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Ferrinus posted:You can drift with them! And that one had a baby! And only one of them can go back in through the portal the way they came! The movie's climax writes itself. The alternate ending involved the baby kaiju imprinting on chau and the two of them go through the portal and unleash some reverse kaiju kaiju invasion on the kaiju world. You see humans+kaiju are stronger together than they ever can be individually. That's anime as gently caress and should have been the ending.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:32
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xxEightxx posted:The alternate ending involved the baby kaiju imprinting on chau and the two of them go through the portal and unleash some reverse kaiju kaiju invasion on the kaiju world. You see humans+kaiju are stronger together than they ever can be individually. That's anime as gently caress and should have been the ending. As with most things, "not anime enough" is Pacific Rim's defining flaw.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:36
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Undead Unicorn posted:The problem is this patently untrue. Unlike most blockbuster movie threads (like World War Z and Man of Steel) we have posters openly challenging you outside of "Uh, gently caress you, just watch the movie" or arguing semantics. The problem has nothing to do with buying dolls (Also seen in the Avengers threads or Transformers threads) but with presenting a liberal transhumanist message as a opposed to a liberal humanist centered socialist one. Why is that "a problem"? Do you only enjoy movies that cater to your pet political cause?
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Jul 18, 2013 17:36
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Indeed, maybe a better message would have been after they find there is some sympathy to the Kaiju being beasts bred for violence and forces of nature, that you can interact with them and they can give birth and whatnot, that if some were turned or teamed up with or if Hannibal raised the baby Kaiju it could have had a statement of overcoming prejudice and bonding with nature and mastering it in some capacity. Something something be one with nature and master it and co-exist.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:36
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Whom, then, can the robots punch guilt-free?
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Jul 18, 2013 17:38
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I just took the "We made the environment livable to them with pollution" as a really flimsy throwaway line which had zero impact on the plot for me.xxEightxx posted:The alternate ending involved the baby kaiju imprinting on chau and the two of them go through the portal and unleash some reverse kaiju kaiju invasion on the kaiju world. You see humans+kaiju are stronger together than they ever can be individually. That's anime as gently caress and should have been the ending. That's moving a bit too close to saturday morning cartoon for me. Not that Pacific Rim isn't just a big budget one already but still http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syZ2zjeXJZ0&t=0m28s
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Jul 18, 2013 17:38
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Ferrinus posted:SMG's right that the movie made a huge blunder in never emphasizing with the Kaiju. Since the Kaiju are clone slaves who can be psychically communicated with in the same way that humans can be, the way was wide open for the characters to ultimately empathize with the kaiju and invite them into the fold somehow, for the social abject to be embraced rather than smugly vaporized. Buuuut... Isn't this why people liked the movie? That the bad guys were bad and the end? In fact I thought all of that setup was there to reference Del Toro's older work with misunderstood monsters and... nope turns out they are just like our robots. Killing machines. We don't really sympathize with those guys either, that'd be like sympathizing with a tank, but we can acknowledge their beauty and power and whatever makes kids go "cool...". I can see how you thought that, but to me the Kaiju were only alive in the sense that they were made out of fleshy stuff, like Zergs. Practically they were just weapons or forces of nature.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:38
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Ferrinus posted:As with most things, "not anime enough" is Pacific Rim's defining flaw. We got a big budget movie in which characters shout the names of their special moves before their giant robots do them, there's only so much anime cinemas can take.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:39
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Bongo Bill posted:Whom, then, can the robots punch guilt-free? HA! The walls. Possibly the political/class system. Be used for constructive purposes. Build, not destroy. For the world is grey and complex and complicated and it speaks of humanity to overcome guilt free hatred or whatever.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:42
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Gatts posted:HA! The walls. Possibly the political/class system. Be used for constructive purposes. Build, not destroy. For the world is grey and complex and complicated and it speaks of humanity to overcome guilt free hatred or whatever. The jaegers attacking the walls would basically be the jaegers attacking the people who built the walls - it would then be humans against other humans, betraying the theme of unity which drives every scene and every plot device.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:43
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Ferrinus posted:You can drift with them! And that one had a baby! And only one of them can go back in through the portal the way they came! The movie's climax writes itself. I'm just going to type and forego spoiler tags, so for anyone reading:  spoilersThe Kaiju aren't natural to our world. They're clearly being bred/created to destroy us. They are the alien's Jargers. "Our contempt for nature" didn't bring them through the portal. You and SMG are just wrong that they're here because of global warming. Charlie says "We basically terraformed the planet for them." We made it easier for them. The aliens tried to invade millions of years ago when dinosaurs where hanging out. The planet wasn't conducive to them and their invasion failed. Did they have Kaiju then? Who knows. Who cares? All Charlie (IE we) knows is that they failed because of the environment (the main differences between then and now being no holes in the ozone and a lot more oxygen in the air). Since millions of years have passed since their last attempt, and a hell of a lot can change within a planet's atmosphere over that period of time, they're probably just trying again. "Hey, that one planet we tried to strip for resources was pretty abundant. Too bad the atmosphere was so oxygen rich. A bit of time's passed, let's check it out and see what's changed." * * * "Holy poo poo, thanks monkey men! We loves us some CO2. Let's do this."
