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Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007


Well what's attached to a leash that it made itself?
The punchline is the way that you've been fuckin' yourself




I bought all my racing safety gear for Chumpcar yesterday and I probably should have asked in this thread before doing so. Anybody have anything good or bad to say about this stuff? I already have a HJC AR-10 Helmet that I drilled for HANS anchors that I like quite a bit.

Simpson S19 suit
Simpson hightop racing shoes
Alpine Stars Tech 1 gloves

I had to order it all online so I hope it all fits. :ohdear: I also got a balaclava and socks but I imagine those don't make a huge difference in which kind you buy.

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parid
Mar 18, 2004
Balaclavas can make a huge difference. It will have a large effect on your helmet fit. When I started racing with one, I had to move up an entire helmet size to last 2 hours. Think of it adding half a size to your head. Some of the cheaper ones have seems in bad places. Check the fit, try to find one that isn't bulky in the wrong places.

Here is one of my drivers with a forehead dent from a cheaper balaclava worn for 2 hours in a snug helmet (but a perfect fit without balaclava):



If you like thicker socks, crow has some nice ones.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007

TrueChaos posted:

I honestly don't understand why some people wouldn't point others by... It's a lot of fun trying to keep up with the people ahead of you through the corners.

I've realized that the people who don't give pointbys are often very, very focused on just trying to get around the track. (Also part of the reason they are slow). A sort of sensory overload. There is a lot of stuff happening on track. You're trying to drive fast, you have corner workers with flags, other cars, etc.

Interesting sidenote, one of the best instructors I had while I was doing DE days actually had me stay behind a slower car with a faster driver. He wanted me to watch the car control and how he worked the corners. Every moment on the track is a learning experience even if you're stuck behind a slower car. Try to watch what they are doing and see their mistakes. Figure out why they're slower. Or possibly even faster in certain sections of the track.

aventari
Mar 20, 2001

I SWIFTLY PENETRATED YOUR MOMS MEAT TACO WHILE AGGRESSIVELY FONDLING THE UNDERSIDE OF YOUR DADS HAIRY BALLSACK, THEN RIPPED HIS SAUSAGE OFF AND RAMMED IT INTO YOUR MOMS TAILPIPE. I JIZZED FURIOUSLY, DEEP IN YOUR MOMS MEATY BURGER WHILE THRUSTING A ANSA MUFFLER UP MY GREASY TAILHOLE
Yeah the main way I get better through fast sections of the track is to be behind someone good and see how much harder they can push it. It's amazing when you think you're on the edge and can't do anything else and then you're dicing with someone or trying to keep up with a faster car and suddenly you just took that sweeper 5-10mph faster than you ever had before or thought possible.

It's like, "Congrats, you just leveled up!"

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

c355n4 posted:

I've realized that the people who don't give pointbys are often very, very focused on just trying to get around the track. (Also part of the reason they are slow). A sort of sensory overload. There is a lot of stuff happening on track. You're trying to drive fast, you have corner workers with flags, other cars, etc.

Yeah, this happened to me when I had my first Z06 track day on way too little sleep. My helmet was really sticky against the headrest, which was incredibly distracting trying to turn my head to plan through corners. I'd check the mirror every several seconds and there'd always be a car back there.

Or they're just big-egoed dicks who can't be beat. When I rode along during an instructor session, my car got held up by a guy who was doing everything he could to not point by.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm

aventari posted:

Yeah the main way I get better through fast sections of the track is to be behind someone good and see how much harder they can push it. It's amazing when you think you're on the edge and can't do anything else and then you're dicing with someone or trying to keep up with a faster car and suddenly you just took that sweeper 5-10mph faster than you ever had before or thought possible.

It's like, "Congrats, you just leveled up!"

Gotta be careful with this, on bikes it's easy to get towed into a corner way over your head and have a moment. I'd imagine the same thing happens in cars.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




kimbo305 posted:

Yeah, this happened to me when I had my first Z06 track day on way too little sleep. My helmet was really sticky against the headrest, which was incredibly distracting trying to turn my head to plan through corners. I'd check the mirror every several seconds and there'd always be a car back there.

Or they're just big-egoed dicks who can't be beat. When I rode along during an instructor session, my car got held up by a guy who was doing everything he could to not point by.

Yeah, this guy who wasn't pointing by was running in an older, race prepped car, that he races wheel to wheel. He was running in the advanced group and was clearly just pissed about getting caught, especially by miata's it seemed. He was black flagged for not pointing by, and was asked to leave before the end of the day as a result.

