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Diabolik900 posted:And for your own good, stay out if this thread until you've watched it. Solid response to my question, really narrowed down my options there.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:02
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clockworx posted:HBO Go or Netflix DVDs Thanks, not what I was hoping for, but it will have to do. I hate waiting for the DVDs in the mail.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:03
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Bulls Hit posted:Solid response to my question, really narrowed down my options there. This is the best advice and you're being stupid. Stop being needy (I don't like waiting for DVDs by mail), watch The Wire, and then come back to the thread. You don't want it spoiled for you. Slo-Tek posted:This is probably a generational thing. "It makes me sick, motherfucker, to see how far we done fell" sort of stuff. This is a good post. You wouldn't find the "user's utopia" (I don't know what else to call it) in Baltimore because it doesn't reflect their values, even those that dislike drugs but know the war on them is stupid and not winnable. When you see ideas like this or with the schools in season four, it's generally outsiders. You get people from Hopkins who are likely not Baltimore natives or the psychologist (social worker? I forget) in season four who gets cited as being from Montgomery County. As outsiders looking in, we get the sense "no, you guys should do it like this!" which in my opinion, may create its own set of problems.
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Aug 4, 2013 19:06
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Bulls Hit posted:Thanks, not what I was hoping for, but it will have to do. I hate waiting for the DVDs in the mail. What exactly were you hoping for?  ?
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Aug 4, 2013 19:16
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Skeesix posted:What exactly were you hoping for? Yeah HBO is pretty stingy about it's stuff, you don't really have a whole lot of options to get it unfortunately. The guy who recommended you stay out of the thread until you're done was just being helpful! We casually talk about spoilers all the time, and if you read the thread too long it's almost a guarantee that you're going to get a powerful moment of the show ruined for you. There's a spoiler-free Wire thread too, but unfortunately it doesn't get a lot of action any more.
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Aug 4, 2013 19:51
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the black husserl posted:I don't understand this. The show makes it explicit: Hamsterdam is allowing health and aid workers to treat addicts that they NEVER would have reached otherwise. Johnny would have died alone in a shooting gallery regardless of whether or not the free zone existed. At least in Hamsterdam he had the chance to get some help and didn't have to die in prison. In a non Hamsterdam world, Johnny would have kept getting into trouble and might have finally hit his bottom like bubbles did and come clean. Hamsterdam is purely reactionary, it enables heroin addicts to get heroin much more easily, allowing them to OD and get eaten by rats. Sure, in a few months it would have meant more of the needle exchange, counseling and aid for the addicts to actually reach them, but a lot of those people, like Johnny, weren't interested in getting out. Seeing the nightmarish hell that the free zones became would have probably scared a lot of people off heroin, but the people trapped inside would just be written off. We'd tell ourselves they chose that and give up on them. While the war on drugs is a farce, there are proponents of it who are acting out of compassion. The free zone solution is born of apathy, Bunny Colvin gave up on those addicts, letting the dealers suck the lives out of them out of sight and out of mind.
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Aug 5, 2013 05:13
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Soupisgood posted:In a non Hamsterdam world, Johnny would have kept getting into trouble and might have finally hit his bottom like bubbles did and come clean. Hamsterdam is purely reactionary, it enables heroin addicts to get heroin much more easily, allowing them to OD and get eaten by rats. Sure, in a few months it would have meant more of the needle exchange, counseling and aid for the addicts to actually reach them, but a lot of those people, like Johnny, weren't interested in getting out. Seeing the nightmarish hell that the free zones became would have probably scared a lot of people off heroin, but the people trapped inside would just be written off. We'd tell ourselves they chose that and give up on them. While the war on drugs is a farce, there are proponents of it who are acting out of compassion. The free zone solution is born of apathy, Bunny Colvin gave up on those addicts, letting the dealers suck the lives out of them out of sight and out of mind. Uh I'm not sure how you can call giving addicts access to medical treatment and support that they never would have otherwise received "giving up on them". Not to mention protecting them from criminal charges. I mean seriously, I'd rather 'give up' on addicts than constantly be pissing in their face, which is what the 'proponents' of the drug war have chosen. Plus, how you can watch the wire and say something as ignorant as "people like Johnny aren't interested in getting out". He was a heroin addict. You act like he just didn't have the guts.
