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Blackchamber posted:I've seen the movie twice already and I was wondering if seeing it in 3D was worth it or not... anyone? I didn't feel like it added anything to it, made the ending a bit more visually pleasing but beyond that I didn't notice it much.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:25
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meristem posted:In a fascist film, the enemy would be otherised and treated with scorn. No one treats the Kaiju as such. 1. The Kaiju are otherized and treated with scorn 2. PPDC and "humanity" are venerated and multiple characters sacrifice themselves to defend either or both 3. The protagonists are peerless warriors and their capability to psychically link with each other and pilot the robots is a rare, innate quality that must be tested for 4. The characters in this movie suffer for disobedience and ultimately act in favor of their organization, never questioning anything but its bottom-level tactical decisions 5. Stacker is a strong leader, superlative Jaeger pilot, mighty warrior, loving father figure, etc. etc. etc. "Never makes mistakes" is a stupid standard that doesn't actually apply to anything, anywhere and it's bizarre that you'd toss it out at the end of your post.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:28
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PaganGoatPants posted:There's one before it actually that starts off with some heavy string bass. Haven't heard it on the OST. It starts when Tresspasser attacks. This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-mQ8IqHTtA Srice posted:I don't see why both can't be discussed in the same thread. The conversation that's happening is the exact same. It's just a couple of autists making the same points over and over.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:30
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Ferrinus posted:Fascism unites through exclusion. By designating a loathsome and inhuman enemy, it brings together people who aren't part of that enemy group. Like, you realize that there wasn't an aryan master race and then all the rest, right? The Germans who weren't excluded by virtue of being Jewish or gay or whatever weren't literally clones of each other, they still differed in terms of ancestry, outlook, life experience, etc. But they were persuaded to think of themselves as one homogenous people by virtue of not being the excluded group. Nazi Germany was no more united than it ever was, even excluding the minorities that were purged. People just stopped talking about those differences, on pain of death, even as selected nazi cliques got advantages whilst the country was driven into economic ruin. The idea that fascism is about 'acknowledging differences and uniting despite them' is just such a hilarious misrepresentation. Have you studied history at all? Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 21:31
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Ferrinus posted:1. The Kaiju are otherized and treated with scorn They are also worshipped and held up as "awesome".
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Jul 21, 2013 21:32
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RBA Starblade posted:So if multiple ideologies and political structures share similar values and you acknowledge this and that the similar values are shared between, at the very least, "liberal democracy" and "fascism", why are you declaring that Pacific Rim is specifically fascist over those same values, and why not liberalism/democratic? Not quite. What I said was that America (and for that matter, many Western nations) was a liberal democracy, but just because one form of narrative is politically dominant, it doesn't mean that there aren't other kinds of subordinate/non-political narratives in that nation. Hence why it's possible to have a fascist narrative (and communist narratives, and libertarian narratives, and environmentalist narratives) in a non-fascist nation. You could argue there are non-fascist narratives in Pacific Rim, and though there's a lot less phase-space available in a two-hour film than there is in a country of 300 million, I'd say that you are right. As mentioned before, there's a pacifist narrative in how the jaeger pilots are decidedly non-military. But my reading is that the fascist narrative is strongest and clearest - at the very least, it exists. meristem posted:Not exclusive to fascism Lots of things aren't exclusive to fascism. Pacific Rim isn't exclusively fascist. But the fascist reading is strongest - I think, anyway. It definitely explains a lot of the choices. You're more than welcome to explain how Pacific Rim is a liberal narrative, or whatever narrative you think it is. I think the cultural lexicon associated with fascism hits most if not all parts of the film, but if there's another I'd like to hear it.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:34
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I love this thread. I'm not being sarcastic in anyway whatsoever either.  