Took apart the rear that was making noise, the inner pad disintegrated and it was metal on metal. I had a stuck caliper pin over the winter, and on the advice of a mechanic I know (who was actually at the track day running his LS1 swapped miata) I sanded it flat and kept running it. Glad I kept the old pads when I switched to the HP+'s.

drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003
luv 2 get custom titles from a forum that goes into revolt when its told to stop using a bad word.

parid posted:

Balaclavas can make a huge difference. It will have a large effect on your helmet fit. When I started racing with one, I had to move up an entire helmet size to last 2 hours. Think of it adding half a size to your head. Some of the cheaper ones have seems in bad places. Check the fit, try to find one that isn't bulky in the wrong places.

Here is one of my drivers with a forehead dent from a cheaper balaclava worn for 2 hours in a snug helmet (but a perfect fit without balaclava):



If you like thicker socks, crow has some nice ones.

This 100%. If you're doing Chumpcar I'd suggest getting two balaclavas, because if you're doing multiple stints in a day there isn't time to dry one and you'll really appreciate not having to put a damp bala on before a late night stint when you're already tired. Also, as parid says, make sure when you're wearing it that there aren't bulky seams. A 90 minute stint at Iowa with a crease in my balaclava resulted in this dent:



More to the point, it was really distracting in the car - I started getting a headache after about 30 min and between that and my cool suit not being plugged in it was a pretty miserable stint. Iowa isn't the most interesting or challenging course, either, so there seemed to be a lot more time to focus on the fact that it felt like someone was pushing a nail into my head.

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Phone posted:

Sadi: you doing CMP in 2 weeks? (more like 10 days)

Nope, need new pads and dont have cash for both pads and track day. Going to be a little while before I hit up CMP again.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
I just bought some DTC-60s for $120 (yay cash discount).

C'mon son!

G-Mach
Feb 6, 2011

TrueChaos posted:

Yeah, this guy who wasn't pointing by was running in an older, race prepped car, that he races wheel to wheel. He was running in the advanced group and was clearly just pissed about getting caught, especially by miata's it seemed. He was black flagged for not pointing by, and was asked to leave before the end of the day as a result.


In my experience it always seems like the wheel to wheel guys are usually a problem during lapping days. I usually have a friend of mine who has autox'd and done lapping days since 91 and has been at all of the tracks in the mid-west (Road America, Mid-Ohio, Gratten, Autobahn, etc.) and he rides with me for the first session at tracks that I haven't been before. This helps a poo poo load with him coaching me and showing me the correct line. As a result I can quickly build off of that and get progressively faster at a pretty good rate.

Often he points out at the horrible lines/bad braking that the wheel to wheel guys take. My friend is a big believer that a person should start off doing Autox and then work up from there. You can put a lot of what you learn in AutoX and apply it to big tracks. I think I'm much better prepared with three years of Autox under my belt, then if I just jumped into lapping days. From what I've seen and heard a lot of the wheel to wheel guys haven't done a lot of AutoX and/or look down on it which I think is a mistake.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

G-Mach posted:

From what I've seen and heard a lot of the wheel to wheel guys haven't done a lot of AutoX and/or look down on it which I think is a mistake.

The kind of car control needed is different between track and autox. There are wrong reasons to look down on autocross, but past a few autocrosses, you'd be pretty much primed for getting your education on track.

NitroSpazzz
Dec 9, 2006

You don't need style when you've got strength!


G-Mach posted:

My friend is a big believer that a person should start off doing Autox and then work up from there. You can put a lot of what you learn in AutoX and apply it to big tracks.

I'll counter this by saying some of the worst students I've had at HPDE's were guys that had been doing Autox for years. Trying to get them to slow down the inputs and smooth everything out usually took a couple sessions before we could even start to really work on proper lines and stuff. To be fair I haven't had to set a speed limit or take the keys away from any past autox guys, they usually at least listen.

Me, I'm decently quick on a road course but absolute garbage at autox. drat I need to finish up the 320i and get a track day scheduled.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007

G-Mach posted:


Often he points out at the horrible lines/bad braking that the wheel to wheel guys take.

