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cletepurcel posted:I always love Bunny's reaction - at that point, I think, he doesn't even care about Hamsterdam, he's madder that the mayor (or more accurately, his staff) barely even looked at Hamsterdam Jr in season 4. If only he knew.. Absolutely. Remember, from Bunny's point of view the last dealing he had with Carcetti was supposed to be his last ditch effort to save their school program, which Carcetti's aide attends instead and summarily dismisses. At that time, Bunny was terrified that HIS presence was going to be a liability because of Hamsterdam, and if he's mad about anything it's about the Mayor's lack of interest in a program that was seeing real (if small) gains. But Carcetti is completely unaware of it, talking to Bunny about something he's probably stopped thinking about/bothering with, and if anything he's probably thinking,"This son of a bitch is nothing but an empty grin in a suit."
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Jun 15, 2013 09:07
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cletepurcel posted:The trouble with this argument is that he gives zero sign after that decision of actually being a guy who could help out Baltimore from the governor's office. Bottom line is that Carcetti sold out the second he started to listen to that DNC woman who came in after he won, and told him he could be governor in 2 years if he did the "right" thing. I think that Odell Watkins says it best early in season 5, it's pretty thin for a guy to run for governor after <2 years of status quo poo poo as mayor. It wouldn't have even made him unelectable. That's a tough decision, but a defensible one. He couldn't bear the thought of a liability forcing him to wait another cycle to burnish his resume.
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Jun 15, 2013 14:07
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The exchange in his living room with his wife sums it up succinctly. Wish I could find a clip. It's from one of the last Season 4 episodes.
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Jun 15, 2013 16:01
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cletepurcel posted:People don't talk about this decision as much, but one of the last things Carcetti does as mayor - in order to aid his own campaign - is redirect a bunch of money to the Congressman (I think) in PG County, in return for said congressman not challenging him for governor. Is that how is happened? Can mayors just straight up send a bunch of money to another city? If memory serves, what the congressman does is make Carcetti promise he'll earmark one dollar for PG County for every dollar he earmarks for Baltimore once he's governor.
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Jun 15, 2013 16:17
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I know this isn't necessary where the rest of the thread is, but I just watched the second to last episode of the first season, and gently caress man. gently caress, why you gotta be like that to Wallace. 
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Jun 15, 2013 18:48
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Quandary posted:I know this isn't necessary where the rest of the thread is, but I just watched the second to last episode of the first season, and gently caress man. gently caress, why you gotta be like that to Wallace. I started watching season 4 of friday night lights and imagine my surprise to see him all grown up!
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Jun 15, 2013 18:56
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awesmoe posted:Hilarious backstory for this one http://davidsimon.com/gus-triandos-1930-2013/ I'd read this before, but this little tidbit is something amazing that I missed the first time. quote:But four days later my cellphone rang and Triandos was on the line.
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Jun 15, 2013 18:57
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Starting my fourth re-watch of this show tonight with a friend who has never seen it before. He is also an avid fan of the Sopranos, so I'm curious as to what he thinks. Snotboogie.
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Jun 15, 2013 19:04
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I don't think I could handle being with someone while they're watching it for the first time, starting from the very beginning. I'd probably get frustrated while they climb over the initial "what the hell is going on?" hurdle for the first few episodes and want to be like "DON'T YOU SEE HOW BRILLIANT THIS IS???"
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Jun 15, 2013 19:10
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Ainsley McTree posted:I don't think I could handle being with someone while they're watching it for the first time, starting from the very beginning. I'd probably get frustrated while they climb over the initial "what the hell is going on?" hurdle for the first few episodes and want to be like "DON'T YOU SEE HOW BRILLIANT THIS IS???" Depends. I've been slowly going through the process with my parents when I'm over and they're really loving it. They tended to watch most police procedurals so the only real hump was getting used to all the characters and the fact that the cases would take a while, along with a few other Hollywoodisms. They'd also get a bit confused at "setup" scenes that only paid off later but they've gotten used to that now, I think. They're addicted now 
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Jun 15, 2013 19:21
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:Is that how is happened? Can mayors just straight up send a bunch of money to another city? If memory serves, what the congressman does is make Carcetti promise he'll earmark one dollar for PG County for every dollar he earmarks for Baltimore once he's governor. Right, I'm misremembering. it puts the lie to his claim that he'll help Baltimore more when he's in Annapolis though.
