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What hot hatch do you own?
This poll is closed.
Golf GTI / R / R32 196 0.02%
Impreza WRX / STi 133 0.01%
Mazdaspeed 3 92 0.01%
Veloster Turbo 20 0.00%
Focus ST 149 0.01%
Other Hot Hatch 230 0.02%
Elantra GT 1000001 99.92%
Total: 1000821 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
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AvesPKS
Sep 26, 2004

I don't dance unless I'm totally wasted.
Thanks for the responses. I have actually driven a manual before (once, for about a mile), and am pretty confident in my ability to pick it up, because I'll have to, heh. My main concern is test driving, but yeah I can get a friend to come with who can can drive manual as well. Unfortunately I can't seem to track down anyone with a manual to learn, ah well.

My 'commute' is 16 miles round trip, and I only have to make that trip 3 days a week since I work from home the other 2, so I'm not too concerned about gas mileage or being in traffic.


Yes, I am also looking at the GTI (and the GLI); I haven't kept up with cars over the past few years so I've spent the last few days just pouring over videos and reviews.

I'm also slightly intrigued by the Fiesta ST but it doesn't seem like too many places have them yet.

Full disclosure, I've been driving a 2001 Windstar for the past 5 years, so almost anything is going to be an upgrade for me.

I'm going to test drive a Veloster Turbo either today or tomorrow since there's a Hyundai dealer about 5 miles away from me.

How are Hyundais buildwise and qualitywise nowadays?

AvesPKS fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Aug 8, 2013

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Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
The Velostar is cute and it's interesting; however, the Focus ST and MS3 are on a whole other level.

Ringo Star Get
Sep 18, 2006

JUST FUCKING TAKE OFF ALREADY, SHIT
Realized a few days ago in the ST when you have your front wipers on and you put the car in reverse, the rear wipers go on. Blew my mind at the things they think of.

If I want to keep the car under warranty, and I want to upgrade it, my choices are sticking to the official Ford store I assume? Or would my warranty just not cover the non-stock part?

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

Ringo Star Get posted:

Realized a few days ago in the ST when you have your front wipers on and you put the car in reverse, the rear wipers go on. Blew my mind at the things they think of.

On late-model hatchback Subarus (08+), the rear wiper actually speeds up when you put the car in reverse so your vision out the rear window is clearer. It's a cool feature that is obvious in retrospect.

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k

Ringo Star Get posted:

Realized a few days ago in the ST when you have your front wipers on and you put the car in reverse, the rear wipers go on. Blew my mind at the things they think of.


Another cool feature is ford apparently picked at random which ST's have vanity lighting and a telescoping sun shade. My fully loaded ST3 has neither but some peoples ST1/2/3 have both or just one of those features. Some with vanity lighting have 1 or 2 lights :v:

Ringo Star Get
Sep 18, 2006

JUST FUCKING TAKE OFF ALREADY, SHIT

Sepist posted:

Another cool feature is ford apparently picked at random which ST's have vanity lighting and a telescoping sun shade. My fully loaded ST3 has neither but some peoples ST1/2/3 have both or just one of those features. Some with vanity lighting have 1 or 2 lights :v:

My ST1 doesn't have telecoping sun shades, I wish it did because sometimes the sun peeks down in the gap.

Also noticed that Euro STs get a dead pedal while US ones get nothing. People are either resorting to getting a weathermate or buying after market, but I wish it was something that Ford US did from the start to match the pedals.

bobfather
Sep 20, 2001

I will analyze your nervous system for beer money

Ringo Star Get posted:

Realized a few days ago in the ST when you have your front wipers on and you put the car in reverse, the rear wipers go on. Blew my mind at the things they think of.

If I want to keep the car under warranty, and I want to upgrade it, my choices are sticking to the official Ford store I assume? Or would my warranty just not cover the non-stock part?

