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Cao Ni Ma posted:You are confused Gaku is Gaku. There isnt such a thing as a "deviant" Gaku or a "Quantum Physics expert" Gaku, she just is It seems to me that there is a Gaku-gestalt of the shared information, but as long as Gaku insists on the distinction of only speaking her part of the phone conversation despite already knowing both ends of it she still exists as a unique Gaku in each universe. Furthermore, the Gaku-gestalt can be quantified by limiting itself to the outcomes Gaku is capable of possessing (hence, there is no God-Empress of Mankind Gaku or such). Finally, the reader's perspective is that of Gaku's "light" metaphor, and we hop through the Gaku-gestalt taking the shortest path to the early-chapter Gaku's desired outcome. We are all the Gaku.
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Jul 12, 2013 16:47
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AfroSquirrel posted:It seems to me that there is a Gaku-gestalt of the shared information, but as long as Gaku insists on the distinction of only speaking her part of the phone conversation despite already knowing both ends of it she still exists as a unique Gaku in each universe. Furthermore, the Gaku-gestalt can be quantified by limiting itself to the outcomes Gaku is capable of possessing (hence, there is no God-Empress of Mankind Gaku or such). Finally, the reader's perspective is that of Gaku's "light" metaphor, and we hop through the Gaku-gestalt taking the shortest path to the early-chapter Gaku's desired outcome. The narrator is the Gaku gestalt.
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Jul 12, 2013 16:54
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So if I'm following this right, then, Gaku can spend her life in one universe training to the peek of human ability, spend her life in another researching the depths of a field, and then choose to combine those two into a world where she's an Olympic-class athlete with the brain of all the PH.Ds ever. It follows with her being able to share knowledge, anyway. Man, looks like poo poo might go dark and I can't wait. I'm honestly really expecting them to show us in detail a Monster Gaku at some point.
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Jul 12, 2013 17:59
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Can't see this ending without what's happening to Gaku somehow being directly responsible for Yukari's death. Out of all possible outcomes I select the most unfortunate. 
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Jul 12, 2013 18:02
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:So if I'm following this right, then, Gaku can spend her life in one universe training to the peek of human ability, spend her life in another researching the depths of a field, and then choose to combine those two into a world where she's an Olympic-class athlete with the brain of all the PH.Ds ever. It follows with her being able to share knowledge, anyway. And yet in no universe it dawned to her that it would be a good idea to study English. Also that loving last page 
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Jul 12, 2013 18:17
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FillInTheBlank posted:Future spoilers: You will not like chapter 15 then. Are you pulling our chains here or is the actual manga that far already?
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Jul 12, 2013 18:38
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While I haven't spoiled myself so I can't say whether he's right or not, I believe chapter 16 recently got published yes.
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Jul 12, 2013 18:44
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A new chapter! For me?  Oh god this manga just doesn't stop. Gaku is one of the most terrifying characters I've ever seen. That last page is just... You know, this is my favourite manga. Ever.
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Jul 12, 2013 18:47
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Cao Ni Ma posted:You are confused Gaku is Gaku. There isnt such a thing as a "deviant" Gaku or a "Quantum Physics expert" Gaku, she just is Ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. Once that Gaku 'prime' comes to terms with the posibilities out there she turns into the Gaku of that possibility?There's no argument about the fact that she was a different Gaku at the end of the call, sort of like the caller become the called.
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Jul 12, 2013 18:52
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. Once that Gaku 'prime' comes to terms with the posibilities out there she turns into the Gaku of that possibility?There's no argument about the fact that she was a different Gaku at the end of the call, sort of like the caller become the called. Merges, I believe. Once they make contact they are an amalgam of both, including all the Gakus who interacted with one but not the other.
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Jul 12, 2013 18:55
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Rexides posted:And yet in no universe it dawned to her that it would be a good idea to study English. That was actually something I noticed too, and seemed weird. I would think at least a couple would have. Man, that last page has me looking forward to some very dark poo poo.
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Jul 12, 2013 19:00
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:That was actually something I noticed too, and seemed weird. I would think at least a couple would have. No doubt an infinite number of Gaku's have, but any given Gaku can only make contact with a finite number of her alternate/possible selves. I don't recall exactly how long it's been since she started hand-calling herself daily, but it's certainly feasible that she's never made contact with a Gaku that thought studying English would quickly bring her to her goal. Heck, considering how it worked out, perhaps it's just not at all necessary or helpful.