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Jun 15, 2013 19:33
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The one bad thing about the Wire is that any (or i should say most) police procedural you watch after you've seen it is about as hokie as an episode of Barney and Friends.
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Jun 15, 2013 19:50
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Mahoning posted:The one bad thing about the Wire is that any (or i should say most) police procedural you watch after you've seen it is about as hokie as an episode of Barney and Friends. Or even any show that tries to touch upon related themes. Like in the season of Friday Night Lights I've just started, Wallace's mom is a drug addict (type cast much???) and he hangs out with the stereotypical "gangsta" crowd, but it all seems so, so, so fake compared to The Wire, I kind of just have to grit my teeth and bear it until the scenes end.
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Jun 15, 2013 20:02
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Mahoning posted:The one bad thing about the Wire is that any (or i should say most) police procedural you watch after you've seen it is about as hokie as an episode of Barney and Friends. NYPD Blue and Law & Order used to be some of my favorite programs too Elements of them are still enjoyable to watch, but compared to the Wire they actually seem so... I don't know.... lacking?
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Jun 15, 2013 23:59
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Ainsley McTree posted:Or even any show that tries to touch upon related themes. Like in the season of Friday Night Lights I've just started, Wallace's mom is a drug addict (type cast much???) and he hangs out with the stereotypical "gangsta" crowd, but it all seems so, so, so fake compared to The Wire, I kind of just have to grit my teeth and bear it until the scenes end. Yeah I was just gonna say when someone mentioned FNL - I recently watched it and it instantly became one of my favorite shows of all time, but Vince's gangster buddies never seemed remotely threatening (it didn't help that one of them was named Kenard, when the Wire's Kenard was ten times as scary). On that note, it's a great thing when D'Angelo shows up as a guest star later that season, but I can't understand why they never reunited him and Wallace for a scene in that episode 
grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 00:54
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Jerusalem posted:NYPD Blue and Law & Order used to be some of my favorite programs too Law & Order is still fun (read: real-ish) as long as you stay away from SVU. There's a lot of weird hysteria in some of the early seasons though.
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Jun 16, 2013 01:16
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Jerusalem posted:NYPD Blue and Law & Order used to be some of my favorite programs too To be fair I find that pretty much all TV that isnt also made by HBO or the guys behind Breaking Bad is also pretty goddamn shockingly lowest-common-denominator about all things - even hannibal which is better than 2 out of 5 of the films, pales in comparison to the storytelling of the wire or the sopranos or something like that. I wish all tv was made to be one long awesome story like that 
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Jun 16, 2013 01:20
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cletepurcel posted:
They didn't reunite anyone on "The No-Brainer" episode of Fringe either; which had Daniels, Frank Sobotka and Chris all in the same episode in entirely separate scenes.
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Jun 16, 2013 01:25
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One thing I really like about the relationship between Daniels and Pearlman is that they clearly establish the chemistry and mutual respect between them over the first two seasons, so when they finally do end up together, it feels totally natural. You kind of get the sense that McNulty was the second choice, and Daniels had too much integrity to cheat on his wife (before they separated, obviously).