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Aug 5, 2013 06:28
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You ever know a heroin addict or an addict of anything? Not all of them are interested in getting clean.
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Aug 5, 2013 06:51
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GreenCard78 posted:You ever know a heroin addict or an addict of anything? Not all of them are interested in getting clean. Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. You can't "want" your way out of mental illness and the subsequent self medication. Have you read the Corner? Gary actually succeeds in kicking heroin pretty good one time, except that when he does he finds himself with a much worse problem: clinical depression. Which turns out to be more debilitating than heroin addiction, since at least as an addict he could maintain a steady job.
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Aug 5, 2013 08:04
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I wouldn't mind it if America declared a war on depression: no sad news, drugs for everyone, everyone gets a fulfilling job, everyone gets HBO
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Aug 5, 2013 08:08
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Baloogan posted:I wouldn't mind it if America declared a war on depression: no sad news, drugs for everyone, everyone gets a fulfilling job, everyone gets HBO Great, then everyone watches The Wire and we're right back to depression. Smooth idea.
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Aug 5, 2013 09:42
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the black husserl posted:Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. You can't "want" your way out of mental illness and the subsequent self medication. I'm not disagreeing that wanting to stop is insufficient, for the reasons you outlined, but I do think it's necessary.
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Aug 5, 2013 10:59
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the black husserl posted:The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. And also the rich medicate their depression with crack and heroin, it's just that laws are different when you are rich.
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Aug 5, 2013 12:05
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the black husserl posted:Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. Just speaking from personal experience (addict, though not with heroin), I don't interpret the "wanting to get clean" thing as a slight against people who are struggling with recovery. Some people just plain aren't interested in sobriety. They know they're addicted, they know the negative effects, but they don't want to get clean. I fell into that category for a while, which is why the character of Johnny does resonate for me. My addiction shaped my life, but it didn't feel like a personal demon I wrestled with, it felt like an externality that I just navigated through. Being constantly affected threw up obstacles and challenges, but I never really questioned the fact, the necessity of it. That train of thought wouldn't have made sense to me, it's like second-guessing the existence of storm clouds rather than looking for an umbrella. It was a constant of the universe, I based my conception of time around it. In that state of mind, you can find a certain contentment. As Waylon said, he felt like he was doing fine. So did Johnny (and to a lesser extent Bubs). That's why addiction so perfectly mirrors the other institutions in The Wire. It feels like something bigger than you and something outside of you, an invasive dream logic that overwrites everything else in you until it is everything you are.
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Aug 5, 2013 14:45
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awesmoe posted:I've spent like 15 minutes trying to write a reply because I just don't understand what you're saying. You think people don't actually desire the feeling they get from taking drugs? Not as a tool for self medication, but as a goal in and of itself? I suggest reading about Rat Park and the subsequent works by Prof. Bruce K. Alexander. It turns out that when you put rats in a rat-paradise type of environment and make heroin freely available to them, they'll take some, every now and then, and never become addicts. If they are already addicts before going in, they quickly shrug it off and only take some every now and then. Put em in a skinner-box and they'll mash that button all day long. Addiction is caused by alienation, and guess what alienation is caused by. If you guessed "capitalism", you win, except, we all lose.
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Aug 5, 2013 15:09
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Frostwerks posted:Great, then everyone watches The Wire and we're right back to depression. Smooth idea. But in this alternate reality we would just watch The Wire and go "ahahaha, look at this silly assholes, how could they let their world get this way." Which makes me in THIS world depressed  .
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Aug 5, 2013 16:14
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Frostwerks posted:Great, then everyone watches The Wire and we're right back to depression. Smooth idea. The Wire makes me patriotic. We can fix this.
