the cause of liberty, if that fails the fight for liberty should not fail with it. But to reiterate, my preference is absolutely for peaceful, democratic change Yes I'm aware Kissinger used similar rhetoric to justify the overthrow of Allende, but that's irrelevant because I'm not a relativist and I don't believe all causes are equally moral. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jun 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
A set of 80+ photos from Syria; most likely from early 2012 to now. A lot of these are well-known photos (and some obviously  ) but they're still stunning in their own right. I still can't believe that this is happening.http://www.themysteryworld.com/2013/04/a-stunning-set-of-photos-from-syria.html Linked from Syria Comment. Also, don't read the comments on this page...
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:The answer is, it depends. The first is always preferable, and is usually an option. It probably still is in Turkey. But there are exceptions. Let's think of a hypothetical, crazy situation in which 55% of the country votes in a Neo-Nazi party. Should they be allowed to implement their policies, just because they won via a democratic election? Not without a fight, I say. Those ideas need to be defeated, first by the ballot box but failing that, in the streets. Granted, even if your talking about Nazis, having a military dictatorship take over is still going to be questionable. No, I don't want Nazis to take power but I also realize at that point, having the military try to suppress the Nazis isn't going to last and they are only going to come back and become more extremist. If the Nazis had 55% of the vote in 1932, there would have been no way to stop them. Ultimately, I think the issue is that the CHP or another party needs to make an honest attempt to get those votes in an open election. It may take stepping back on some issues, some of the reforms Erdogan has made won't be able to be taken back, such as closing down religious schools. In addition, the CHP might back to get into the nitty gritty of social issues, of the rural/urban poor and how get them on their side. It might actually take short and long term handouts, but Turkey isn't going to be stable if the poor remain ignored. As much as I want social justice in Turkey, I realize there has to be a popular consensus for it. Ultimately, in this case, both sides feel they are advancing the cause of liberty (secular rights versus religious rights) and neither side is willing to back-down unless some really serious compromises happen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:37
|
|
|
Al-Saqr posted:Nice. Maniacal Hyperbole and reductionist thought regarding the AKP (THEM ISLAMS) and their policies mixed in with pseudo-scientific justification for the deprivation of your countrymen of their freedom. The fact that you even leave the door open for the military shows that you have no place to discuss anything amongst people who give a poo poo about freedom and democracy because deep in your heart you hate the fact that your precious ideological dogma is not forced on everyone and if it were up to you you'd go for a full blown 'secularist' dictatorship. The Republic of Turkey was founded on the very secularism that you are shamelessly referring to as an "ideological dogma." This is the equivalent of a new US president being elected and throwing "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" right out the window. How would that fly with people? Democracy is a good thing, but it can only go so far. There has to be certain ideals that are set in stone if a country wants to keep its identity and prevent succumbing to the conditions that caused it to lose its independence. In the case of Turkey, one of the primary reasons its predecessor, the Ottoman Empire, collapsed was because the religious cadre gained way too much power and vetoed all the progressive policies and technological advances that would have allowed the country to keep up with the world. Just a small example: when pants were first brought to the Empire, they were rejected and burned by imams on the basis that they would allow the Devil to hide in them. The Devil! Can you believe that poo poo?! Erdogan is not quite at that stage yet, but you can see his hidden thoughts surface from time to time. Calling social media - one of the most popular technologies of our time - a "menace" to society... are you starting to see parallels? Who knows, maybe he believes the Devil hides in Twitter too. I have always believed that, in order to pass accurate and credible judgment on current affairs, one needs to possess a strong grasp of history. This is why Turks are out on the streets. They are witnessing their country regressing back into the middle ages, slowly but surely. You have to remember that unlike Christianity, Islam never went through a period of enlightenment. This is why it can never be allowed to take root in Turkish politics. Never. If this requires a military coup, so be it. (By the way, I lost two relatives in the 1980 coup, so don't try to get on your high horse and talk to me about how bad they are. Trust me, I know.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:38
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Look dude. The guy was under a motherf.cking political ban. He used his connections to get AKP founded (while he was still in jail), and when he got out of jail he took charge. If that doesn't make him a snake, I don't know what does. Political prisoners who don't give up on their convictions = snakes and super villains?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:40
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:If the Nazis had 55% of the vote in 1932, there would have been no way to stop them. The fact that you're likely to lose doesn't mean that you shouldn't fight. But again, I hope Erdogan will just bow to public pressure and make some good concessions, or even resign. I would hate for the military to step in, or for the CHP of all people to come in acting like saviors or a real alternative.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Political prisoners who don't give up on their convictions = snakes and super villains? What is your opinion of mafia leaders who continue to lead their organizations from prison? Do you respect them also for "not giving up on their convictions?"