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Jul 12, 2013 19:42
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There might be limits to which versions of herself she can interfere with. Mostly it looks like a wild shot to reach Gakus who all started from similar points.
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Jul 12, 2013 20:01
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. Once that Gaku 'prime' comes to terms with the posibilities out there she turns into the Gaku of that possibility?There's no argument about the fact that she was a different Gaku at the end of the call, sort of like the caller become the called. That's the thing, there is no "Gaku prime" as far as each Gaku is concerned, she is the prime. There is complete symmetry between all the Gakus, which is made apparent when near the end of the call, the one who talks as if is the original caller is the one who, from the manga's perspective at that point was the one who received the call. Even who is calling whom is uncertain, and we just have to accept that as a fact, because if there was always a definite caller, she would never have manifested her powers.
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Jul 12, 2013 21:18
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Rexides posted:That's the thing, there is no "Gaku prime" as far as each Gaku is concerned, she is the prime. There is complete symmetry between all the Gakus, which is made apparent when near the end of the call, the one who talks as if is the original caller is the one who, from the manga's perspective at that point was the one who received the call. Even who is calling whom is uncertain, and we just have to accept that as a fact, because if there was always a definite caller, she would never have manifested her powers. With 'Gaku prime' I was talking about the one we as audience are following in the story, are you telling me that there aren't one and we're following the Gaku that fits better to the narrative?
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Jul 12, 2013 22:33
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:With 'Gaku prime' I was talking about the one we as audience are following in the story, are you telling me that there aren't one and we're following the Gaku that fits better to the narrative? Just like Gaku herself is all the Gakus she has ever talked to at the same time, we are following all the Gakus simultaneously and she will change as her knowledge is added to and reality alters around her.
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Jul 12, 2013 22:35
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:With 'Gaku prime' I was talking about the one we as audience are following in the story, are you telling me that there aren't one and we're following the Gaku that fits better to the narrative? as far as I recall there were at least five "Gaku" that we followed: 1) 25 years old freelance writer 2) the one that was blown up in airplane 3) the one that convinced Yukari's dad not to investigate 4) the one that feigned sympathy to get Alice as a tool 5) the one that fell in love with Alice.
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Jul 12, 2013 22:51
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:With 'Gaku prime' I was talking about the one we as audience are following in the story, are you telling me that there aren't one and we're following the Gaku that fits better to the narrative? Check the last page of first chapter and the first few of chapter 7 again. They deal with "how and when does a story start", where I'd say the answer is "the story is what the narrator tells". The narrator for this story is some Gaku that knows of everything she tells, so it would have to be one who at least can access the memories of all those alternative ones that didn't really come to be. The entire thing is being told in past tense too. Actually, drat that's a lot of foreshadowing in chapter 7, the "11 years later" part. Sounds like it might even be a world where Marii never died?
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Jul 12, 2013 22:56
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nielsm posted:Check the last page of first chapter and the first few of chapter 7 again. They deal with "how and when does a story start", where I'd say the answer is "the story is what the narrator tells". The narrator for this story is some Gaku that knows of everything she tells, so it would have to be one who at least can access the memories of all those alternative ones that didn't really come to be. The entire thing is being told in past tense too. Holy crap, I think that I need to read everything a few times more before everything makes sense to me  Just a random thought, what if the crazy psycopathic girl from the beginning is another Gaku (or someone that broke after experiencing something similar)
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Jul 12, 2013 23:02
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While this is also an interesting sci-fi-ish thing, I really read it as an experiment in narrative. "Here's a story I could have told, but it's actually not so interesting by itself, so have a different version instead." It essentially becomes a tale of tales being told.
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Jul 12, 2013 23:08
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I wonder if Gaku looks different to Yukari now. She said that she sees Gaku as an adaptable super robot, one that can fit many different kinds of parts. Yukari can't see her actually "changing parts" if it's something that happened in the past -- for example, if she changes worlds from "physically inactive" to "continually practiced naginata," Yukari exists in a world where she's always done that and won't notice the "change" -- but there's cases where she's pulling in knowledge and abilities from worlds where that past never actually existed, such as the quantum mechanics studying or anything she's worked out with Alice. Can Yukari see any of those changes? We know that she can see aptitudes from the early chapter, and those aren't physical either. "Good at instinctual weather forecasting" is something that has no outward signs to anyone that isn't Yukari. In any event, I think that robot look is what glowing-eyed Gaku is supposed to invoke, though I suppose it could be a more general "spooky" look with no additional meaning.