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Jun 16, 2013 03:45
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Protocol 5 posted:One thing I really like about the relationship between Daniels and Pearlman is that they clearly establish the chemistry and mutual respect between them over the first two seasons, so when they finally do end up together, it feels totally natural. You kind of get the sense that McNulty was the second choice, and Daniels had too much integrity to cheat on his wife (before they separated, obviously). I dunno man, I reckon he's not even her second choice, for her mcnulty represented her dark side, her carefree / careless side that she didnt get to show as Mrs. Tough As Steel prosecutor
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Jun 16, 2013 03:56
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Gonna dredge up an old post, sorry. I finished The Wire just a few days ago and I've been reading through this thread since yesterday.cletepurcel posted:It's really frustrating because the intrinsic message of season 5, which is entirely in subtext, is basically this, to quote Simon: if you think the media is ever going to give a poo poo about any of the sort of stories and problems portrayed on The Wire, think again. The most important thematic moments in season 5, by design, are blink-and-you-miss-it or nonexistent altogether - when Prop Joe dies, Gus doesn't recognize his name; the police department is falling apart because Carcetti chose to reject the state money and nobody reports on this; when the Marlo investigation shuts down, nobody from the paper even thinks about it. To me, this is just as powerful a message as any of the other 4, but it's not executed that well for the reasons above. And there are some potentially great stuff about the media that gets abandoned, like the whole "less is more" thing. One other part that I thought touched on this really well was just after Omar's death; Gus asks what Alma's got for him to fill a small section before deadline and she mentions that she's got a fire and a homicide by a small kid; Gus says to nyx the shooting and go with the fire. And thus Omar gets written off without a eulogy or even a god drat paragraph in the newspaper after being shot by a nobody.
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Jun 17, 2013 15:22
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Minrad posted:
Maybe he doesn't end up in the papers, but he goes down as a legend on the streets. As we saw in Marlo's last scene, Omar's death is played up to ridiculous proportions and he goes out like it's the last stand at the Alamo to a lot of people who heard it second/third hand. Not to mention all of the stories of his previous adventures that already made his name ring out (not that he ever really cared if it did). This, of course, is what Marlo wanted. For his name to ring out. But Omar destroyed that and as evidenced in Marlo's last scene the two corner boys don't give a poo poo who he is. In death Omar won.
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Jun 17, 2013 15:32
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Ainsley McTree posted:I don't think I could handle being with someone while they're watching it for the first time, starting from the very beginning. I'd probably get frustrated while they climb over the initial "what the hell is going on?" hurdle for the first few episodes and want to be like "DON'T YOU SEE HOW BRILLIANT THIS IS???" I'm watching this with my girlfriend and it's her first time through. Luckily though she's already up to mid season 5, but it's hard because she is a little confused on what McNulty and Freamon are doing (although I was too the first time through), and she really wants Omar to get Marlo and I just have to bite my tongue.
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Jun 17, 2013 16:12
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Meltathon posted:I'm watching this with my girlfriend and it's her first time through. Luckily though she's already up to mid season 5, but it's hard because she is a little confused on what McNulty and Freamon are doing (although I was too the first time through), and she really wants Omar to get Marlo and I just have to bite my tongue. I could deal with the newspaper storyline and McNulty's shenanigans, but it always felt way out of character to me to have Freamon go along with his scheme, and so willingly to boot. I know he was plenty dedicated to doing real police work over politics, but the whole fake killer didn't seem to be "making the case that's there" as he said before. Admittedly it's been about 3 years since my last season 5 watch, is it better addressed than my memory attests?
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Jun 17, 2013 18:24
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Lugaloco posted:Maybe he doesn't end up in the papers, but he goes down as a legend on the streets. As we saw in Marlo's last scene, Omar's death is played up to ridiculous proportions and he goes out like it's the last stand at the Alamo to a lot of people who heard it second/third hand. Not to mention all of the stories of his previous adventures that already made his name ring out (not that he ever really cared if it did). This, of course, is what Marlo wanted. For his name to ring out. But Omar destroyed that and as evidenced in Marlo's last scene the two corner boys don't give a poo poo who he is. That's all true, but the part that I really connected with was the point about how nobody gives a poo poo what happens on the streets. You've known Omar for five seasons and his death is a huge shock; if anyone was gonna "beat" Marlo, it had to be him. And then you get a reality check of "Haha yeah no, nobody really gives a poo poo outside of the hood."
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Jun 17, 2013 18:53
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It made sense for Freamon to go along with the scam, as he takes as much pride in his personal convictions and mores as McNulty. However, Freamon can put on airs of civility and indolence that McNulty can't, which makes that aspect of him easy to ignore unless you're paying attention.