Wheel to wheel racing is a totally different beast. You can't always take the best line. Another car may occupy that space. Or, in an enduro you start to wear out your left tires so you have to adjust accordingly. Granted, they might actually suck. :p

Good racers will use safe track time like HPDEs to practice off line racing, different braking points, artificial handicaps, etc. All while trying to keep consistent lap times. HPDEs reward consistency. Wheel to wheel promotes strategy.

An example of driving a defensive line versus the optimal line. The faster line going into this lefthander is to stay far right, going wide, and braking late. However, this leaves a shitton of room on the left. The proverbial door is left open for someone to poke their nose into. It is a slow exit out of the corner and if that guy takes the inside, there is no room to repass even if you exit with a faster speed. You're just stuck behind him. So what you ideally try to do is figure out how to take up as much of the track so in that corner while maintaining a decent line.

c355n4 fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jun 5, 2013

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Phone posted:

I just bought some DTC-60s for $120 (yay cash discount).

C'mon son!

Have you run the DTCs before? How do you like them? Most people I know down here run carbotechs so I was looking at them for my next pads.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
I've run HT-10s on the Miata and DTC -60s on the 2. I like them a lot. The DTC is the replacement for the HTs.

drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003
luv 2 get custom titles from a forum that goes into revolt when its told to stop using a bad word.

G-Mach posted:

Often he points out at the horrible lines/bad braking that the wheel to wheel guys take. My friend is a big believer that a person should start off doing Autox and then work up from there. You can put a lot of what you learn in AutoX and apply it to big tracks. I think I'm much better prepared with three years of Autox under my belt, then if I just jumped into lapping days. From what I've seen and heard a lot of the wheel to wheel guys haven't done a lot of AutoX and/or look down on it which I think is a mistake.

I guarantee you I got more seat time (and therefore more time to learn what I should and shouldn't do) in my first Chumpcar race at Road America than I would have from an entire season of Autocross. And lets face it, it's through practice (and that means seat time) that we improve.

Also, as c355n4 points out, you can't always take the perfect line. You have to learn how to work with traffic, how to drive defensively, how to save the car for your teammates, even things like how to sit in the car and how you interact with the car, that you won't learn in a single lap on your own around a course marked with cones.

I'd imagine Autocross is a quite good starting point for something like hillclimbing though, where you also only have a single run and you have to be on it and perfect from the green flag.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
Autocross is a mixed bag when it comes to translating to the track. I'm just going to focus on the positive aspects because they slightly outweigh the negatives:

1. Being able to read and react to a slide. If you autocross, you'll have some familiarity with getting out of control and you should have some idea what to do. If you don't have an autocross background, I would think that having baby's first slide at 70mph would induce a brown moment.

2. Knowing generally what the driving line should be. It might not be the optimal line, but it'll be drat close.

3. Some knowledge of the vernacular. Basic vocabulary allows a driver to improve faster and in a more meaningful way because you don't need to explain understeer and oversteer for 30 minutes. This is mostly a communication thing.

4. Goal setting. In autocross you generally can only focus on one or two areas specifically per run due to the nature of the beast. This transfers over well because you can focus on one or two things for a session, and you'll still have like 3 more 25 minute sessions later on in the day to work on other things.

Autocross has its own issues, but I think that the progression from autocross to track days to wheel-to-wheel racing is probably the best for a self-financed enthusiast.

Hog Obituary
Jun 11, 2006
start the day right
My first motorsport experiences were autocross and I wasn't that happy with the experience. I just got lost in a sea of cones and just felt frantic trying to react to everything so quickly. I did it a couple more times and got better, but since the course was always brand new it's not like you could really learn it. Also spending the whole day out there just to get 3 runs is awful (California)... and then having to work the course too.

Spending time at the track and doing ChumpCar/LeMons was far more satisfying.

Octopus Magic
Dec 19, 2003

I HATE EVERYTHING THAT YOU LIKE* AND I NEED TO BE SURE YOU ALL KNOW THAT EVERY TIME I POST

*unless it's a DSM in which case we cool ^_^
Autocross is too uptight for me.

G-Mach
Feb 6, 2011

Phone posted:


Autocross has its own issues, but I think that the progression from autocross to track days to wheel-to-wheel racing is probably the best for a self-financed enthusiast.

That was kind of my point that I really didn't get across or explain very well. At my local autox I can get 8-10+ plus runs which helps. I can't imagine wasting a day only getting 3 autox runs in so I can see were doing a chumpcar race would be much better in terms of dollar/experience per hour ratio. If you are only able to get 3 runs in for autox I'd rather just do lapping days then.

