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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

SatansBestBuddy posted:

Maybe I should stop reading every spoiler in this thread and actually read the books...

Nah.

You hadn't figured that out already? People make jokes about it constantly. The show does too, if you approach it with the foreknowledge.

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veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Clarste posted:

You hadn't figured that out already? People make jokes about it constantly. The show does too, if you approach it with the foreknowledge.

Pretty much everything that sparks the incident off happened already. Just slightly differently.

Going off on her own, getting her rear end kicked by an enemy who's stronger than she expected, betraying ITEM to save her own skin only for Meltdowner to show up right after.

Meltdowner really doesn't have any intermediate settings besides kill and maim.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo
Light novel spoiler: So that's what "Fre_nda" and "Fre|nda" are referencing. I can't decide whether that's clever or just morbid.

JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jun 17, 2013

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen

JosephWongKS posted:

So that's what "Fre_nda" and "Fre|nda" are referencing. I can't decide whether that's clever or just morbid.

Oh my god, I didn't even get that :stare:

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?
You could say that Frenda is half the woman she used to be! ho ho!

Arianya
Nov 3, 2009

tonberrytoby posted:

I would think that Kuroko at level 5 would get more fine control over her power. More similar to Accelerator's powers then to something flashy. Being able to teleport flying bullets behind her. Or probably a sensing ability too.

I think it's the telefraging.

Its pretty clearly telefraging from the scene where Kuroko collapses a building by teleporting sheets of glass into supporting pillars. Presumably she could teleport those pins into peoples internal organs if she was so inclined, but instead she goes for the clothes.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?
I'd hate to see Kuroko with a large piece of sheet aluminum. That, and literally throwing a spanner in the works by telefragging machinery via teleporting a spanner into it.

Misaka using Kuroko's metal spikes as railgun ammunition would certainly be a thing as well.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Conot posted:

Its pretty clearly telefraging from the scene where Kuroko collapses a building by teleporting sheets of glass into supporting pillars. Presumably she could teleport those pins into peoples internal organs if she was so inclined, but instead she goes for the clothes.

Being a more or less normal schoolgirl(crazy lesbian aspect aside) in law enforcement, she has to be very careful with power usage so as not to seriously cripple someone. It's not like electricity where she can leave you just mostly numb.

Redcrimson
Mar 3, 2008

Second-stage Midboss Syndrome
Honestly, a level 5 Kuroko would probably be story-breaker levels of overpowered. Crazy Esper on the loose? Just teleport him directly into an Anti-Skill holding cell. Problem solved.

Dan7el posted:

What's the deal with all the Kamijou Touma hate?

He completely loses his memory in the first arc of Index and it pretty doesn't affect his character at all. You know your character is bland when what amounts to a complete reset leaves him exactly the same. It's used more as an excuse for people to monologue exposition at him.

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006

Anime_Otaku posted:

I also now have the image of an L5 Kuroko doing a bit from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on Misaka.

:ohdear:

Douglas Adams posted:

I teleported home one night
With Ron and Sid and Meg.
Ron stole Meggie's heart away
And I got Sidney's leg.

Zettace
Nov 30, 2009
On the other hand, Touma doesn't hold back against anyone, neither the old or children are safe from getting punched in the face by Touma. He's also gender neutral in his face punching which is a refreshing change of pace. If you're an rear end in a top hat you are going to get your face punched no matter who you are.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos
A L5 version of teleportation would probably have to broaden the concept, most of the L5s are either stupid powerful(Sogita Gunha, full mind control, creation of unobtainium) or work with fundamental forces(Vectors, Wave-Particle duality, Electromagnetism). Teleportation doesn't really meet the former criteria, it's flexible, but not enough, so it'd probably go with fundamental force manipulations. Spatial manipulation could apply, as could a ranged version of Accelerator.

