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I've never watched or read Index and I agree this arc would be a million times better if Touma didn't exist and it was Kuroko and company helping her out.
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Jul 14, 2013 20:05
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I think the worst part of this argument is that it's gonna be taking up all discussion here for at least two more episodes. 
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Jul 14, 2013 20:10
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Reivax posted:A problem in nerd media is this weird adherence to 'canon.' Oh come on. This is exactly like people who write actual fanfiction complaining that the creators aren't acknowledging their personal preferences. I wanted Piccolo and Vegeta to be the main characters of DBZ too, once. quote:Nate RFB is right in saying derivative works shouldn't be slavishly adherent to canon, and should instead be made to work on their own merits. It's a small part of something much greater written by the same author of Index, helping flesh out multiple characters, with the specific intent of showing an alternate perspective to events that as far as the franchise is concerned, have already happened. At most it really is just fanservice. Well done fanservice that has, in my opinion, done a great job of illustrating how Misaka got to that moment on the bridge on Touma, and why their relationship is the way it is throughout the entire franchise. She really likes the guy an awful lot, and is willing to go through a lot to help him out. Where as in the original arc, we don't see why she's driven to accept his assistance, this show has put it up with almost excruciating detail. There's no actual rule that says it's a bad thing that a strong (female) character to accept help from a weaker (male) character, which is what I think you're so close to saying you may as well spit it out. Characters and stories can operate independently expectation and still be good and/or entertaining, be it expectations of an entire fanbase, or a small portion of it. quote:Railgun up until this point was series that could be watched completely independently of Index, but this latest episode drags it kicking and screaming back to canon, which weakens the story considerably. Touma is the main character in Index, Mikasa is the main character in Railgun. My argument isn't so much that Index shouldn't exist, it's that Railgun can be its own work and stand independently of Index. Railgun has never been wholly independent of Index, for better or worse, and the show hasn't been "dragged back to canon", it's BEEN adapting canon for the majority of the season. You might be able to make that argument for anime-only content, but most of the first season and this second season have been focused on Misaka's perspective of events that have affected Index or have been affected by Index. Yes, you can enjoy Railgun by itself, but that doesn't make it entirely independent. I think that you'd be missing out on a lot of world building by cutting out Index entirely. quote:This isn't a documentary, a retelling of real events, it's fiction. It can be written any way he pleases. A certain level of contrivance is to be expected. I can easily suspend disbelief that the kitten chose to pull at the zipper and reveal the all-important documents at that particular moment, but when a peripheral character is suddenly the protagonist, stealing the spotlight. I think a lot of people forget that Touma and Mikasa aren't exactly buddies; he bumps into her a few times, is overly familiar, and is generally an arse. She has every right to be suspicious of this white knight Nice Guy. Lets turn this around: As far as Touma knows, Misaka is a level 5 who apparently gets her kicks bending the rules in her favor. She's a vandal, and has been insisting on starting fights with him that he doesn't even want. I think you're forgetting that she has tried to beat the poo poo out of him, going to far as to make a sword out of sand and try to cut him with it to "prove" something to herself. And now he's discovered that she's involved in some sort of military clone program that is getting people killed horrifically by another Level 5. Touma has every right to be angry and suspicious of Misaka. I think you're forgetting all of that because it's okay for someone to do all of those things so long as it's a girl doing them to a guy. You've already expressed your "concern" for the violence towards fictional women throughout Index, so I think that would be fair assumption to make. The only reason the current narrative is "toxic" to Railgun as far as you and people like you are concerned is that is isn't falling in line with what you WANT the series to be, which is something the series has never actually been.
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Jul 14, 2013 23:46
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Here's what I took from what you've said: Railgun is fanservice whose entire existence was designed to pander to Index fans. In that case, all I can do, as someone who hasn't watched Index and doesn't plan to, write the entire show off as pandering fanservice and completely ignore it. There is absolutely no way around it for me. The entire argument so far has hinged on the difference in the perspectives of Index fans vs the perspective of people who haven't seen/read Index, but the ball is in the author's court. If she/he panders to fans, most of the latter will give up on Railgun. If she/he writes Railgun as an alternate continuity where Mikoto continues to be the lead character, then most of the former will get pouty and complain. Or at least that's the sense I'm getting from reading this thread. I personally don't see anything wrong with Railgun being an alternate continuity. Hell, that idea worked brilliantly with the various versions of GitS as it allowed them to explore different ideas within the same world without have to endlessly retcon.