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Jul 18, 2013 17:45
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Bongo Bill posted:The jaegers attacking the walls would basically be the jaegers attacking the people who built the walls - it would then be humans against other humans, betraying the theme of unity which drives every scene and every plot device. Hmmm...this is more complicated than I thought...
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Jul 18, 2013 17:45
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Pope Mobile posted:The aliens tried to invade millions of years ago when dinosaurs where hanging out. The planet wasn't conducive to them and their invasion failed. Did they have Kaiju then? Who knows. Who cares? Dinosaurs are escaped slave Kaiju and the asteroid was sent by the aliens to wipe them out.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:46
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Bongo Bill posted:Whom, then, can the robots punch guilt-free? You. Haha, seriously, though, as biological weapons/feral animals the kaiju would still, like, justifiably be fought and killed by the robots? But the invaders, not their hounds, are the real threat, and ideally they'd be confronted and grappled with somehow, not just bombed once. Also, imagine jaeger vs. jaeger fights as some humans are either telepathically dominated or just plain bribed by the aliens! Pope Mobile posted:"Holy poo poo, thanks monkey men! We loves us some CO2. Let's do this." So what you're saying is, our contempt for nature brought them through the portal.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:49
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At a certain point, though, you're no longer criticizing the film that was made and instead saying they should have made a completely different movie. I think it bears repeating, a movie is not good or bad because of what it is about but how it is about it.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:52
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Maxwell Lord posted:At a certain point, though, you're no longer criticizing the film that was made and instead saying they should have made a completely different movie. Like I said, here's the one change I will absolutely go to bat for, forever: delete Raleigh, make the movie about Mako. The other stuff's all hypothesizing about how you could change Pacific Rim's subtext, if you wanted to change Pacific Rim's subtext. Obviously, if you want a futurist movie you leave it exactly how it is.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:56
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I don't really have anything to say about this movie except for the fact that their commisary meal being blue jello, psketti and canned vegetables is really funny to me. Everyone in this movie is just like a big kid so that felt like it made perfect sense. It had a good 80's anime vibe to it, down to the kind of secondhand Lou Gossett, Jr./Carl Weathers anime black man with a mustache. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's so shonen that they hug at the end instead of kiss. Everyone in this movie is 12 years old. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:My clue was the commissary food: I'm bringing this up again because I think most people are missing an important point, that all the characters are kids except for Stacker Pentecost who is the authority/father figure. Played by adults, but they are all children, even Herc Hansen who I read as more of Chuck's big bro than his dad, and Hannibal Chau who's more like the greedy kid on the playground than an evil capitalist. He's played for laughs and I never got any real sense of menace from him. To kind of marry this with Jefferoo's reading, approach the movie as if you're 10. A Capital H Hero is someone who Takes Action and Does Things, sometimes smart (power of teamwork), sometimes dumb ("We can either sit here and do nothing or grab those flare guns and do something really stupid"), but they don't sit around and talk or build walls and ignore the problem. That's something a boring grown up would do. What I'm saying is that any reading of this film political or economic or racial should incorporate this POV. Does fascism mean anything to a 10 year old?