Of course, offensively we know L5s have power resistance amongst each other to some degree, at least with direct kill moves. Mental Out can't control Railgun, while Dark Matter and Accelerator are likely out because they can bullshit anything at all. Similarly Accelerator(LN spoiler) can't just explode Dark Matter on a touch, it came down to a heavy hitting brawl. Personal theory is their powers interfere when doing anything too fancy at point blank.
Besides, the Magic side has established that magicians possess some native resistance to magic. The same process might be in play on the Science side.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
Look teleportation is and has always been brokenly powerful when applied by anyone with a lick of creativity, which means it has to always be toned down by authorial amnesia.

And after reading the manga, I will never forgive Touma for constricting Railgun's story. I know that Touma must go and fistsolve Accelerator, and that's all well and good, but after the incredible drawn-out fight with Frenda and Mugino, it's completely boring. Plus it completely sidelines Misaka. This is her personal nightmare after exposure to the true, amoral nature of Academy City. Does she respond in kind against the City that betrayed her? Does she recruit some of its many many enemies? Does she expose or threaten to expose the City's dirty laundry so that it might lose its standing? Does she even ask her friends, considering the last couple episodes of Railgun are about not going it alone? No! It's time for this zero charisma rear end in a top hat to turn up and save the day.

Edit: wait no, I'm actually incredibly stupid and judgemental. It's just Touma vs Accelerator that is terrible (I assumed that would have been the end of Sisters Arc). I've caught up with Chapter 60, and holy crap that revelation! I certainly didn't expect that character to have that particular motivation!

Phobophilia fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jun 17, 2013

Anime_Otaku
Dec 6, 2009

That's not the part I thought of, there's a bit where it's mentioned dinner parties would be livened up by teleporting the hostess' underwear 3 feet to the right.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry

Phobophilia posted:

Look teleportation is and has always been brokenly powerful when applied by anyone with a lick of creativity, which means it has to always be toned down by authorial amnesia.

And after reading the manga, I will never forgive Touma for constricting Railgun's story. I know that Touma must go and fistsolve Accelerator, and that's all well and good, but after the incredible drawn-out fight with Frenda and Mugino, it's completely boring. Plus it completely sidelines Misaka. This is her personal nightmare after exposure to the true, amoral nature of Academy City. Does she respond in kind against the City that betrayed her? Does she recruit some of its many many enemies? Does she expose or threaten to expose the City's dirty laundry so that it might lose its standing? Does she even ask her friends, considering the last couple episodes of Railgun are about not going it alone? No! It's time for this zero charisma rear end in a top hat to turn up and save the day.

Edit: wait no, I'm actually incredibly stupid and judgemental. It's just Touma vs Accelerator that is terrible (I assumed that would have been the end of Sisters Arc). I've caught up with Chapter 60, and holy crap that revelation! I certainly didn't expect that character to have that particular motivation!
The current manga arc is pretty compelling. I really like what they've done with Mental Out and I hope she continues to be a major character in this side of the story. That said, the last few pages of chapter 60 are worrisome. I think it'll be temporary, though, as there's a bunch of stuff happening at this time in Index that would require that person's attention.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012

Anime_Otaku posted:

That's not the part I thought of, there's a bit where it's mentioned dinner parties would be livened up by teleporting the hostess' underwear 3 feet to the right.

While I don't remember that specific quote, that sure sounds like Hitchiker's Guide.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?

Phobophilia posted:


Edit: wait no, I'm actually incredibly stupid and judgemental. It's just Touma vs Accelerator that is terrible (I assumed that would have been the end of Sisters Arc). I've caught up with Chapter 60, and holy crap that revelation! I certainly didn't expect that character to have that particular motivation!
I know, right? (Manga spoilers) Misaki's reasons were quite a shock. Quite the fakeout they managed. On another note, Misaka thinking she was betrayed by Misaki because she disappeared, but it turns out that she's just out of shape and couldn't catch up.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos
Come to think of it, the Touhou references are piled on a little strong here. The exploding army of dolls aside...isn't the card basically acting as a spellcard? Used to clear a horde of mooks too.

Popehoist
Feb 5, 2008

There you go rubens, all your fault! You went on the wrong side of the car!

veekie posted:

Come to think of it, the Touhou references are piled on a little strong here. The exploding army of dolls aside...isn't the card basically acting as a spellcard? Used to clear a horde of mooks too.