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Jul 16, 2013 00:08
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ViggyNash posted:Here's what I took from what you've said: Railgun is fanservice whose entire existence was designed to pander to Index fans. In that case, all I can do, as someone who hasn't watched Index and doesn't plan to, write the entire show off as pandering fanservice and completely ignore it. There is absolutely no way around it for me. I think you've got it backwards. Railgun-only viewers might be a bit disappointed by this arc, but the ones who loathe it are the Index viewers who carry a pre-existing intense hatred of Touma himself (rather than just his role as a DEM in this particular story). It certainly is reasonable to abandon the series for not being what you thought it was though. Honestly, even the writer seems kind of sick of Touma's power at this point, because one of the protagonists he introduces later is a Level 0 who really does have no powers whatsoever and has to get by on his wits alone. And who slowly takes up more and more page time. It's easy to think of this person as "the new, improved Touma".
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Jul 16, 2013 00:23
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In that case, why retcon? This arc makes even less sense now. If she really hates Touma that much, why not rewrite him in this critical arc?
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Jul 16, 2013 00:41
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ViggyNash posted:In that case, why retcon? This arc makes even less sense now. If she really hates Touma that much, why not rewrite him in this critical arc?
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Jul 16, 2013 00:49
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I kinda feel that the subset of people who think Railgun should have abandoned or significantly rewritten the original canon of a shared universe this show is supposed to be a part of are unreasonable. It's okay to be disappointed but actually advocating something like a retcon just seems like fan outrage to me. It would've been awesome if we had a stand alone show with a girl protagonist with esper powers who was bad rear end who relied on her own select group of interesting and quirky friends without needing to have the spotlight occasionally overshadowed by a dofus. However, that's not what Railgun is 100% of the time, we have Railgun as part of the Indexverse and its under certain reasonable constraints that the writer put us in so c'est la vie (It's okay to be annoyed at bad writing when it happens but not at the animators having to adapt it without significant alterations). It seems to be if we had a Not!Railgun that had similar situation of 'bad writing' it would be a lot more reasonable complaint, but you in my humble opinion have to applaud them for making good with what they got; we got a lot of very good scenes and character beats and Touma is significantly more tolerable as Random Guy We Run Into. Personally if Touma had originally came across as putting alot more effort to find things out instead of kinda lucking into it that would be better writing, I agree with that especially in the Railgun context. But Touma in general being involved being bad? I don't agree.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:It would've been awesome if we had a stand alone show with a girl protagonist with esper powers who was bad rear end who relied on her own select group of interesting and quirky friends without needing to have the spotlight occasionally overshadowed by a dofus. This is exactly what I'd hoped for story wise, but it seem that's not where we're going and it's really disappointing. As far as the directing of this show I'd have to say that it is exceptionally good. Mikoto being slowly and steadily broken down by the ever growing wall of hell she has to deal with was brilliantly portrayed. Even her whole talk with Touma was amazing in that respect. And then Touma steals the show. Goddamit does it annoy me. I would have been fine with him just supporting her. It's true that he's the only one that can completely shut down Accelerator, but that doesn't mean he should be able to just walk up to him and win. What (I think) should have happened is that Touma helps Mikoto restore her confidence, and then they come up with a cool plan to work together to take Accelerator down and thus ruin the tests. Instead we get a white knight idealist that will probably be anime-magicked into a win (I don't know what actually happens).