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 04:59
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Look dude. The guy was under a motherf.cking political ban. He used his connections to get AKP founded (while he was still in jail), and when he got out of jail he took charge. If that doesn't make him a snake, I don't know what does.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 05:11
|
|
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:The fact that you're likely to lose doesn't mean that you shouldn't fight. Sure, they have to be fought but yes, a military or any other coup at that point would be too late, way too late. (What was Von Papen able to accomplish?) Obviously, it is up for leftists and secularists to put up a fight, Turkey deserves better but I hope the CHP especially doesn't fall back into their own ways and hang-ups. Turkey at this point does have a fair amount of wealth, I think it is up for a generation of leaders to make sure it is spread equally and that there is education, especially higher education available if desired. The cycle really needs to be broken. Banning the Welfare (Refah) Party was a mistake, and the 1997 coup shouldn't have happened. It ultimate only lead to Erdogan and his allies to become more embittered as time went on. Turkey was founded as a strictly secular, centralized state, but it was also founded up a 30+ single party dictatorship. There needs to be a new consensus on religion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 05:42
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:What is your opinion of mafia leaders who continue to lead their organizations from prison? Do you respect them also for "not giving up on their convictions?" I don't see the connection between mafia and a political movement, sorry. AFAIK Erdogan was jailed for reciting a poem. If opposing such totalitarianism makes one a snake then hooray for snakes I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 05:43
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:I don't see the connection between mafia and a political movement, sorry. AFAIK Erdogan was jailed for reciting a poem. If opposing such totalitarianism makes one a snake then hooray for snakes I guess. Again you cannot pass such judgments without thoroughly understanding the history behind the country. (I mean, you can, but none of the natives will take you seriously.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 05:47
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Again you cannot pass such judgments without thoroughly understanding the history behind the country. So only Turkish people can seriously discuss Turkish politics? That's a great way to "win" a debate without actually having to answer questions or back up your claims with evidence! OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jun 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 05:54
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Again you cannot pass such judgments without thoroughly understanding the history behind the country. So are all the political prisoners in jail right now for protesting snakes comparable to mafia leaders?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 06:08
|
|
|
A Hezbollah fighter recently returned from Qusayr gives an interview about the situation Syria, with some interesting bitsquote:Is Hezbollah present all over Syria?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 12:56
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Hmm, I wonder how being detailed and literally tortured by a junta is any different from being detained and literally tortured by a bunch of cops. Well people were wondering what would happen if the military stepped in and I offered experience from living memory. enraged_camel posted:Look dude. The guy was under a motherf.cking political ban. He used his connections to get AKP founded (while he was still in jail), and when he got out of jail he took charge. If that doesn't make him a snake, I don't know what does. Politically banning him for flimsy reasons is what made him popular in the first place. Although the image of President Lex Lutordogan is pretty amusing 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:01
|
|
|
So ridiculous.quote:A Cairo criminal court has sentenced 43 people to between one and five years in prison for working for unregistered NGOs in Egypt. I wonder what sentence Robert Becker (who didn't leave the country with his American colleagues) received. http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/73129.aspx edit: Apparently he was sentenced to two years in prison, holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:12
|
|
|
This seems off, but I can't quite say why.quote:A new count of the dead in Syria by the group that’s considered the most authoritative tracker of violence there has concluded that more than 40 percent were government soldiers and pro-government militia members. http://m.mcclatchydc.com/dc/db_112234/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=PGi6ytC9&full=true#display
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:20
|
|
|
Xandu posted:So ridiculous. Closing down CIA-fronts? Sounds good to me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:29
|
|
|
Xandu posted:This seems off, but I can't quite say why. I don't really trust his numbers as anything more than a rough estimate. Both the government and rebels are probably lying their rear end off about their casualty numbers anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:29
|
|
|
Xandu posted:London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights What is with the media using this group as their only source for Syria news? Without fail every time I hear a story about Syria this group is cited. On looking them up I found it seems to be one British shop owner posting (making up?) news out of his basement. How did he become the oracle of the Syrian conflict? It's really worrying when one random guy seems to be the only source ever cited.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 13:58
|
|
|
Clearly it's an alias for BM.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 14:12
|
|
|
7of7 posted:What is with the media using this group as their only source for Syria news? Without fail every time I hear a story about Syria this group is cited. On looking them up I found it seems to be one British shop owner posting (making up?) news out of his basement. How did he become the oracle of the Syrian conflict? It's really worrying when one random guy seems to be the only source ever cited. Not only that, he's "the group that’s considered the most authoritative tracker of violence [by...]"