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Jul 12, 2013 23:31
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Einander posted:In any event, I think that robot look is what glowing-eyed Gaku is supposed to invoke, though I suppose it could be a more general "spooky" look with no additional meaning. I could see the story potentially going in the direction of Gaku having essentially lived so many lifetimes that she's actually sort of forgotten Yukari as a person. Instead she maybe sees her more as a "thing" that she's supposed to protect, leading to her becoming unintentionally more controlling of Yukari, inadvertently making Yukari try to get away. We already know that Gaku has the capacity to do some pretty bad things, and since she has her desired timeline, may not diverge them again (if that would even be how it could work) to give herself a way to fix things. It'll be really interesting to see if your spoilered prediction comes out too, since that sounds really plausible. I'm not going to be surprised if Gaku turns into Tetsuo or something. God drat this series is great. I want there to be a happy ending, but I just don't know.
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Jul 12, 2013 23:43
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pandaK posted:Are you pulling our chains here or is the actual manga that far already? Chapter 16 was released in Dengeki Daioh July issue.
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Jul 13, 2013 00:17
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FillInTheBlank posted:Chapter 16 was released in Dengeki Daioh July issue. I need the next four scanlated chapters in my veins and I need them yesterday.
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Jul 13, 2013 00:30
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ActionZero posted:I need the next four scanlated chapters in my veins and I need them yesterday. As soon as I heard up to chapter 16 was out, my first thought was "I wonder if I could learn Japanese in the next two hours" and then when I realized that was probably crazy I wondered if I knew anybody who would know Japanese that I could physically threaten to translate for me.
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Jul 13, 2013 02:30
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:As soon as I heard up to chapter 16 was out, my first thought was "I wonder if I could learn Japanese in the next two hours" and then when I realized that was probably crazy I wondered if I knew anybody who would know Japanese that I could physically threaten to translate for me. Having looked at the newer raws with medium level Japanese skill you'd be better off trolling an asian dating website with a rich douchebag profile and trying to get a native speaker to do it for you while you pretend you are looking for marriage. What the gently caress, are they taking about, that requires that much effort to read. Also thanks OP this is pretty good.
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Jul 13, 2013 03:29
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windex posted:Having looked at the newer raws with medium level Japanese skill you'd be better off trolling an asian dating website with a rich douchebag profile and trying to get a native speaker to do it for you while you pretend you are looking for marriage. ...I'm just lazy enough to not do that, but drat if I'm not tempted.
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Jul 13, 2013 04:24
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Hey Gaku, there's a certain Mad Scientist you might want to talk to before you go messing with timelines/quantum possibilities to save one person. And to go back to different character: Arrakis Awakening by the Princess Irulan posted:Think of sight. You have eyes, yet cannot see without light. If you are on the floor of a valley, you cannot see beyond your valley. Just so, Muad'Dib could not always choose to look across the mysterious terrain. He tells us that a single obscure decision of prophecy, perhaps the choice of one word over another, could change the entire aspect of the future. He tells us "The vision of time is broad, but when you pass through it, time becomes a narrow door." And always, he fought the temptation to choose a clear, safe course, warning "That path leads ever down into stagnation." Now, about the actual chapter: especially considering the last page, I really doubt she's going to get through the whole ordeal without some sort of repercussions, interpersonal or internal or what remains to be seen yet though.
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Jul 13, 2013 04:50
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Theory only but after time to digest.. If they weren't friends Gaku wouldn't have influenced her to leave and being rejected by two people she has saved might cause her to keep her distance from others, protecting the secret. Sorry. 
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Jul 13, 2013 05:06
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windex posted:Theory only but after time to digest.. If they weren't friends Gaku wouldn't have influenced her to leave and being rejected by two people she has saved might cause her to keep her distance from others, protecting the secret. I don't think that's too likely - she now explicitly has the potential to pick out an ideal world given any combination of possible events in her life. For the purposes of your theory, why would she alienate her best friend when she can establish a world where she has both maintained her friendship and protected her? Even if this current timeline is eventually rejected like the "join JAUNT" paths, she has so many variables to work with that I can't really see that being the ideal solution.