CPFortest fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jun 17, 2013 |
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Jun 17, 2013 18:56
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Thaddius the Large posted:I could deal with the newspaper storyline and McNulty's shenanigans, but it always felt way out of character to me to have Freamon go along with his scheme, and so willingly to boot. I know he was plenty dedicated to doing real police work over politics, but the whole fake killer didn't seem to be "making the case that's there" as he said before. Admittedly it's been about 3 years since my last season 5 watch, is it better addressed than my memory attests? I think Freamon justified it in his mind because they were on the case originally and then he had to move to the Clay Davis stuff, so it's what he was supposed to be doing all along. Plus he probably justifies it that what he's doing would be legit, if they had enough funding to properly work the case. I can't remember if he specifically defends his actions to someone at the end of the season, I'll have to rewatch and see.
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Jun 17, 2013 19:42
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Meltathon posted:I think Freamon justified it in his mind because they were on the case originally and then he had to move to the Clay Davis stuff, so it's what he was supposed to be doing all along. Plus he probably justifies it that what he's doing would be legit, if they had enough funding to properly work the case. I can't remember if he specifically defends his actions to someone at the end of the season, I'll have to rewatch and see. Honestly I think something like the fake serial killer is the reason Freamon didn't quit when he was originally hidden away in the pawn shop unit. He really finds his place in the department over the course of the series, but I always got the feeling that he's been more than willing to give it all up for the right cause since day one. He's like one of those Musketeers who's been hiding out waiting for the chance at an honorable death.
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Jun 17, 2013 20:58
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Minrad posted:Gonna dredge up an old post, sorry. I finished The Wire just a few days ago and I've been reading through this thread since yesterday. One thing that kind of bothered me about Season 5 on re-watch that I didn't really notice before was that Gus kind of comes across (to me, anyway) as a deified version of David Simon himself; he's a smart, savvy, above-all-the-bullshit guy with no real obvious flaws, which kind of sticks out in a series where most of the characters are flawed in some way. But now that you mention it that way, I guess he's actually just sort of another cog in the broken machine; he doesn't take pains to shed light on any of the real problems of the city, like you mentioned in your post. He does his job well, but I guess at the end of the day he's just another schmuck (just a likeable one, I suppose).
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Jun 17, 2013 21:08
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Ainsley McTree posted:One thing that kind of bothered me about Season 5 on re-watch that I didn't really notice before was that Gus kind of comes across (to me, anyway) as a deified version of David Simon himself; he's a smart, savvy, above-all-the-bullshit guy with no real obvious flaws, which kind of sticks out in a series where most of the characters are flawed in some way. He has journalistic integrity, but that's it. I mean, hell, at the end of the day you can even say loving Scott does more for the undesirables of Baltimore through shedding light on the homeless situation in the city (and if Carcetti wasn't such a slimeball he would've even gotten more of the aid they needed out there, remember how he okays a few FEMA style trailers to show how he's "trying" to help them?). Even if Scott's stories were built on half truths and some complete bullshit and a desire to see his own career advance, you can still say he does more for the city than Gus ever did.
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Jun 17, 2013 21:54
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Ainsley McTree posted:One thing that kind of bothered me about Season 5 on re-watch that I didn't really notice before was that Gus kind of comes across (to me, anyway) as a deified version of David Simon himself; he's a smart, savvy, above-all-the-bullshit guy with no real obvious flaws, which kind of sticks out in a series where most of the characters are flawed in some way. I always thought that was kind of the point. Gus sees himself as a crusading journalist, one of the last of the Old Guard who knows everything and everyone and is so disappointed that the new kids aren't living up to the standards he remembers reminiscing while smoking in the loading dock with the other old timers. But in truth, he's every bit a part of the problem: he's rather spineless and meek for someone who's supposed to be heading up a major department, he's not nearly as omniscient as he thinks (Omar's death standing out huge here), nor as ruthless as he needs to be (I can't imagine a proper editor letting a damning unattributed quote "from Nerese Campbell" run without letting the fact checkers confirm it). He could have stomped out Scott early on, but kept giving him the benefit of the doubt, and we all know how that turns out. He's the Peter Principle to a T, a guy promoted just high enough for him to be incompetent. I'm reminded a bit of Garcin from Sartre's No Exit. He can't stop lying to himself about how great and noble he is, but when you compare his actions and his words...