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 15:13
|
|
|
Ethiopia wants to use the Nile to power itself. Egyptian politicians reacts by saying they'll blow poo poo up and pay rebels to wreak havoc on the country (before realizing they're on live television)quote:Politicians meeting with Egypt's president on Monday proposed hostile acts against Ethiopia, including backing rebels and carrying out sabotage, to stop it from building a massive dam on the Nile River upstream.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 15:24
|
|
|
Just put together a new post on the cluster munitions of the Syrian Civil War.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 15:41
|
|
|
Twee as gently caress posted:Ethiopia wants to use the Nile to power itself. Egyptian politicians reacts by saying they'll blow poo poo up and pay rebels to wreak havoc on the country (before realizing they're on live television)  These guys are cartoon levels of incompetent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 15:47
|
|
|
Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Closing down CIA-fronts? Sounds good to me. Do yo have any actual evidence for this charge? And even if so, how does this excuse their prosecution under an ambiguous Mubarak-era law designed to suppress political activism by requiring government approval? Note that none of these 43 people were convicted of spying, only for failure to register - a failure caused by the government's refusal to grant licenses to any NGO group, despite the NGOs filing the required paperwork. Mind, this is the same government that relies on about 2 billion a year in US foreign aid, which represents ~3.5% of its total governmental spending.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 15:50
|
|
|
Twee as gently caress posted:Ethiopia wants to use the Nile to power itself. Egyptian politicians reacts by saying they'll blow poo poo up and pay rebels to wreak havoc on the country (before realizing they're on live television) I thought this conflict was pretty old? Regardless, it's hard not to understand this level of anger, for generations Ethiopia's leaders liked to threaten the evil Muslims with diverting the river. This dam is, if I'm reading right, on the Blue Nile Gorge? That's a major location, giving them the power to make good on those threats. Ethiopia's 'claim' on the Nile is only invoked when they want to browbeat Muslims and threaten them, this dam seems like a natural progression of that policy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 16:08
|
|
|
Everyone, I wouldn't put too much faith into that World Tribune article. It's not a real newspaper. I mean, look at their "Greatest Hits" and tell me if there's any veracity to their claims.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 16:16
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:I thought this conflict was pretty old? Yeah but the dam discussion just happened. And the Dam will have no impact on Egypt according to experts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 16:28
|
|
|
Twee as gently caress posted:And the Dam will have no impact on Egypt according to experts. According to neutral experts, according to an anonymous Ethiopian official - so maybe not the most reliable source.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 16:48
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:According to neutral experts, according to an anonymous Ethiopian official - so maybe not the most reliable source. Yea forgive me for not 100% trusting an Ethiopian official's recounting of an anonymous expert's study.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 17:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
Looks like France thinks the red line has been crossed:quote:Syria crisis: France's Fabius 'confirms sarin use'
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2013 17:41
|
|