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Aug 5, 2013 18:58
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Bubbs' story makes the pretty clear argument that for addicts to have a hope of recovery they have to hit absolute rock bottom first. It's stated outright when Walon first appears trying to get his nephew (I think) off the corners, but knowing he won't succeed because the kid is still too young to gain that perspective. With Johnny, I think he wasn't an addict for as long as Bubbles and hadn't seen as much poo poo, which is at least part of why he has no interest in getting clean. Although the points raised here are interesting as well. I'll always remember that opening scene from The Corner, where the narrator guy interviews Gary, and Gary states he had a job and a family and all this stuff and then he asks him how he got into drugs and he just walks away.
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Aug 5, 2013 19:04
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the black husserl posted:Uh I'm not sure how you can call giving addicts access to medical treatment and support that they never would have otherwise received "giving up on them". Not to mention protecting them from criminal charges. I mean seriously, I'd rather 'give up' on addicts than constantly be pissing in their face, which is what the 'proponents' of the drug war have chosen.
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Aug 5, 2013 22:10
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Popoi posted:The treatment and support only happened once the Deacon got involved. Colvin makes it clear what his intentions are when Bodie asks why he's doing this, and he answers: "I want to salvage what's still worth salvagin' in my district", which doesn't include the dealers or the addicts. Yeah, he seems perfectly content to just kind of shove it all out of sight, out of mind, and let it do whatever it wants as long as it stays in Hamsterdam. In the scene with the Deacon that you mentioned, you can kind of watch how frustrated Colvin gets with the Deacon for forcing him to actually think about what life is like for the people in Hamsterdam, he wasn't really originally interested in empathizing with them either.
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Aug 5, 2013 22:20
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Orange Devil posted:Addiction is caused by alienation, and guess what alienation is caused by.
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Aug 5, 2013 22:25
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Orange Devil posted:Addiction is caused by alienation, and guess what alienation is caused by. If you guessed "capitalism", you win, except, we all lose. People being assholes is what causes alienation. Can capitalism exacerbate that? Sure, but it ain't the progenitor.
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Aug 5, 2013 23:35
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Frostwerks posted:Great, then everyone watches The Wire and we're right back to depression. Smooth idea. No, then we'd all be happy knowing it actually changed something.
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Aug 6, 2013 17:08
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While we're talking about the Wire's non-liberal stances, I'm currently watching the HBO special on the Cheshire killings, where the perpetrators are portrayed as the "Poster Children for the Death Penalty." Let's talk about the Wire's supportive stance on the death penalty. The Wire portrays the Death Penalty as a wrench to obtain confessions from hardened killers who can't be reached any other way. Essentially, it portrays the death penalty as necessary. Weebay confesses to avoid the death penalty. Although much of what he confesses to is bullshit, he leads the police to information which makes the case. The entire port case is made off of Sergei trying to avoid the death penalty. I'm personally anti-death penalty, but to what extent do people agree with the Wire's portrayal?