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Jul 21, 2013 21:35
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Fangz posted:Nazi Germany was no more united than it ever was, even excluding the minorities that were purged. People just stopped talking about those differences, on pain of death, even as selected nazi cliques got advantages whilst the country was driven into economic ruin. The idea that fascism is about 'acknowledging differences and uniting despite them' is just such a hilarious misrepresentation. Have you studied history at all? So I ctrl-Fed the last couple pages and could not find anyone using the phrase you've put into apostrophes except for you, in this post, right now, that I'm quoting. What the gently caress is this. You're also, obviously, missing the point. Fascism in practice is a monstrous failure. Fascism in theory unites disparate peoples against an external aggressor. Was the actual Reich the wonderland of brotherly cooperation depicted on various propaganda posters? Obviously not. Did it sell itself as a single, united whole, mobilized at last to destroy its enemies within and without and finally actualize the true destiny of the German people? Yes, of course. RBA Starblade posted:They are also worshipped and held up as "awesome". By a squirrely nerd who's immediately treated with scorn by the movie's actual protagonists. He redeems himself, though, because it turns out that his fascination with the Kaiju in no way detracts from his will to (help) kill them all.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:41
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I'm surprised people think of Stacker as a hero figure as to me he comes off as a very weak man hiding under a large amount of bluster. The way he reacts to Raleigh when he's touched is so exaggerated I can't help but think he's terrified that his facade might slip and they'll find out how frail he is. Even his heroic sacrifice is tarnished because he's dying anyway so he has nothing to lose. I might be reading too much into the cheesy acting here.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:46
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Ferrinus posted:So I ctrl-Fed the last couple pages and could not find anyone using the phrase you've put into apostrophes except for you, in this post, right now, that I'm quoting. What the gently caress is this. The point is that fascism operates on an absolute dichotomy: differences are either non-existent, or they are insurmountable (or should not be surmounted, lest contamination occur). And that this dichotomy is fixed and transcendent. The multicultural perspective allows the idea of recognising differences and still co-existing with them, with an organic interweaving of cultures that are allowed to develop over time, adopting the positive aspects of each. That's the model Pacific Rim operates in, that is utterly alien to everything the fascists aimed for. Do you see a Nazi talking about all the different types of Aryan? Edit: To the fascists, the Reich can be a single united whole because they believe it is homogenous, and they build this homogeneity by slicing away the different parts as best they can. The PPDC can be a united and effective whole precisely because it is heterogeneous, and they build this heterogeneity by agglomerating some very different people. These are totally opposite things. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 21:49
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Fangz posted:The point is that fascism operates on an absolute dichotomy: differences are either non-existent, or they are insurmountable (or should not be surmounted, lest contamination occur). And that this dichotomy is fixed and transcendent. The multicultural perspective allows the idea of recognising differences and still co-existing with them, with an organic interweaving of cultures that are allowed to develop over time, adopting the positive aspects of each. Go read the Futurist manifesto a third time. Does it claim that differences are non-existent? No. Did fascist Italy or Germany sort people at random into jobs like "doctor" or "technician" because differences are non-existent? No. You're describing an insane and ridiculous attitude not characteristic of any earthly ideology; nobody, whether Hitler or Galt, believes or was portrayed to believe that their followers were interchangeable worker ants whose different origins, experiences, and skill sets were irrelevant to the point of being imaginary.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:52
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brawleh posted:
I already mentioned this, but okay: the baby was a trap for Newt, not the Jaegers. The Masters knew what he was up to and knew he'd either be in the secondary brain area or near it and the baby wasn't, for lack of a better term, born until there were humans right next to it and the secondary brain. Polaron fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 21:58
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Blackchamber posted:I've seen the movie twice already and I was wondering if seeing it in 3D was worth it or not... anyone? Like most 3D movies, the effect kind of wears off toward the end and you don't even realize it. However, I do feel it was a pretty good 3D conversion; the first skirmish between Gipsy and Knifehead was pretty awesome. I saw it in IMAX 3D initially, then a standard non-3D/non-IMAX theater the other night. I honestly don't prefer one over the other. Both are a treat either way  But if you do see it in 3D, make sure you catch in an IMAX 3D cinema, not RealD or whatever.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:04
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Can Del Toro please reboot Transformers?