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Jul 18, 2013 17:58
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If it is, I wonder if it might be something akin to 10 year old to adults: "Gods, all you do is sit and talk and politic and try to prove yourself superior or get your way out of it and make money or poo poo. BE A HERO AND ACT TO FIX THE drat PROBLEM ALREADY!" Heroes seem to have conviction and direction and act to resolve situations. Bad example but something like Gendo vs Shinji. Shinji's out there risking life and limb for humanity, acting, while Gendo manipulates everything behind the scenes to get his own goal out of it.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:02
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BP Guthrie posted:I'm bringing this up again because I think most people are missing an important point, that all the characters are kids except for Stacker Pentecost who is the authority/father figure. Played by adults, but they are all children, even Herc Hansen who I read as more of Chuck's big bro than his dad, and Hannibal Chau who's more like the greedy kid on the playground than an evil capitalist. He's played for laughs and I never got any real sense of menace from him. Stacker is the now-single dad that lets you continue to play with your giant toys that keep the fighting (monsters) away despite the adult solution being to put them away and grow up (get inside the walls) to the extent that he even helps you destroy your mother (vaginal dimensional rift) so that the monsters (fights) stop. He even lets you hang out with a girl! UNSUPERVISED! (There's a charm to that line of thinking  but ehhhhh)
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Jul 18, 2013 18:03
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Ferrinus posted:Like I said, here's the one change I will absolutely go to bat for, forever: delete Raleigh, make the movie about Mako. Or make him the sidekick and not know it. Worked for Big Trouble in Little China. You just need a Kurt Russell. "It's all in the reflexes" *PARAGON TRUCKER throws sword at kaiju, bounces off* sean10mm fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 18:04
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Ferrinus posted:Edit: I'm not saying the movie NEEDED to be changed so drastically (although I DO firmly say that whatever else happens, Raleigh just needs to be deleted and have Hansen play any of his important parts, because ye gods), just that it'd be one way to make Pacific Rim a more introspective and revolutionary movie. As is, the Kaiju are nothing but obstacles to be destroyed with maximum zeal - which actually propagates, rather than solves, the contempt for nature which brought on the Kaiju in the first place. I figured out what's bugging me about this impression. Let's compare it to Godzilla. That film's kaiju, you might say, represents the terrible destructive power of the atomic bomb - it was invited by atomic detonation in much the same way that Pacific Rim's kaiju were invited by pollution. The Oxygen Destroyer stops the monster - but it doesn't solve the problem of the atomic bomb existing. Of course, in Godzilla, the Oxygen Destroyer is basically just a bigger nuke, and by having its inventor take the secret to his grave, it depicts an alternate metaphorical history, one in which nuclear genie was never let out of the bottle, where the bomb could never be used again. Likewise, in Pacific Rim, the jaegers are just ever higher technology. Pacific Rim differs from Godzilla, though, in that identifies the pollution problem as political rather than technological, and the alternate history it depicts is one in which mankind came together to do something about it instead of ignoring it.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:05
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Maxwell Lord posted:At a certain point, though, you're no longer criticizing the film that was made and instead saying they should have made a completely different movie. I like how some people go "this film doesn't promote liberal socialism", and we're supposed to recoil in horror? Unity through strength doesn't seem like such a bad message to me.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:05
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Waffles Inc. posted:Just as a precursor: I loved the gently caress out of this movie and my friends and I had a blast while seeing it. I bought an action figure. It's really more simple than that. People dislike SMG because he likes to hear himself speak. He talks a lot and says very little. He sees depth in everything and uses this in an attempt to make himself appear deep and insightful. Instead what he offers is pure, undiluted meaningless conjecture. The phrase "meaningless conjecture" should link to a SMG post when doing a definition check.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:16
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's really more simple than that. People dislike SMG because he likes to hear himself speak. He talks a lot and says very little. He sees depth in everything and uses this in an attempt to make himself appear deep and insightful. Instead what he offers is pure, undiluted meaningless conjecture. The phrase "meaningless conjecture" should link to a SMG post when doing a definition check. What gets me is his penchant for blurring the line between what is the text from the movie and what is his interpretation of the subtext in his posts. If you want to go off on some unexplored tangent about how jaegars are corporations or Mako using the sword is penis envy, go for it; but don't present the speculations as if the movie is explicit about it.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:19
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SMG's readings are greatly entertaining to read. I don't care if he liked the film or not! It shouldn't matter.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:21
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Xenomrph posted:Kinda-sorta. They say "you can't fight a hurricane" in the opening voice-over, and then later in-dialogue they say "this is a Category III Kaiju". I can only assume the connection/naming convention is implied, although it's not outright stated. It's 100% intentional since we're supposed to initially view the kaiju as a series of escalating natural disasters. Newt/Charlie is the one who finally realizes the truth behind what he's probably thought all along: the kaiju aren't incidental environmental factors that just "got worse" over time. You can't just put up a wall or sit in a shelter until the storm passes. They're literally being assembled from giant muscle extrusion machines onto grown bone frames, and are being equipped specifically to fight our giant robots. You can't fight a hurricane. Unless you come together and build a giant robot. Then you can overcome a hurricane obviously, and that's the moral of the story. We need to build giant robots instead of getting complacent when a hurricane is en route to flood the southeastern US.