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Aug 6, 2013 21:54
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I've considered that argument before, but every time I do, I can't help but rephrase it as "the state should be able to threaten to kill people if they refuse to incriminate themselves." I don't know that The Wire paints that tactic in a positive light, it just puts it out there as a reality of how the system works.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:01
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I think The Wire has too much affection for homicide police to suggest that the death penalty is necessary for their work. David Simon brings up Miranda rights in the book Homicide as a point when high level prosecution members were up in arms about never being able charge anyone ever again, and how interrogation would become useless, yet the detectives themselves, after a bit of moaning maybe, sort of just got on with it and continued to do their work. Rather then 'the death penalty is necessary', I think Simon's perspective is 'Homicide detectives are a smart, ruthless bunch, who will use absolutely every single tool to get a confession.' I would think that if the death penalty did go, he would be pretty sure that interrogations would still work. After all detectives in countries without the death penalty still manage to function.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:35
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awesmoe posted:Any social interaction where a risk of rejection, real or perceived, exists? SubponticatePoster posted:Uh, I don't think you can blame addiction on capitalism. Pretty sure there are people who live in communist/socialist countries who are addicts. I was being really short and working from memory, so I got my terms mixed up. Prof. Alexander posits that addiction (of any kind, including the ones we as a society encourage, like money or power or work) is caused by dislocation. He further posits that the dislocation currently most prevalent and thus causing most addiction worldwide is caused by the form which modern globalization has taken. Again, I'm summarizing extremely here. This webpage goes into more depth, and I can really recommend his book, as I found it made a very compelling case. quote:today’s flood of addiction is occurring because our hyperindividualistic, hypercompetitive, frantic, crisis-ridden society makes most people feel social and culturally isolated. Chronic isolation causes people to look for relief. They find temporary relief in addiction to drugs or any of a thousand other habits and pursuits because addiction allows them to escape from their feelings, to deaden their senses, and to experience an addictive lifestyle as a substitute for a full life.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:42
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ScipioAfro posted:I think The Wire has too much affection for homicide police to suggest that the death penalty is necessary for their work. David Simon brings up Miranda rights in the book Homicide as a point when high level prosecution members were up in arms about never being able charge anyone ever again, and how interrogation would become useless, yet the detectives themselves, after a bit of moaning maybe, sort of just got on with it and continued to do their work. Rather then 'the death penalty is necessary', I think Simon's perspective is 'Homicide detectives are a smart, ruthless bunch, who will use absolutely every single tool to get a confession.' Also in American states that don't have it.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:49
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Skeesix posted:While we're talking about the Wire's non-liberal stances, I'm currently watching the HBO special on the Cheshire killings, where the perpetrators are portrayed as the "Poster Children for the Death Penalty." Let's talk about the Wire's supportive stance on the death penalty. The Wire portrays the Death Penalty as a wrench to obtain confessions from hardened killers who can't be reached any other way. Essentially, it portrays the death penalty as necessary. Weebay confesses to avoid the death penalty. Although much of what he confesses to is bullshit, he leads the police to information which makes the case. The entire port case is made off of Sergei trying to avoid the death penalty. Webay's confession wasn't beneficial for anything except police stats. He didn't implicate anyone, confessed to murders he didn't do and covered up the Barksdale connection on the rest. If anything it shows the danger of plea bargains. While there was a benefit to solve some unopened murders (saving further investigative efforts), it also let everybody else involved off the hook. Especially with the Baltimore police department, who will never reopen those cases once closed.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:55
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hhhmmm posted:Webay's confession wasn't beneficial for anything except police stats. He didn't implicate anyone, confessed to murders he didn't do and covered up the Barksdale connection on the rest. If anything it shows the danger of plea bargains. While there was a benefit to solve some unopened murders (saving further investigative efforts), it also let everybody else involved off the hook. Especially with the Baltimore police department, who will never reopen those cases once closed. Yeah Sergei and Chris are also threatened with the death penalty but it doesn't matter in either case. I would even dispute that it functions as a deterrent - soldiers like Bey, Chris and Sergei all know full well what they signed up for, that it will likely end with them going away for life or being killed, and basically all their confessions do is save the prosecutor the time and money involved in prosecuting them. As long as their families are taken of, they don't care (they either don't have faith in, or don't care for, witness protection). I always love Wee-Bey's completely nonchalant "Nah" line when they ask him to give up Avon and Stringer - he knows that all they care about is clearing the murders and they don't need either guy to do it. Only Sergei actually offers them something they don't know already (the Greek's location) and it doesn't even work. Interestingly enough, the death penalty was repealed in Maryland this May. According to Wikipedia, only 5 people had been executed there since 1961! (And only 5 are on death row right now; they're still going to be executed as the law only applies to future offenders). So I'd be interested in this same question for a state like Texas where it's practically a cult. For the record I'm anti-death penalty for the most part. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 23:15
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ScipioAfro posted:I think The Wire has too much affection for homicide police to suggest that the death penalty is necessary for their work. David Simon brings up Miranda rights in the book Homicide as a point when high level prosecution members were up in arms about never being able charge anyone ever again, and how interrogation would become useless, yet the detectives themselves, after a bit of moaning maybe, sort of just got on with it and continued to do their work. Rather then 'the death penalty is necessary', I think Simon's perspective is 'Homicide detectives are a smart, ruthless bunch, who will use absolutely every single tool to get a confession.' You actually see this in episodes of Law & Order from before and after they pass the death penalty (and after they repeal it again I think?).