Then, again during the winter I do time attack/practice on a 1-2ish mile road course on frozen lakes. I probably spend 6+ hours on the weekends on the ice which isn't something the average enthusiast experiences. So my experience is different than most.



Weekend ice racing schedule:
Friday: 8PM-2AM practice
Saturday: 10AM-8PM practice
Sunday: 8AM-6PM timed runs ($25 to run)

There is also a circle track right next to the road course to practice on as well.

G-Mach fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 5, 2013

Voltage
Sep 4, 2004

MALT LIQUOR!
I only got in 3 ~35 second runs at my last autoX, it was fun but holy poo poo what a major waste of time most of the day was. Just waiting and organizing and setting up and working the track and helping on the 'grid' all for less than 2 minutes of wheel time. Also got badly sunburned :supaburn: . I like it, but I seriously need to get to a track, it's really dissapointing I can't go to most tracks in the northeast without a full rollcage in my Miata. I should get a pre-built spec miata or an E30...

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Phone posted:

I've run HT-10s on the Miata and DTC -60s on the 2. I like them a lot. The DTC is the replacement for the HTs.

So another question, do you bias your pads? A few friends run XP-10s front and XP-8s rear but Im not sure I want to bias the front any more than it already is.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
Nope. HT-10s (well now DTC-60s in the front) all around. A stock NA has a tad too much rear bias, but it's kind of a :dealwithit: situation unless if you start swapping brake parts.

I ran HP+s two times (VIR-North, CMP), and on the second day at CMP my brakes weren't exactly confidence inspiring even though I was a novice driver. HT-10s have been a dream and then some.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




Sadi posted:

So another question, do you bias your pads? A few friends run XP-10s front and XP-8s rear but Im not sure I want to bias the front any more than it already is.

Bunch of the time attack miata guys were at the lapping day I was at, and the general consensus amoung them was reversed of what you posted - XP-8's front XP-10's rear, to prevent front lockup before the back. They're all running aftermarket suspension though, and said that typically on stock suspension you can use equal pads, because you can really get the front end of the car to dive meaning more grip/less lockup.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Voltage posted:

I only got in 3 ~35 second runs at my last autoX, it was fun but holy poo poo what a major waste of time most of the day was. Just waiting and organizing and setting up and working the track and helping on the 'grid' all for less than 2 minutes of wheel time.

Holy cow. I hope it was only $20.

Wrar
Sep 9, 2002


Soiled Meat
gently caress autocross. Every time I've gone I get 4 runs at most, you spend more time sawing at the wheel than getting real car feel, etc. It's balls, but doing it once or twice before going to the track is a great idea. I'll probably take the 240 when it's done for shits though.

nollij
Aug 30, 2006

Wait, wait, wait...

When did this happen?!?
Where I used to live, the AutoX we would get 8-10 runs in a day. Unfortunately, they haven't been able to get a venue for the last 2 years and I moved a little ways away.

I went to an AutoX over in Bremerton and only got 3 runs in in the morning and signed up for Time Only in the afternoon. Drove a long ways for a little over 5 minutes of seat time.

Been doing track days and I am hooked. Way more seat time and I am learning leaps and bounds more about car control.

Octopus Magic
Dec 19, 2003

I HATE EVERYTHING THAT YOU LIKE* AND I NEED TO BE SURE YOU ALL KNOW THAT EVERY TIME I POST

*unless it's a DSM in which case we cool ^_^

Voltage posted:

I only got in 3 ~35 second runs at my last autoX, it was fun but holy poo poo what a major waste of time most of the day was. Just waiting and organizing and setting up and working the track and helping on the 'grid' all for less than 2 minutes of wheel time. Also got badly sunburned :supaburn: . I like it, but I seriously need to get to a track, it's really dissapointing I can't go to most tracks in the northeast without a full rollcage in my Miata. I should get a pre-built spec miata or an E30...

Less than two minutes of track time and you get to shag cones for the rest of the afternoon and bake on the blacktop. Nice

the poi
Oct 24, 2004

turbo volvo, wooooo!
Grimey Drawer
I like autocross :( . Although I usually just do the Calclub practices--12 runs, 1 hr of course work. On race days, its only a half day--3 or 4 runs and 1hr course work in the morning or the afternoon. I bought my S2000 to do track days, and started autocrossing just to get a hang of the car, but I haven't missed an autox practice yet, and have done about 30% of the race days. The nice thing about autox is that there's very little penalty for loving up, so you can drive with reckless abandon, if that's your thing.