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Jun 17, 2013 22:24
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Spoilers Below posted:I always thought that was kind of the point. Gus sees himself as a crusading journalist, one of the last of the Old Guard who knows everything and everyone and is so disappointed that the new kids aren't living up to the standards he remembers reminiscing while smoking in the loading dock with the other old timers. But in truth, he's every bit a part of the problem: he's rather spineless and meek for someone who's supposed to be heading up a major department, he's not nearly as omniscient as he thinks (Omar's death standing out huge here), nor as ruthless as he needs to be (I can't imagine a proper editor letting a damning unattributed quote "from Nerese Campbell" run without letting the fact checkers confirm it). He could have stomped out Scott early on, but kept giving him the benefit of the doubt, and we all know how that turns out. He's the Peter Principle to a T, a guy promoted just high enough for him to be incompetent. Eh, he tries to get Scott out of the way a few times but there's always a higher-up boss there to stop him. In general I'll say they're a bit more heavy-handed with Gus' actions/morals than most characters on the show. We already see the guy's doing his due diligence elsewhere--was that stupid scene where he wakes up and calls in to confirm 2 numbers in a minor story really necessary?
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Jun 17, 2013 22:53
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The big problem for me is that Simon didn't really get across that all of Gus' talents have been turned inward, and while he's slopping around in the muck of his chosen battlefield to preserve the "integrity" of the paper he's forgotten to actually, you know, investigate and report the news. It's admirable in a way that he makes what seems like a self-insert such a flawed character once you look deeper, but by keeping the focus so much on Gus' crusade and making only a couple references here and there to the stories going unreported it's easy to miss and perceive Gus as a badly written super-character who is totally awesome and right. It doesn't help that his superiors are written with seemingly no nuance or subtlety at all, they're gaping idiots with apparently not a journalistic bone in their bodies, and that terrible scene where Gus totally owns his editor right to his face is basically The Wire: poo poo That Didn't Happen.txt - probably one of the worst scenes in the entire history of the show. I'll write up the next episode tonight or tomorrow if nobody else is going to do it, and I'll keep writing up a new episode every 3-4 days after that. If somebody wants to do a write-up of a particular episode, then do it before I can get around to it - no more waits of 2 weeks between episodes! /knocks back bottle of Jameson.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:04
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Jerusalem posted:The big problem for me is that Simon didn't really get across that all of Gus' talents have been turned inward, and while he's slopping around in the muck of his chosen battlefield to preserve the "integrity" of the paper he's forgotten to actually, you know, investigate and report the news. It's admirable in a way that he makes what seems like a self-insert such a flawed character once you look deeper, but by keeping the focus so much on Gus' crusade and making only a couple references here and there to the stories going unreported it's easy to miss and perceive Gus as a badly written super-character who is totally awesome and right. It doesn't help that his superiors are written with seemingly no nuance or subtlety at all, they're gaping idiots with apparently not a journalistic bone in their bodies, and that terrible scene where Gus totally owns his editor right to his face is basically The Wire: poo poo That Didn't Happen.txt - probably one of the worst scenes in the entire history of the show. Yeah this is what I think I meant to say, I just didn't know it. Gus' story wouldn't be half as bad if his bosses weren't Wall Street stereotypes.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:13
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Parachute Underwear posted:Yeah this is what I think I meant to say, I just didn't know it. Gus' story wouldn't be half as bad if his bosses weren't Wall Street stereotypes. I love David Costabile, but I wish they had written a better role for him.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:22
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The other boss is even worse. Isn't he even named "whiting?" It might as well be "Whiteboss Von Patriarchy"
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Jun 17, 2013 23:37