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Jul 13, 2013 06:27
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Also, She was helping the police before she met Gaku, right? That means JAUNT would almost certainly find out anyway.
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Jul 13, 2013 12:30
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I don't know if it's the pacing or just how it's being translated, but the wordiness of the theory explanations makes them a tad hard to process occasionally. Fortunately it's still straightforward enough to follow, even if skimmed a bit. I did pick up that The phone hand acts like a light particle even before Gaku decides to mimic light - it's alternate function will never work when observed, even if the side effects of it are seen by outsiders, which is neat. But then what happens when she explains the function to others? She already has at this point, but not much was made of it. I can't help but feel telling the 'destination' about how the power works is a bad idea.
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Jul 14, 2013 01:38
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I suspect that Gaku is going to try to force Yukari into a relationship with her, possibly writing one or more rivals out of existence in the process. And she may not be able to do it- Yukari may simply not feel that way about Gaku, despite their close friendship. And ironically, the one thing Gaku can't do is unlearn something like "I am bisexual and comfortable with that fact."
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Jul 15, 2013 09:18
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I'm really glad this got posted in the Surreal Daily Life thread, even if it wasn't remotely relevant beyond the first two chapters. Reading it all in sequence was a hell of a trip, let me tell you. I'm still not even sure I like it; what's happened so far is mostly good stuff, but it seems like the kind of work that can't be fully judged without seeing the end. But it's amazing, and I need more. The Copenhagen interpretation and many-worlds have different implications for potential complications in the (story) future, don't they? If it's many-worlds, there could be a separate, rival Gaku gestalt, one that's given up, or working at a different and incompatible goal. I don't think that's possible with Copenhagen. Also, Gaku is kind of terrifying. And she's gone completely Homura. FillInTheBlank posted:Future spoilers: You will not like chapter 15 then. I really hope you're talking about the ending page. You're probably not.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:44
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I have just finished the translated chapters and while I think that the parallel worlds explanation is exciting and all, what if Gaku is just crazy and just imagining all of this?
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Jul 17, 2013 09:11
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sunburnedcrow posted:I have just finished the translated chapters and while I think that the parallel worlds explanation is exciting and all, what if Gaku is just crazy? That'd be pretty dumb - if you assume that every single statement and image is lying, including her conversations with other people who have experienced the same things she has, then the whole thing is pointless and literally nothing has happened at all.
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Jul 17, 2013 09:14
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Wolpertinger posted:That'd be pretty dumb - if you assume that every single statement and image is lying, including her conversations with other people who have experienced the same things she has, then the whole thing is pointless and literally nothing has happened at all. Would be hilarious though, that the whole manga is a lesson for Occam's razor
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Jul 17, 2013 09:46
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Except that what you're speaking of is more of a cheap narrative trick than a clever application of a concept. It'd require absolutely exceptional execution to pull it off without people feeling cheated. There's a reason why "It was all a dream" is pretty widely hated as a plot twist. I prefer to operate on a certain level of trust that what's being presented by the narrative is true except where there're indications of an unreliable narrator. Most readers operate on that kind of trust, and the kind of scenario you're speaking of breaks that trust. Now, presenting something that's fairly absurd or unjustified to the point where it triggers readers' bullshit detectors, and then having that turn out to be just a fantasy or a dream is a common narrative trick, but those scenarios aren't generally given the depths of explanation and justification the weird poo poo in this manga is. They simply happen without explanation, and there're good reasons for that. Not to mention that Occam's Razor is an argument for seeking efficient hypotheses, not simplistic oversimplification. There's an important and often misunderstood distinction between the two. Plus it's important for hypotheses to be testable, and it's extremely difficult to test "everything I'm experiencing is an illusion", to say the least. Kaja Rainbow fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jul 17, 2013 |
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Jul 17, 2013 10:26
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I do enjoy what is currently going on with the series, however I've been burned by a few times where the stories end abruptly with a unsatisfactory ending. Perhaps, I am just being too cynical. Even so, there are points in the story when the hallucination may start and the series can just picked up from there, Yurika may still be someone who sees people as robots, repaired Manabu's arm etc.
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Jul 17, 2013 15:58
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A lot of those abrupt endings're because the series were cancelled and the creator had to wrap things up suddenly.
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Jul 17, 2013 16:14
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