That said, I've done two track weekend with NASA now, and it's a poo poo-ton of fun, albeit more expensive between entry fees, track insurance, and hotel.

Speaking of which, here's my last session of the day at Buttonwillow 1CW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufgT5xXXQ6U&hd=1

I had great instructors on both days (NASA HPDE 1), and the track crystallized pretty well for me by the second day. Unfortunately my exhaust melted and transmission stopped working. So eh. Some clean laps start around 7:30, but the interesting bit is at the end where I work myself into taking too much speed into magic mountain/phil hill, try to catch up to the apex, and promptly run out of talent!

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

G-Mach posted:

That was kind of my point that I really didn't get across or explain very well. At my local autox I can get 8-10+ plus runs which helps. I can't imagine wasting a day only getting 3 autox runs in so I can see were doing a chumpcar race would be much better in terms of dollar/experience per hour ratio. If you are only able to get 3 runs in for autox I'd rather just do lapping days then.

Then, again during the winter I do time attack/practice on a 1-2ish mile road course on frozen lakes. I probably spend 6+ hours on the weekends on the ice which isn't something the average enthusiast experiences. So my experience is different than most.



Weekend ice racing schedule:
Friday: 8PM-2AM practice
Saturday: 10AM-8PM practice
Sunday: 8AM-6PM timed runs ($25 to run)

There is also a circle track right next to the road course to practice on as well.

I actually think of all non-HPDE stuff, Ice did the most to make me a better track driver. Smooth means a whole different thing on ice.

G-Mach
Feb 6, 2011

nm posted:

I actually think of all non-HPDE stuff, Ice did the most to make me a better track driver. Smooth means a whole different thing on ice.

I agree ice racing is a great benefit. Have some crappy video of me and not so crappy videos of some local ice racing.
These are videos of the shorter of the two courses. On another lake the course is over 2 miles. On regular winter tires I would be in 5th grear in full boost in the straights on the 2+ mile course. I'm typically in third and fourth on the shorter course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVArhegntmU

Here is a typical timed lap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDHKZ3msQsM

Practice laps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cipxMYCMqkk

Practice on the circle track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRDMyJLQjE0

Out of car video (with dubstep)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eptkR_Fxr-A

500HP EVO

Salami Surgeon
Jan 21, 2001

Don't close. Don't close.


Nap Ghost
I wish I liked autocross, because track days are expensive.
But my one and only autocross day was not a good experience, so I started tracking and never looked back.

Crustashio
Jul 27, 2000

ruh roh
Autocross is fun because it's cheap competition and you get to meet lots of different people, and shoot the poo poo while working the course. It's also the only motorsports my friends will commit to doing on a regular basis. But our region is a bit different - 20-30 competitors is the norm, 45+ is a record. So you get to know everyone and half the reason to go is to socialize.

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004
Autocross depends on the venue. I've done parking lot ones and didn't like it, the ones I currently run are at an airfield and a lot of fun and much higher speeds. It doesn't necessarily make you able to be a track monster on the first outing but it does give a nice base of car dynamics understanding to go from with a low risk factor which are necessary for 10/10ths driving at the track. Learning to maximize acceleration by rolling into throttle just enough where the rears start to slide a little is far less rear end clenching at 40mph in an open venue than at the limerock death corner.

Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jun 7, 2013

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007

I still love Lime Rock Park. Forgot I had video from my last race there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAYjiwq01MA

nollij
Aug 30, 2006

Wait, wait, wait...

When did this happen?!?
miss heel toe, instead foot slips between the two pedals to the floor and you get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtXvtyQhNg

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007

nollij posted:

miss heel toe, instead foot slips between the two pedals to the floor and you get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtXvtyQhNg

whoops! Yours? At least you had tons of runoff :p

nollij
Aug 30, 2006

Wait, wait, wait...

When did this happen?!?

c355n4 posted:

whoops! Yours? At least you had tons of runoff :p

Yep! Last weekend at the Ridge Motorsports Park in Shelton Washington. Pretty new track so plenty safe with runoff room everywhere. Was my first time doing a significant off.

nollij fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 9, 2013

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drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003
luv 2 get custom titles from a forum that goes into revolt when its told to stop using a bad word.
The windscreen wipers are a great touch! I did the same when I lost a wheel at Brainerd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VzOYnd6Cws :D

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