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Jul 21, 2013 22:09
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'The Core' is a fascist movie that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to destroy the Earth, causing international cooperation in creating a high-tech device that can deploy a nuclear bomb to avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'Lord of the Rings' is a fascist series that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to destroy Middle-Earth, causing international cooperation in deploying a hobbit that can avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'Armageddon' is a fascist movie that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to destroy the Earth, causing international cooperation in creating a high-tech device that can deploy a nuclear bomb to avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'Independence Day' is a fascist movie that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to destroy the Earth, causing international cooperation in deploying an iBook and nuclear bomb to avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'Star Wars' is a fascist series that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to oppress the Galaxy, causing international cooperation in creating a high-tech devices that can avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'Terminator' is a fascist series that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to destroy the world, causing international cooperation in deploying high-tech devices that can avert it, rather than negotiate with it. 'World War 2' is a fascist event that features a hugely powerful enemy that threatens to oppress the world, causing international cooperation in deploying high-tech devices that can avert it, rather than negotiate with it.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:10
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Uh... the point's been repeatedly made that "cooperation" is neither uniquely fascist nor anti-fascist but instead features in almost every story told by humans. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2013 22:15
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Just like there being an opposing force for the protagonist to work against, or the protagonist using some sort of tool or device?
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Jul 21, 2013 22:18
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loving Christ! You've spent what? 500 posts defining Fascism? Take it to PM or a new thread!
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Jul 21, 2013 22:20
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When I saw this the first time I was actually expecting Gottleib to be a spy/alien or something and the limb was a clue. I really only thought this because the movie was going through so many callbacks to the old Godzilla movies which often had one of the characters actually be an alien/gorilla/cockroack/robot whatever. Then I remembered that by now thats such a lame cliche that even the Starship Troopers sequel did it. Just throwin' that out there to break up the philosophy chat for a bit.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:25
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I am a fascist and I approve of this fascist movie.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:27
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On Capitalist Consumerist Chat, what's Amazon going to do?
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Jul 21, 2013 22:29
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Shadeoses posted:Just like there being an opposing force for the protagonist to work against, or the protagonist using some sort of tool or device? Yes. Those things, too, are elements of a wide variety of narratives and native to no specific ideology. It takes much more specific details to pin down which ideology or ideologies a given work expresses. For instance, Star Wars loses fascism points for the philosophy of nonviolence and understanding that ultimately allows Luke to redeem Vader. On the other hand, Lord of the Rings is wayyy up there with its pastoral idealism and disgusting, corrupted orcs and so forth.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:30
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We should step back for a moment to look at the film's aesthetics - specifically the moment where Hero Guy stops to say this is real, in direct opposition to Mako's surreal memories which are not real. While many would consider the 'realism' of what happens self-evident (just as it's self-evident that the kaiju are objects who deserve to be enslaved  ) it's fairly clear that reality in the film (and to the characters) is a shared symbolic fiction similar to that of The Matrix. This is well before the whole drifting invention complicates who is thinking what, whose memories are whose.... See the scenes of characters credulously watching CNN, the montage of TV footage that opens the film. Is television real? Is the film, which is explicitly narrated to us, with flowery language, real?I suppose it was a mistake to take for granted that we all understood that the film is not an objective retelling of actual ("in-universe") events - that what we are seeing is no less of an exaggeration than Stacker standing haloed by sunlight in Mako's dreams, except that we've agreed to accept it. The reason jaeger and kaiju are paralleled is that Pacific Rim follows the same logic as Terminator, The Matrix, Man Of Steel, Alien/Aliens, Battle: Los Angeles, The Thing, etc., where 'underneath' the 'everyday' symbolic reality is the Real reality of cold bio-mechanical determinism, where the steak you're eating is just a lump of carbon and what you perceive as free choice is really determined by such things as your genetic code. The jaeger caught up in the system really are the same as the kaiju -perhaps identical. This is what makes the extreme reaction against the kaiju look like projection. "They are objects, they are puppets and drones, but I am free and I am strong." So what people are talking about with this 'fascism ' stuff is not some rhetorical game, but something that really cuts into the heart of what the film is about - whether it promotes a false freedom of the sort promoted by real people in this very thread. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 22:30
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Uncle Wemus posted:When I saw this the first time I was actually expecting Gottleib to be a spy/alien or something and the limb was a clue. I really only thought this because the movie was going through so many callbacks to the old Godzilla movies which often had one of the characters actually be an alien/gorilla/cockroack/robot whatever. Then I remembered that by now thats such a lame cliche that even the Starship Troopers sequel did it. That makes surprising sense considering how weird the acting is. I'm just going to assume that he is actually an Alien now but never gets discovered.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:32