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Aug 6, 2013 23:20
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awesmoe posted:I've spent like 15 minutes trying to write a reply because I just don't understand what you're saying. You think people don't actually desire the feeling they get from taking drugs? Not as a tool for self medication, but as a goal in and of itself? I'm proposing an adaptive model of addiction rather than an exposure model (giving someone addictive drug = addiction) or a virtue model (addictive character = addiction). Here's a paper that explains in more detail: http://www.360translations.com/educ533/empirical_and_theoretical_bases_.htm cletepurcel posted:Bubbs' story makes the pretty clear argument that for addicts to have a hope of recovery they have to hit absolute rock bottom first. This is what AA claims, but the Recidivism rates in AA are horrendous. If a treatment method can be said to be "giving up on people", it's AA. You basically save ten percent and condemn the rest to "not wanting it enough". gently caress that attitude.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:49
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the black husserl posted:Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. You can't "want" your way out of mental illness and the subsequent self medication. "Want" may not be the best term but it isn't just "the NA narrative." I have not read The Corner, I've only seen an episode or two a few years ago. You didn't answer saying you know any addicts so I'll guess not. What I am trying to get at is in more broad context than a book or a television series. I do know some addicts (some in Baltimore, no less!) and I'm sure many posters here know some, too. They are their own people with their own personalities, some of whom are not interested in getting clean, whatever their definition of getting clean is. See the other poster who chimed in with an addiction experience. Johnny isn't interested in getting clean. For now, he's content with his lifestyle and doesn't struggle with it like Bubbles does. Skeesix posted:While we're talking about the Wire's non-liberal stances, I'm currently watching the HBO special on the Cheshire killings, where the perpetrators are portrayed as the "Poster Children for the Death Penalty." Let's talk about the Wire's supportive stance on the death penalty. The Wire portrays the Death Penalty as a wrench to obtain confessions from hardened killers who can't be reached any other way. Essentially, it portrays the death penalty as necessary. Weebay confesses to avoid the death penalty. Although much of what he confesses to is bullshit, he leads the police to information which makes the case. The entire port case is made off of Sergei trying to avoid the death penalty. Continuing with non-liberal stances but not the death penalty, The Wire shows Hamsterdam, a solution (for better or worse) for the drug problem in Baltimore that was created by the people themselves. You've got the deacon who condemns Hamsterdam. It's surprising to even see Royce giving it some thought to allow its existence. The deacon represents Baltimore in a broader sense, you wouldn't see anyone being truly ok with it. At best, they'd just be glad that it was gone from their streets but not being ok with drugs. You've got some aid workers who come down to help the addicts and the idea proposed that they could set up clinics, job programs, whatever. But that's all going to be done by outsiders coming in. You can see this behavior repeated in many forms, people from outside coming in to not only help a community but to tell that community how they need to be helped. It isn't the people themselves doing these programs. Again, it goes back to college educated liberal white ideas. the black husserl posted:I'm proposing an adaptive model of addiction rather than an exposure model (giving someone addictive drug = addiction) or a virtue model (addictive character = addiction). You should grow past NA/AA and realize that that isn't just an NA/AA idea.