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Jul 18, 2013 18:32
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's really more simple than that. People dislike SMG because he likes to hear himself speak. He talks a lot and says very little. He sees depth in everything and uses this in an attempt to make himself appear deep and insightful. Instead what he offers is pure, undiluted meaningless conjecture. The phrase "meaningless conjecture" should link to a SMG post when doing a definition check. There is depth in everything. What are some instances where you would say there's no depth? Everything is created for a reason, especially in a visual medium like film. Even if something is unintentional in a shot or in the script or in a performance, all of us, from the director to the scriptwriter to the actor are influenced by things in the world. For instance, this is a gritty sci-fi world and one of the juvenile-acting characters is named 'Newt'. Did the screenwriter name him as an homage to 'Aliens'? If so, what was the intention behind it? If there wasn't a writer's intention aside from, "Cool name.", then it's still worth examining for why and how that name effects the film: - What does it mean to have an Aliens-homage character chased and sought out by an alien creature? In fact, the tongue flails around but doesn't eat Newt in Pac Rim much like the creature in Alien 3 doesn't eat Ripley. - Is it meaningful that the Aliens-homage character seeks a Kaiju (alien) brain to "connect with", when the namesake Newt in 'Aliens' features a scene wherein she wisely says there's "no monsters in [the doll's head] because it's just a piece of plastic"? And then, what do those things mean? Etc etc onward and onward. It's not meaningless conjecture, it's what the whole of literary criticism is about. Things in pop culture aren't created in a vacuum, and to understand them better means to understand our world better. Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 18:36
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BP Guthrie posted:What I'm saying is that any reading of this film political or economic or racial should incorporate this POV. Does fascism mean anything to a 10 year old? Hmm. When I was 10, I went on a school trip to the Nazi Majdanek Concentration Camp (actually, a death camp, not just a concentration camp). Sadly, it only confirmed to me what I had known before, that humans were bastards who would turn at each other and otherise each other if they only could, and would use any excuse for this (Nazis vs. Jews, Poles, Roma, gays...). That in-depth analysis of the human soul had been provided to me thanks to growing up in a pathological family and, especially, years of bullying and being the outsider at school. So, to answer your question, turning this on the head - the relevant theme would be bullying, I suppose? And, for fascism, growing up with authoritarian and demanding parents? In 'traditional' families, perhaps? (I'd really love to see a mother from a traditional family explain to her kid the existence of the Kaiju's umbilical cord.) In one of my previous posts, I wrote how I admired Stacker as a foster father to Mako. Now that I think of it, it might have been related to my private trauma. meristem fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 18:42
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Good point. So how does a hero deal with a bully? (from our hypothetical 10 year old's POV) We see it in the film: Bully is mean but redeemable, Chuck Hansen - beat him up on the playground, he learns a valuable lesson, becomes your friend. Bully is irredeemable, all the Kaiju - power up the Jaeger, ROCKET FIST
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Jul 18, 2013 18:57
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jivjov posted:What gets me is his penchant for blurring the line between what is the text from the movie and what is his interpretation of the subtext in his posts. If you want to go off on some unexplored tangent about how jaegars are corporations or Mako using the sword is penis envy, go for it; but don't present the speculations as if the movie is explicit about it. Phallus =/= penis. It's literally a phallus. It's obviously not literally a penis (pops out of an arm, is made of metal, etc.) The robots are also not 'corporations'. One thing Jeferoo has made clear is the link between Pacific Rim and fascism. Not all films are fascist, (Dark Knight is liberal, Iron Man libertarian, Superman a legit communist), but this one actually is. It's Starship Troopers. Specifically, the political model it endorses (sarcastically?) is one of Third Positionism - one where ownership of the means of production is distributed among the 'productive members of society'. Third Positionists present themselves as nationalist revolutionaries who are neither capitalist nor communist for this reason. They just want all the productive members of society to unite against the ethnic other. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:00
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Man this thread flies by when you try to grab a few hours sleep.Waffles Inc. posted:There is depth in everything. What are some instances where you would say there's no depth? Everything is created for a reason, especially in a visual medium like film. Even if something is unintentional in a shot or in the script or in a performance, all of us, from the director to the scriptwriter to the actor are influenced by things in the world. For instance, this is a gritty sci-fi world and one of the juvenile-acting characters is named 'Newt'. Did the screenwriter name him as an homage to 'Aliens'? If so, what was the intention behind it? If there wasn't a writer's intention aside from, "Cool name.", then it's still worth examining for why and how that name effects the film. This is true, but at the same time, there have been the women in this thread that have pointed out how gross "sword = penis" is as a default mindset, and that while the presentation may be high and mighty, it's childish, shallow analysis that seeks to boosts one's own credentials and supposed intellectualism than the actual content of the text, as I have pointed out numerous times SMG's utterly untrue recollections of the film. quote:SMG's readings are greatly entertaining to read. I don't care if he liked the film or not! It shouldn't matter. They're okay if you're willing to turn your brain off.  