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Ferrinus posted:On the other hand, Lord of the Rings is wayyy up there with its pastoral idealism and disgusting, corrupted orcs and so forth. Lord of the Rings specifically identified its antagonist with totalitarianism, one of the more important and objectionable parts of fascism.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:33
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I don't think its particularly new or novel to read fascism in pulp sci fi to be perfectly honest. SMG's original post was interesting but at this point the topic is running in circles and is getting pretty obnoxious.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:36
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NoneSuch posted:I'm surprised people think of Stacker as a hero figure as to me he comes off as a very weak man hiding under a large amount of bluster. The way he reacts to Raleigh when he's touched is so exaggerated I can't help but think he's terrified that his facade might slip and they'll find out how frail he is. Even his heroic sacrifice is tarnished because he's dying anyway so he has nothing to lose. Stacker has been a part of the Jaeger program since the start, hes piloted them into battle against Kaiju and he's even piloted solo in battle and won. Stacker is a war horse and a badass to me. Maybe you are right though, maybe he is a weak in the same way that Batman goes out and beats criminals and super-villains but is weak because hes really just upset his mommy and daddy are dead (dude STILL cries about that poo poo, amirite?). I think his sacrifice is great because of what hes fighting for, not dependent on how little he has to lose. I don't think anyone who was fighting the Kaiju was shown to have much to lose either. Raleigh signed back up at the wall because he didn't have anything to lose and wanted to at least go down fighting.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:55
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The trolling formula for popcorn sci-fi/comic book/fantasy movies in CD is so simple I'm surprised nobody has spelled it out. It plays out exactly the same almost every single time. 1) Find a film that's broadly popular among the "nerds" around here (or has a lot of "nerd" blowback) 2) Explain how it's really about fascism and/or rape (or a CRITIQUE of fascism and/or rape) 3) Hand-wave (or simply ignore) any counter-points posted by people dumb enough to engage with you 4) Subtly imply that people who disagree with you like fascism and/or rape (but not so obviously that you can't backtrack/dodge it later)  BONUS ROUND Block quote from a famous "pop" post-modern writer something that's at best tangentially related to your point BONUS ROUND Just wait for someone dumb to post that you need to "shut off your brain" and jump on that immediately as if that's the only criticism you're getting
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Jul 21, 2013 22:59
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sean10mm posted:The trolling formula for popcorn sci-fi/comic book/fantasy movies in CD is so simple I'm surprised nobody has spelled it out. It plays out exactly the same almost every single time. I don't think SMG is trolling, I'm pretty sure he has legit autism. Especially after the "Could this movie be promoting escapism?!?" remark. EDIT: To be clear, I'm not mocking that statement because I don't agree with it, I'm mocking it because its pretty obvious it is (Being about Giant Robots and all.)and his presentation of it as a startling truth he uncovered through psychoanalysis is pretty stupid. Peruser fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:02
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Ferrinus posted:By a squirrely nerd who's immediately treated with scorn by the movie's actual protagonists. He redeems himself, though, because it turns out that his fascination with the Kaiju in no way detracts from his will to (help) kill them all. Newt as well, but the movie goes out of its way to say "hey, some of humanity is worshiping the Kaiju and calling them divine" (or instruments of the divine, I forget which exactly), remember? They had a temple made out of their bones and everything. quote:"They are objects, they are puppets and drones, but i am free and I am strong." Turns out the real fascist female monsters was man. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:02
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Bongo Bill posted:Lord of the Rings specifically identified its antagonist with totalitarianism, one of the more important and objectionable parts of fascism. So totalitarian and generally monstrous that they couldn't ever be reasoned with and all had to be destroyed in order to defend our proud traditionals, pastoral way of life, etc. A Lord of the Rings that involved humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs all allying against the totalitarian regime of Sauron would be a very different movie. And it's not like modern day fascists won't seriously tell you about the evil, totalitarian Jewish conspiracy that seeks to hold the world in an iron grip or whatever the hell. RBA Starblade posted:Newt as well, but the movie goes out of its way to say "hey, some of humanity is worshiping the Kaiju and calling them divine", remember? They had a temple made out of their bones and everything. Ooh, yeah, I'd forgotten that. I guess it just goes to show that you can't trust people to know what's best for them.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:04
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Shadeoses posted:On Capitalist Consumerist Chat, what's Amazon going to do? I don't know myself, but let me take this opportunity to segway into newlywed team Russia posing with a toy Cherno Alpha.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:07
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Shadeoses posted:On Capitalist Consumerist Chat, what's Amazon going to do? (sorry people who have been ctrl-fing either of those words)
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Jul 21, 2013 23:11
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Whatever the symbolism the way Elba and Hunnan play that scene is great. Really sells Stacker as a badass and Raleigh's underlying respect for him.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:12
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Just got back from seeing this and there were less than 10 people in the theater, what a shame. 