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cletepurcel posted:Stringer and Randy both had the dream growing up of owning some grocery stores Haha, Stringer as the petit-bourgeois shop owner. Buy for one sell for two but with dreams of going big. He's going to start a franchise someday, y'see. He'll slowly grow his business by prudent decisions and solid understanding of economics, he even took classes at the local community college. Sadly what he's not aware of the limits of his own understanding. The game's rigged, and it doesn't at all work the way eco101 textbooks will tell you. His little podunk store ain't never gonna be the next Wallmart. But he tries and works hard and keeps outta trouble, just an all-american hard working shop owner dreaming of doing a little better. That'd be Stringer if he wasn't from the ghetto. If he didn't have to do deal with too much race related poo poo he might even be one of those black people who votes Republican, cus they're good for small businesses like his, or so he believes. You see, it's business for him and he's willing to let certain things slide. Yeah he knows there's some race related nastiness in the past, but the current party is different, honest, they even had Cain up there in the primaries leading the polls dontchaknow? I dunno, maybe I'm way off, but that's sort of the naivete I'm starting to see in Stringer upon deeper reflection caused by this thread. Avon not from the ghetto might make it big, but Stringer the big successful business man? I just don't know if I see it. As somebody said, 10 year old understood the street better than he did, and he was just as much from those streets as they were. Alternatively maybe he'd be stuck in middle management somewhere with dreams of promotion.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:47
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Jerusalem posted:It doesn't help that his superiors are written with seemingly no nuance or subtlety at all, they're gaping idiots with apparently not a journalistic bone in their bodies, and that terrible scene where Gus totally owns his editor right to his face is basically The Wire: poo poo That Didn't Happen.txt - probably one of the worst scenes in the entire history of the show. This is yet another bit where another episode or two probably would have helped. Or a couple minutes early on, really: one scene with David Costabile at the dinner table at night, his head in his hands as he looks at a series of earnings reports and subscription figures spread out in front of him, next to an a half empty bottle of wine and an empty glass. The Sun is hosed financially, and everyone is going to lose their jobs as the parent company cuts back to a skeleton crew who will rewrite AP stories like in so many other towns. Kristen Schaal enters through the doorway and says "Tom, come to bed. The problem will still be there in the morning." He looks up at her with that weary expression he does so well and sighs. Cut to Sam Freed on the phone a day or two later, explaining that he knows he's over budget, and yes, he's got a guy already working on it, but negotiating these things takes time so they don't have any legal trouble on their hands. Convey that Freed is one of the highest paid guys at the paper, and a perfect target for the new owners "clearing out old wood." He hangs up and calls his old friend Gene Robbins, they bitch about the dire state of the newspaper industry for a bit, his points and concerns very similar to Gus'. He expresses anger that the paper mostly publishes statistics and generic rubbish coupled with a few opinionated assholes bloviating for 2000 words about how the world should give them a blow job for pointing out that the politicians in charge suck, rather than getting to the emotional core of things like they did in the old days, stories that moved you to do something about the problem, that accurately portrayed just how life is for real people with real problems, rather than just laughing at the poor unfortunates whose live are worse than yours. "Like Charles Dickens?" Robbins offers. Robbins reminds Freed that he could always get a job teaching if he could keep a thing quiet for him... Granted, this would also require Simon not to completely despise the two people the characters are based on, but no one's perfect.
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Jun 18, 2013 00:17
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^^^ exactly. To compare it to Rawls again, since we see the police from the perspective of the mayors office, we can see the pressures he's under; he may be an rear end in a top hat but he's not the reason the numbers game exists. The way Simon lays it out, the Sun's numbers game (Pulitzers instead of made up crime stats) exists because of these pretentious editors.Ainsley McTree posted:The other boss is even worse. Isn't he even named "whiting?" It might as well be "Whiteboss Von Patriarchy" The only saving grace is that he already used the real name of his hated Sun editor for another despicable character (Lt. Marimow). I think I've said this before but it's frustrating how in the early episodes with the Sun, the strawman editors actually lay out the deeper problems - the paper is run by a huge company far from Baltimore, they have to compete with the Internet, etc - and yet for whatever reason it focuses on the two editors and never really returns to this institutional accountability thing (even though in previous seasons this was there, if sometimes in subtext). You never get the sense that, while assholes, the two bosses are ultimately just representatives of their institutions, the same way Rawls and Burrell are. That being said, I think Gus being Simon's self-insert is forgivable because I'm pretty sure the same thing is done with Bunny Colvin and Ed Burns, but for whatever reason it works with Bunny and not with Gus. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 00:23
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Jerusalem posted:
I'll have the next one done tonight, sorry about that. I started on it Friday but other obligations got in the way so I couldn't get back to it until this evening.
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Jun 18, 2013 00:24
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