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Jul 16, 2013 02:38
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ViggyNash posted:Here's what I took from what you've said: Railgun is fanservice whose entire existence was designed to pander to Index fans. That's exactly right. A Certain Scientific Railgun is, in fact, fanservice designed to pander to Index fans. Mikoto, the character who first appeared within the A Certain Magical Index series, got really popular because she's a tsundere school girl who wears SHORTS and not PANTIES and she BLUSHES ALL THE TIME around the also very popular main hero. However, she's also well liked because she's a REALLY POWERFUL school girl who also happens to be at the center of the best arc in the entire franchise. The Railgun subseries has always, from the very beginning, been tied to Index, and the anime has always been an adapation of something that has already been written. There's a lot of people who happen to enjoy both. It has the benefit of being better paced, for sure, because it's not trying to adapt like five or more novels in a season. The action is also SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER DIRECTED. Like whoa it's not even close. There's very little in the Index shows that come close to most of what we've seen thus far in the Railgun series, which is a shame because on paper Index has scenarios that should be firmly in the Baddest Anime poo poo Ever club. quote:In that case, all I can do, as someone who hasn't watched Index and doesn't plan to, write the entire show off as pandering fanservice and completely ignore it. There is absolutely no way around it for me. This thread is not representative of the majority of fans who pay attention to this universe, unfortunately for it. The novels have sold like gangbusters relative to other japanese teen fiction stories because people really love the whole universe. I'm sure most people among them have characters they prefer, like or dislike, but the series has continued through and beyond it's original intended scope and even has spawned a sequel series that continues the story, and continues to add new characters and have existing ones grow and change. It even spawned the Railgun series. It's really not the author's fault that you have no interest in anything else BUT the Railgun series. The fact that you don't actually know what's about to happen (or why it even happens, because your knowledge is limited to a very small portion of the overall shared universe) is actually kinda indicative of why at least knowing a little more about the overall story helps, and also points to the fact that the show really is aimed at fans of the whole franchise. Besides, nix Index, and you also nix this, which is goddamn unacceptable to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAMFQmvvAVI
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Jul 16, 2013 06:16
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I'm really looking forward to the OST getting released. The track that plays at the end of episode 5 and the one in episode 6 where the rest of the Sisters reveal themselves to Mikoto are really good.
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Jul 16, 2013 21:00
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Sindai posted:I've never watched or read Index and I agree this arc would be a million times better if Touma didn't exist and it was Kuroko and company helping her out.
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Jul 17, 2013 00:16
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Falken posted:The loving opening teases at the idea of Kuroko helping out Mikoto during her earlier battles in the arc. To be fair, it also has Touma show up out of nowhere to deus-ex-machina an attack (even he looks confused as to why he's there). They were clearly more interested in having all the characters featured and giving them a chance to show off in an action scene than being any kind of accurate representation of any particular part of the show.
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Jul 17, 2013 00:23
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Well, yeah. The scene where Mikoto (meltdowner spoilers) smacks Mugino upside the head with a doll would have been much funnier if it were Saten sneaking up behind her and hitting her with that trusty baseball bat of hers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81vLH7ITNbE GEKOTA
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Jul 17, 2013 00:27
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The Evil Thing posted:I know it's silly to judge a spinoff as a standalone work, but I can't help but wonder what the audience is supposed to take away from this arc. What is the story trying to say? I just can't think of anything good. This is what happens when you create a second season of a show without any material to do so and just end up re-telling a story from the main series. I don't know why this season exists at all (other than because Railgun brings in the money.) Wheezle fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jul 17, 2013 |
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Jul 17, 2013 08:24
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…What? It's almost (barring anime-original expansion/filler) 1:1 based on the Railgun manga, not primarily the Index LNs. It's also a hell of a lot of a better/tighter presentation than the "main series", regardless of when it ends up running into the brick wall limitations of the source material that this entire page has been a complaint about.
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Jul 17, 2013 10:50
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Falken posted:The loving opening teases at the idea of Kuroko helping out Mikoto during her earlier battles in the arc. Anime openings have been showing crap happening that looks really awesome but doesn't actually happen in the show proper since forever. If shows actually followed their OPs as religiously as some fans want them too, Watamoto, for example, would be a VERY different show (it would be the best).