Oh come on, now you're really stretching it.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos
What really brought it to mind was that the word 'danmaku' was actually used in that scene.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

veekie posted:

What really brought it to mind was that the word 'danmaku' was actually used in that scene.

Dolls, maybe, although the series already has its own self-referential doll-bomb joke. The prism-cards is really stretching it though.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?
There's a girl in the Index movie who is a dead ringer for Marisa. Marye Spearhead

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos

Clarste posted:

Dolls, maybe, although the series already has its own self-referential doll-bomb joke. The prism-cards is really stretching it though.

Well, Misaka was thinking, "She can't create a barrage(danmaku)", then Meltdowner pulled out a card and created some danmaku.

Joshlemagne
Mar 6, 2013

Dan7el posted:

What's the deal with all the Kamijou Touma hate?

Mainly the fact that when he shows up in the first season Misaka reverts from being a strong, competent lead character into the terrible harem member she presumably is in Index (don't know since I haven't seen it but that's the impression I got).

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

veekie posted:

Well, Misaka was thinking, "She can't create a barrage(danmaku)", then Meltdowner pulled out a card and created some danmaku.

This falls apart once you realize that danmaku is actually a real word.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich

Joshlemagne posted:

Mainly the fact that when he shows up in the first season Misaka reverts from being a strong, competent lead character into the terrible harem member she presumably is in Index (don't know since I haven't seen it but that's the impression I got).

She's nowhere near as important in the Index anime or light novels as she is in her own shows/side stories. At best, she's an interesting side character who occasionally visits violence on Touma (just like every other girl in the show). Our first introduction to her is basically in passing, then we don't care about her for like half the first season until the Sisters arc begins. After Sisters runs its course in Index S1, she's reduced to cameo appearances during non-important sequences while the real poo poo is happening elsewhere. She returns to some form of prominence during Index S2, but again is far from the actual focus on the plot.

I get that Touma has a lot of issues as a character that make him unenjoyable, but I'm not sure I'd just toss the 'harem' label at the Index series. The focus on the show is a lot less on 'WHAT GIRL IS TOUMA GONNA GET WITH?' (thats more of a rabidly obsessed creepy fanbase sort of thing) and more of 'WHEN IS TOUMA GOING TO PUNCH THE JESUS OUT OF SOME ARC VILLAIN'S ILLUSIONS?' They make a joke or two at Touma's expense on how his arm is cancelling the strings of fate the tie people to eachother (and therefore is the reason why women feel attracted to him), and as you can expect in anime there's a lot of really unfortunate and inexcusable fanservice. However, the blushing-tsundere girl harem antics make up a significantly smaller part of the Index series than Punching, Accelerator Killing The gently caress Out Of Someone, and Generically Heroic Speeches/Moral Preaching.

Index would be a lot more tolerable as a show in general if they gave every story arc the sort of attention that the Railgun arcs have seen. Railgun S2 is basically going to be the definitive animated version of the Sisters arc because of how well they actually build up just how horrible the experiment is, how much they build up Accelerator before we even really get to 'meet' him, and how much world building and character development has occurred in general. My first experience with the franchise came from watching Index seasons 1 and 2, so when I was told just how much light novel content they had managed to adapt into the season, it explained a lot of why everything about the series felt so drat rushed.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
My main problems with Touma are that his harem just keeps increasing in size and his character never develops. The latter issue wouldn't be so serious if he had been even slightly interesting to begin with. It also doesn't help that not a single member of said harem has ever succeeded in being nice to him in any way. A few have tried, but every attempt ends poorly. Being surrounded at all times by people who react to everything you do with either criticism or physical violence sounds pretty unfortunate to me, but that is probably unintentional.

There are also the incredibly verbose self-righteous speeches, but those aren't unique to Touma.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
I'm pretty sure Touma just needed some bitchin' shades and a mole sidekick and everybody would love the gently caress out of him.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
I thought you said moe sidekick and Yoko's not moe and not a sidekick and oh, you meant mole. But that's actually a pig.

No one is as amusing to watch as Kamina.

Edit: oh, you're talking about Simon.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?