Ferrinus posted:Like I said, here's the one change I will absolutely go to bat for, forever: delete Raleigh, make the movie about Mako. While Pacific Rim ties into the childlike fun of playing with action figures and storycrafting with it's larger than life action, it's still a pointless exercise that distracts from honestly engaging with the film and what it's saying about the world. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Phallus =/= penis. Dodging. quote:One thing Jefferoo has made clear is the link between Pacific Rim and fascism. Not all films are fascist, (Dark Knight is liberal, Iron Man libertarian, Superman a legit communist), but this one actually is. It's Starship Troopers. You've got me, I'm a fascist because I stand behind a film that cries out for collective action against massive, undefinable threats beyond comprehension instead of legitimizing the philosopher. quote:Specifically, the political model it endorses (sarcastically?) is one of Third Positionism - one where ownership of the means of production is distributed among the 'productive members of society'. Third Positionists present themselves as nationalist revolutionaries who are neither capitalist nor communist for this reason. They just want all the productive members of society to unite against the ethnic other. The problem with this premise is the equation of natural disasters with an ethnic other - to Pacific Rim, it is arguing for humanity's survival in a dire hour, and not an optimum governing philosophy. Jefferoo fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:18
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The international community coming together is incredibly fascist. It is interesting that the most "intellectual" of posters in this thread doesn't know the definitions of words he uses. But then again isn't the fun of deconstructionism being able to make text say whatever you want it to?
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Jul 18, 2013 19:21
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:The international community coming together is incredibly fascist. You'd think that SMG's continuous references to Zizek would tip people off that he's not a deconstructionist, but alas.
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Jul 18, 2013 19:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They just want all the productive members of society to unite against the ethnic other. In this case the ethnic other really is a pan-dimensional alien killing machine bent on murdering everyone for it's extra-terrestrial masters, not a fellow human being. You cannot apply human morality to kaiju.
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Jul 18, 2013 19:29
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ru5tyb1ke5 posted:You'd think that SMG's continuous references to Zizek would tip people off that he's not a deconstructionist, but alas. Or you could read his posts where it's quite obvious. (seeing things that aren't there is a pretty big tipoff) I mean you can read and cite other philosophers while still adhering to bits of other philosophies.
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Jul 18, 2013 19:30
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BP Guthrie posted:Good point. So how does a hero deal with a bully? (from our hypothetical 10 year old's POV) We see it in the film: Hmm. Back to my 10-year old... I think that she would say that the point of bullying/fascism was to make everyone think the same things, and to destroy those who thought differently (since she was the "other" in her social group). That's Pan's Labyrinth for you, though. In Pacific Rim, that's mostly resolved: the message is not only "unite to win", it's "unite to win, but remain individuals". That's why there's no military, the Jaegers are different, they come from different countries. It's like, we could envision a Pacific Rim where humanity became a fascist society only totally dedicated to spitting out Jaegers (think World War II war efforts). That would be a bleak, interesting vision, to an adult, but it would mean that we have already lost, wouldn't it? Would you be able to have the pure fun watching the film if you knew that?
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Jul 18, 2013 19:30
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:The international community coming together is incredibly fascist. ...No? No, no it automatically isn't. It can come together to achieve a fascist goal, sure, but working together isn't automatically a fascist ideal. The PPDC isn't fascist, it's quite simply necessary. edit: oh, my bad ;P Jefferoo fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:31
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I was mocking SMG's terrible posts. Equating an interdimensional alien entity that wishes to wipe you out to colonize your world to the "other" is just silly. Also he'd have to equate the entirety of humanity as a single nation for his fascism comparison to hold any water.
Fuck This Puzzle fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:32
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:The international community coming together is incredibly fascist. Again, I'm using the example of Starship Troopers and its message of 'war makes fascists of us all'. That film likewise presents the entire earth as united against the bugs. Racism between humans is ended once people unite against the abjectly inhuman. However, you'd be very oblivious to miss the nationalistic aspect of the robots. Why else does the jaeger generator app thing put so much emphasis on the flags? Third Positionists are not against alliances with other nations than their own. They will actually support national liberation movements in other nations in order to bring about a confederation of, in this case, (ethnically segregated/homogeneous) nation-states.
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Jul 18, 2013 19:37
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Ferrinus posted:So what you're saying is, our contempt for nature brought them through the portal. That's not what I'm saying. We made it easier for them to inevitably conquer us. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Phallus =/= penis. You're splitting hairs here. 'Phallus' literally means 'penis' in latin & greek. its all nice on rice fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:38
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