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Jul 17, 2013 22:26
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fivegears4reverse posted:Anime openings have been showing crap happening that looks really awesome but doesn't actually happen in the show proper since forever. Anime openings sometimes showcase the most amazing things 
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Jul 17, 2013 23:06
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Whoops,   this became a massively huge effortpost review somehow - because it's 6 in the goddamn morning oh god why am I up and watching stupid anime instead of sleeping - and I think I have a quota to fulfill for those, but everyone in this thread already knows what's going on anyway, so whatever.Well, this episode was 1:1 to the manga, which makes it much better than the Index version of it (episode 13). It actually practises show-don't-tell In short, direction, direction, direction. This episode is directed and dynamic. The Index equivalent was xerox paper cutouts. Knowing what was coming, I rewatched the Index version of the last couple episodes, as well as re-reading the manga version too, because clearly I have nothing better to do with my life than attempt literary critique of Raildex.  I can't help but feel like the saving grace of having the remake of this arc spend so much time on it is that for better or for worse, it is faithful to the manga, including all the  , which forms the backbone of Misaka as a character. The bridge scene last episode in particular was much improved. And man, has she ever developed between incarnations (and so has her voice actor.) I guess the angst level is just right for me.The Sisters' characterization has also changed a bit, they're allowed to be quite a lot more human this time around, though it ends up being more snark and tone of voice, and actually less acting out emotions. On the other hand, #10032 doesn't have a  reaction when spotting Accelerator outside the grocery store his time. (I'm still not sure what the fakeout in that scene accomplishes, other than underlining the supposed interchangeability of the Sisters, while going to pains to give the opposite message in other scenes. And they got rid of it in this anime version, anyway.) If you've read this far I owe you a beer. They massively toned down the dead-gray-eyes look, I suppose to parallel this (the cynic in me says it was to save on key animation, though.) Instead they use it mostly when they're being humorous. There's a message there, I suppose.And we still need A Certain Sarcastic Hivemind to happen, dammit. The production values are a lot better even though Index was a high-budget show, and I think it merges 3D graphics with hand-drawn 2D in a really non-offensive and effective way. Character design has evolved all around. I'm not going to argue it much if someone plays the grimderp counter to that, because its depth is only relative to something even more shallow, but I think the contrast between cheerfulness and the darkness beneath the surface is one of the strengths of Railgun, and the lack of meaningful giving-a-gently caress-about-the-characters for Touma's story is one of many reasons Index isn't as compelling. That, and things going boom, and Accelerator's actor going all out. At least watching Accelerator get some humility punched into him is surprisingly entertaining however many times it happens. TCHTSATCHATSTCHSTHHH! As usual he keeps getting bullshit powers as the plot requires; this time he was copying Misaka's railway-bending attack, and was he even touching them all when tying them into knots for no evident reason? I guess given how the rest of it plays out you could argue he was touching them through touching the air.  Apparently he literally stops the planet briefly at some point in the future story, unless the internet lied to me. That has to be a new height in shonen anime bullshit powers. You know what, though, Kazuma Kamachi? My big problem with you is you lack imagination. You know what plasma is? Ionized gas, meaning it is charged, meaning full of free electrons just like a metal. Who in this story has spooky-action-at-a-distance absolute mastery over electrons? Yeah. Besides, its energy density is like (⁴⁄₃ π r³)⁻¹, so as it expands it loses energy fast. This is also why a fusion reactor exploding is a total non-issue. That's as far as thermal effects go; the heat from compression is going to return to the same ambient temperature it came from, minus some lost to radiation. (However, if he packed like half the atmosphere in so many kilometers into a ball over a couple minutes and released it all in a few seconds, he'd create a mess. But regardless of whether if he can actually hold it against that pressure, some wind turbines aren't going to do poo poo one way or the other.) I'm already way above the legal word quota for posting about anime and should kill myself already, but, to wank even more, Misaka should be able to pull off a freakin' free-electron laser if she knew to try. It's a fun thought to counter Accelerator with a linear electron accelerator  As far as I know he still needs his eyes to see where he's aiming, and even if he can bounce off the photons, he presumably can't be infinitely choosy about it, so he'd at least be blind and inconvenienced, giving you time to get the hell out of there.I just binged way too much tvtropes about it all and there's some interesting things going on in the giant sprawling morass that is the overarching Raildex plot like the fairly obvious promotion of anybody, anything and everything that has military potential by various unfair methods, and I guess I owe you two beers; eg. the megabux grants to level up people like Misaka and (ultraspoiler for Raildex overarching plot) the Actual Real Plan Honestly Now of Crowley's for the Radio Noise/Level 6 Shift to intentionally fail in its purported goal, leading to the MISAKA diaspora to help basically re-spin Human Instrumentality, I guess?, and so it's regretful that it's so spread out among the sprawling bullshit. For those who have the time to waste, a guy over at Spacebattles has started a fanfiction  rewrite of Index that is really fun, looks promising, and does actually interesting things with characters who ought to be so much more capable than they've been portrayed, especially the title character