Phobophilia posted:

I thought you said moe sidekick and Yoko's not moe and not a sidekick and oh, you meant mole. But that's actually a pig.

No one is as amusing to watch as Kamina.

Edit: oh, you're talking about Simon.
I'm disappointed in you. :(

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
Look I'm only up to episode 8 of TTGL I don't respect Simon all that much.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?

Phobophilia posted:

Look I'm only up to episode 8 of TTGL I don't respect Simon all that much.
Oh my.

UP AND ADAM
Jan 24, 2007

Phobophilia posted:

Look I'm only up to episode 8 of TTGL I don't respect Simon all that much.

Watch more of that show before anything else right now!

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012

Phobophilia posted:

Look I'm only up to episode 8 of TTGL I don't respect Simon all that much.

Finishing this show is now your top priority. Work is unimportant by comparison.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
Uh by episode 8 I meant that was next.

...

It's not like I didn't see that coming, and that spoiler had been percolating through the collective consciousness of the internet.

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.
The reason I hate Touma is shown by the characters approach to the sisters. And the probable plot of the next few episodes.

When Misaka finds out about the sisters:
She goes and uses her ability and skills to find out the truth about them.
Over the course of several days she takes on a war of attrition against the project to stop it without loss of live for anyone. She ruins her health and is almost killed. And she knew this was a probable result.
Manga spoilers from here:
After this fails she gets ready to do some actual terrorism. As far as she knows this will lead to lots of chaos, possible deaths, and her getting arrested. She agonies about that decision and then goes and do it.

After this failed, she makes a plan that involves her committing suicide in a possibly painful fashion.


For comparison this is how Touma approaches the same situation: ( Index spoiler)

He finds out about the whole project by literally bumping into the documents while hiding under a bed.
Then he plans to just beat up Accelerator. Which will stop the project because Touma is the weakest man in the city.
He knows he will succeed because he is the main character, and basically shouts that at Misaka.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012

tonberrytoby posted:

For comparison this is how Touma approaches the same situation: ( Index spoiler)

He finds out about the whole project by literally bumping into the documents while hiding under a bed.
Then he plans to just beat up Accelerator. Which will stop the project because Touma is the weakest man in the city.
He knows he will succeed because he is the main character, and basically shouts that at Misaka.


Its a good thing I don't plan to watch Index because that just sounds shameful.

Having come into Railgun and now Railgun S completely blind, I have to say that Railgun S is fantastic. It may have lost much of the charm of the first season and become a much more serious show, but it makes up for with with a great plot, intriguing characters, and an atmosphere that sells it. It's probably one of the strongest shows this season behind the top dogs like Gargantia and AoT.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry

tonberrytoby posted:

For comparison this is how Touma approaches the same situation: ( Index spoiler)

He finds out about the whole project by literally bumping into the documents while hiding under a bed.
Then he plans to just beat up Accelerator. Which will stop the project because Touma is the weakest man in the city.
He knows he will succeed because he is the main character, and basically shouts that at Misaka.

This is also basically the same approach that happens with every single incident that involves him. For 30+ god drat books.

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

Nate RFB posted:

This is also basically the same approach that happens with every single incident that involves him. For 30+ god drat books.
Only this time we have the comparison to how an interesting main character handles the same thing.

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AtomikKrab
Jul 17, 2010

Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.

tonberrytoby posted:


[/spoiler]
For comparison this is how Touma approaches the same situation: ( Index spoiler)

He finds out about the whole project by literally bumping into the documents while hiding under a bed.
Then he plans to just beat up Accelerator. Which will stop the project because Touma is the weakest man in the city.
He knows he will succeed because he is the main character, and basically shouts that at Misaka.


If Mikoto could simply beat up Accelerator she would have done so as well. In this case the experiment is based on Accelerator cannot be beaten and thus is the best candidate for level 6 training but we have to do it exactly perfectly to get it to happen. If you can succcessfully beat the unbeatable the experiment becomes moot. And Touma does know for a fact he can negate esper powers and thus stands a reasonable chance of putting his fist into Accelerators face.

The real issue is they use this solution for every single thing involving him. Punch their bullshit

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