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Jul 21, 2013 23:14
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Ferrinus posted:So totalitarian and generally monstrous that they couldn't ever be reasoned with and all had to be destroyed in order to defend our proud traditionals, pastoral way of life, etc. A Lord of the Rings that involved humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs all allying against the totalitarian regime of Sauron would be a very different movie. And it's not like modern day fascists won't seriously tell you about the evil, totalitarian Jewish conspiracy that seeks to hold the world in an iron grip or whatever the hell. And if the Orcs had broken out of their artificially-induced inherent slavery (which did make Tolkien uncomfortable, since they were thinking, sapient and culture creating beings), it would still be just as horrible and fascist because Sauron didn't break down and unite with the Free Peoples in a Christlike redemption. And if Sauron had broken down and united with them, then it would be even more fascist because it would show that there was a  perfect, unquestionable system of morals and righteousness that not even godlike beings can resist. It's Hitlers all the way down. Skellybones fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:16
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Blackchamber posted:I've seen the movie twice already and I was wondering if seeing it in 3D was worth it or not... anyone? I preferred 2D, but I'm a freak who has 3D blur on them sometimes. I just saw it in 3D first because that was the theatre with the awesome speakers. Also, why is it that film and lit critics use political and psychological ideas in ways that people that actually study those fields don't? I've seen Freud in here (who's been discredited for decades as actually being even close to correct, even if he did start the field of psych) and some weird, loose definitions of facism. It's fuckin' weird, man.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:31
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Ferrinus posted:So totalitarian and generally monstrous that they couldn't ever be reasoned with and all had to be destroyed in order to defend our proud traditionals, pastoral way of life, etc. A Lord of the Rings that involved humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs all allying against the totalitarian regime of Sauron would be a very different movie. And it's not like modern day fascists won't seriously tell you about the evil, totalitarian Jewish conspiracy that seeks to hold the world in an iron grip or whatever the hell. "Totalitarian" has a more specific definition than that - it means total subordination to the state, in all aspects of public and private life. It's explicitly one of the cornerstones of fascism, at least as much important as the abjection of outsiders or the nationalism; if a text isn't totalitarian by a certain standard, it's almost certainly not fascist by that same standard. (The books specifically consider totalitarianism to be the highest evil and repeatedly support this theme. In The Silmarillion, there are several instances where the Enemy or some servant thereof is defeated by an alliance between a free people and an uprising of slaves. You were talking about the films, of course, but even the films open with the battle that defeated Sauron at the end of the Second Age, and the Last Alliance fighting that battle was between elves, who were free, and men, who were rebelling against Sauron's regime. I'll grant the film does not make this evident, but it's clearly in the interest of simplification rather than ideological disagreement, with the net effect of weakening the book's anti-fascist stance to merely a non-fascist book in which the antagonists are fascist. It is an enormous story, and in my opinion more clearly understood using a theological taxonomy of ideas than a political one, and for this reason I think it was not the best example you could have chosen.)
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Jul 21, 2013 23:39
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Also, why is it that film and lit critics use political and psychological ideas in ways that people that actually study those fields don't? I've seen Freud in here (who's been discredited for decades as actually being even close to correct, even if he did start the field of psych) and some weird, loose definitions of facism. It's fuckin' weird, man. Performative intellectualism, the act of bringing in definitions and ideals from various fields of study whilst not actually being qualified to properly speak on them, for the sake of appearing above it all and those stupid nerds. It runs along the same lines almost every time and is pretty easy to satirize if you know how to say nothing whilst writing lots for a living. (i.e., copywriting) Jefferoo fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:46
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Schwarzwald posted:I don't know myself, but let me take this opportunity to segway into newlywed team Russia posing with a toy Cherno Alpha. I think it's supposed to be a false perspective thing with the real Cherno Alpha, like all those pictures people take at the Leaning Tower of Pisa. So cute 
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