Wolf on Air fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jul 20, 2013 |
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Jul 20, 2013 06:43
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Wolf on Air posted:As far as I know he still needs his eyes to see where he's aiming, and even if he can bounce off the photons, he presumably can't be infinitely choosy about it, so he'd at least be blind and inconvenienced, giving you time to get the hell out of there. Nope. He leaves his barrier on reflect by default, so he doesn't even need to see what hits him to reflect it, which is why he's so surprised that he's hit in the first place. He explains as much personally during one of the Index arcs. He does reflect bullets on a regular basis, and no matter how 'fast' his mind might be, unless everything else about him is superhuman, he's not seeing bullets. Presumably he can even program the barrier to allow things he needs to pass through, like the correct air content so he doesn't asphyxiate. He really is a bullshit character at this point in the story, which is why certain things that happened during this episode are IMMENSELY SATISFYING.
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Jul 20, 2013 07:52
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I was more saying that you could keep him too busy to kill you, not actually hurt him. Oh well. I did one more short A/B comparison and really must reemphasise how much better this take is in every way it can be better, for the people complaining that it's "just a remake." I'm a bit sad we apparently won't be getting the Daihasesai arc just yet, because it clearly is a direct followup to the Sisters arc we're seeing the "end" of here, but oh well, from what I gleaned, Liberal Arts City should be amusing, too. The pendulum swing's about due for comedy, anyway.
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Jul 20, 2013 07:59
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Words are inadequate to express how satisfying it was to see Accelerator get punched in the face. Also, Accelerator's VA deserves to win all the voice acting awards. JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jul 20, 2013 |
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Jul 20, 2013 08:45
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From my perspective (having never watched Index), I didn't see a lot of the major problems people were complaining about this arc/fight in spoiler tags. Sure Touma was the one who charged in like an idiot and started saving the day by punching the bad guy in the face, but Mikoto was far from helpless during the whole thing, showing up ready to die to save Touma's life, then managing to reach out and convince the Misaka Network to help her save his life. I never really felt like Mikoto was a "damsel in distress" or not the protagonist as far as this episode is concerned, even if she didn't really get screen time for the first ten minutes or so. And yeah, Accelerator's VA is amazing.
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Jul 20, 2013 17:33
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Seriously. That sound he was making when he started up the vortex.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:45
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Sindai posted:Seriously. That sound he was making when he started up the vortex. Both versions are faithful to the sound (that only the viewers of the animes can hear) that is made by Imagine Breaker as it disobeys all esper and magical laws.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:57
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Was interesting how both of them seem to fight like a bunch of drunkards, stumbling around while touma still kicked his rear end. Now we just need to see minor spoiler: Hamzura kick Toumas rear end and the circle would be complete
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Jul 20, 2013 21:05
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Chillyrabbit posted:minor spoiler: Hamzura kick Toumas rear end and the circle would be complete That's pretty easy isn't it? Doesn't he use guns when he can?
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Jul 20, 2013 21:16
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Sindai posted:Seriously. That sound he was making when he started up the vortex. Truly top-tier acting
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Jul 20, 2013 21:31
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Reminds me of Fred Tatasciore when he was doing all those amazing voices for Dawn of War 2.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:45
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Hahaha oh my god, that Accelerator scene was perfect! 