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Aug 7, 2013 00:24
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GreenCard78 posted:You should grow past NA/AA and realize that that isn't just an NA/AA idea. No I'm pretty sure "you must hit Rock Bottom* and have your Moment of Clarity before you can overcome your addiction" is exactly the narrative created by AA. They've done a very good job of making it seem like "common sense" and "the only option that works" but the evidence doesn't support that. Also, I would read the Corner, it rules. *Inherent in this philosophy is the idea that we shouldn't try to help addicts who are on their way down because it won't "work" unless they hit "bottom". What's the point of social programs or needle exchanges? You're just preventing addicts from reaching their bottom! This bootstrapping attitude is one reason why AA is so compatible with the capitalist system that the Wire details. God helps those who help themselves. the black husserl fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 00:56
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the black husserl posted:No I'm pretty sure "you must hit Rock Bottom* and have your Moment of Clarity before you can overcome your addiction" is exactly the narrative created by AA. I am curious, although we've gone quite a long way off topic by now - how do you propose rehabilitating addicts who have no wish to stop using?
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Aug 7, 2013 01:09
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awesmoe posted:I am curious, although we've gone quite a long way off topic by now - how do you propose rehabilitating addicts who have no wish to stop using?
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Aug 7, 2013 03:43
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SubponticatePoster posted:I think in those cases you move to harm reduction - clean needles, drugs that aren't cut with rat poison and other poo poo, and medical treatment for any problems that develop. Addiction is a continuum, not an either/or. It's possible to be addicted to something but still functional and not catching HIV or dying from sepsis helps with that. quote:Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean
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Aug 7, 2013 04:50
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I just finished watching this for the first time, the only thing I'm sure about is I've watched it way too quickly! I took in season one fairly slowly (episode or two a day) months and months back. this week I got the rest and burned them as fast as I could, even missing a night's sleep over it. What a show! One of my favourite moments in Rawl's fist-pump at believing he's dodged the responsibility for investigating the container full of dead girls. There's a moment of real glee and triumph you feel with him and the rest of the squad, despite it being unequivocally terrible that the deaths of these women won't be investigated. Least favourite thing: death of Bodie. It felt like a real cheap shot. Killing the guy in some epic, stand-fast and die hard shootout on a street corner just as he's about to flip to McNulty? He was a dedicated soldier so he was always gonna get shot or go to prison, but I guess they had to make his death super epic and dramatic because we'd followed him for so long. An action film end like that just seems so out-of-place. edit: watching some of the first season again and as much as McNulty is a drunken, philandering bag of poo poo much of the time, I love how when he goes to his kids soccer game with Bubbles in the car he doesn't hide him or tell Bubbles to hang back. This probably has a lot more to do with him being borderline sociopathic about other people's feelings and not even realising his ex would hate it, but drat if it isn't nice to see Bubbles getting treated like a regular human being. suburban virgin fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 11:51
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Bodie's death was perfectly plausible though and it's not like he was gunned down out of nowhere. He was killed precisely because the Stanfield organization thought he was going to flip.
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Aug 7, 2013 18:55
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awesmoe posted:No, the black husserl specifically said You should quote him completely if you're going to quote him. the black husserl posted:Actually I kinda hate the NA narrative that you have to "want" to get clean, I dont think drug addiction has anything to do with desire or willpower. I believe that drug use is the adaptive response of a human being who lives in poo poo conditions. The rich medicate their depression/anxiety with alcohol and pills, the poor medicate with crack and heroin. You can't "want" your way out of mental illness and the subsequent self medication. Which to me implies that maybe societal changes and approaches would be better, because then people wouldn't get addicted in the first place, never needing to "want" to get clean or "need" to hit rock bottom. Desire certainly factors into it, but treating it as the mental illness that it is, rather than a personal failing, would go a long way to helping those in need. Only an rear end would say someone who's depressed is so because they just don't "want" to be happy enough, and often times it does take someone monitoring them, making sure they go to therapy, and making sure they take the right medicine to help that person out. They certainly shouldn't have to wait until their first semi-successful suicide attempt before being offered said help. Of course, this would be a lot more effort than kicking them to the curb and ignoring them, or acting holier than thou, which is society's current approach.
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Aug 7, 2013 20:13
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