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Jul 21, 2013 04:58
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Sindai posted:Seriously. That sound he was making when he started up the vortex.  on the city or something, not a vortex of plasma. Seriously, that was some Lovecraftian chanting there. I almost want to bet it was an ad-libbed segment. The director probably said "Make some gibberish noise that sounds extremely creepy and disturbing as gently caress", and the VA just went with it.
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Jul 21, 2013 05:18
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SpaceViking posted:From my perspective (having never watched Index), I didn't see a lot of the major problems people were complaining about this arc/fight in spoiler tags. Because instead of it being about Misaka going through hell, it's all about his dream.
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Jul 21, 2013 05:37
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AradoBalanga posted:I swear, it sounded like he was about to drop Sounds likely, in the LN themselves there's a bunch of similar gibberish whenever an esper or esper effect tries to do something particularly difficult/crazy.
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Jul 21, 2013 13:37
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For the railway bending, he kicked it with his foot, which bent it into knots, touched it again to explode it along the knots and throw them at Touma at the same time.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:49
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The range of his vector control was always a little vague. I figure the limited range is a combination of a psychological block and the complexity of the forces involved. As long as he can obtain a reasonably accurate transformation of the forces involved into a single vector in contact with him, he could manipulate that whole. So things are easiest with rigid solids(you can cheat a little to treat the entire object as one immutable whole, or split it off at any part cleanly) and radiant energy(linear energies which propagate in a predictable manner), while having more problems with fluids outside an enclosed system and gases. In the case of the plasma storm, I personally thought it was more a danger that he might eventually initiate fusion or attain a singularity, since he can simply override any repulsive or radiative forces, but it fundamentally requires handling the entire local atmosphere as a single vector(inwards, towards the plasma ball). The windmills threw enough of a wrench into the math to make him lose control of the plasma, whereas a focused manipulation like electrically splitting up the plasma makes it a direct contest of power over power, which as the Strongest he is expected to win. Index spoilers: It's an ongoing problem with him, since his power depend on sufficiently accurate computation of the vectors involved. Like anyone, he takes mental shortcuts for the math for it to work quickly, shortcuts which can be exploited. Accelerator's biggest weakness is that under it all he's a human.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:24
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This episode was not nearly as terrible as the discussion before led me to believe it would be. Touma was definitely set up, to an extent, as a white knight character and he only survived long enough to punch Accelerator in the face by the will of anime magic. Everything after that was actually rather believable and well done. I hope he doesn't suddenly steal the glory Misaka deserves for her use of the Misaka network.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:44
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The big problem with the episode is how it took agency away from Misaka and made it about Touma and ~his~ dream.
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Jul 23, 2013 11:51
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That and his plan is still terrible and stupid. Unless Touma is willing to physically scramble Accelerator's brain, it should by rights be zero reason to stop the experiments. The City has sunk so many resources into him that their response to Touma doing his thing should be "oh, I wonder what's his shtick? While we're finding out, let's continue slaughtering the clones".
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Jul 23, 2013 12:30
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Yasser Arafatwa posted:The big problem with the episode is how it took agency away from Misaka and made it about Touma and ~his~ dream. He's still a terrible character being shoehorned into a situation that he should have nothing to do with (from the perspective of a Railgun only watcher). From what people were saying before I was expecting him to pretty much take down Accelerator singlehandedly through anime magic, but no he only provoked him into creating a shitstorm. All he accomplishes in the end is buying enough time for Misaka to show up and take him down.
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Jul 23, 2013 12:51
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Phobophilia posted:That and his plan is still terrible and stupid. Unless Touma is willing to physically scramble Accelerator's brain, it should by rights be zero reason to stop the experiments. The City has sunk so many resources into him that their response to Touma doing his thing should be "oh, I wonder what's his shtick? While we're finding out, let's continue slaughtering the clones". I personally think that other than Crowley's meddling, what really made them call it off was Accelerator going power mad and nearly destroying the city. That plasma vortex is pretty distinctive.
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Jul 23, 2013 13:00
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