Ford has to prove that your aftermarket mod caused your problem. For intakes and ECU flashes, most people just revert back to stock before service to save themselves the headache.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:

AvesPKS posted:

Thanks for the responses. I have actually driven a manual before (once, for about a mile), and am pretty confident in my ability to pick it up, because I'll have to, heh. My main concern is test driving, but yeah I can get a friend to come with who can can drive manual as well. Unfortunately I can't seem to track down anyone with a manual to learn, ah well.

My 'commute' is 16 miles round trip, and I only have to make that trip 3 days a week since I work from home the other 2, so I'm not too concerned about gas mileage or being in traffic.


Yes, I am also looking at the GTI (and the GLI); I haven't kept up with cars over the past few years so I've spent the last few days just pouring over videos and reviews.

I'm also slightly intrigued by the Fiesta ST but it doesn't seem like too many places have them yet.

Full disclosure, I've been driving a 2001 Windstar for the past 5 years, so almost anything is going to be an upgrade for me.

I'm going to test drive a Veloster Turbo either today or tomorrow since there's a Hyundai dealer about 5 miles away from me.

How are Hyundais buildwise and qualitywise nowadays?

Hyundai's are on par with anything anyone else makes these days for build and quality. As Phone already said though, the Veloster turbo isn't the same thing as an ST or MS3, both of those are much harder and more 'serious' cars in the performance department in terms of raw power and ride stiffness and things like torque steer. I did the same thing you did about two months ago, and found that I liked the mix the GTI/GLI had, and so went with those instead (actually a Golf R but hey :v: ) instead of a Focus ST or Mazda Speed 3.
There is no escaping though that the Focus ST is one of the best bang for the buck hot hatch out right now. Looks good, performs well and best of all is inexpensive for the fun you get.
Best thing to do is to drive everything you are interested in and see what sticks with you. If you are used to a Windstar (I'm sorry) then everything is going to be amazing.

AvesPKS
Sep 26, 2004

I don't dance unless I'm totally wasted.

KakerMix posted:

Hyundai's are on par with anything anyone else makes these days for build and quality. As Phone already said though, the Veloster turbo isn't the same thing as an ST or MS3, both of those are much harder and more 'serious' cars in the performance department in terms of raw power and ride stiffness and things like torque steer. I did the same thing you did about two months ago, and found that I liked the mix the GTI/GLI had, and so went with those instead (actually a Golf R but hey :v: ) instead of a Focus ST or Mazda Speed 3.
There is no escaping though that the Focus ST is one of the best bang for the buck hot hatch out right now. Looks good, performs well and best of all is inexpensive for the fun you get.
Best thing to do is to drive everything you are interested in and see what sticks with you. If you are used to a Windstar (I'm sorry) then everything is going to be amazing.


Thanks for the response. My main criteria is price; I don't want to pay much more than $25k, which can lead to a disparate group of cars. I also don't want a truck or SUV, but would be open to a boring sedan as a fallback.

The Golf R's are gorgeous, I'm jealous, just a little more than I want to spend. Even used ones are going for 27-29k from my cursory searches.

Yeah, I've had the Windstar for about 5 years and maybe 35,000 miles, and it finally died. A few weeks ago it had this awful banging sound: it sounded like a small man inside my engine hitting it with a hammer to get out, which got me quite a few startled stares on the road. While my mechanic said he could replace the cracked manifold, he heard my engine trying to seize up. Transmission only has 50k miles on it though! Before that I drove a 99 Escort ZX2 and put 130,000 miles on it over 10 years (zero frills but it never had problems til the end), and before that an 87 Cutlass Ciera.

I've never had anything other than a regular radio/CD player in my car so it's interesting to see cars with way more extras at this price point.


I really like the GLI so far but I haven't actually sat in one yet. I like the GTI too and plan to test it as well, it just doesn't strike me as much as the GLI does.

I'm including the Veloster strictly for the form factor and price.

I think my biggest reservation about the ST/MS3 is I feel like I'm living vicariously through myself 10 years ago, as this is exactly the type of car I wanted back when I was 19/20. I passed a black Focus ST in the parking lot yesterday and stopped to admire it for about a minute, it's really sharp looking in person. Actually now that I'm looking for a car parking lots have become a lot more interesting to walk through. :)



Also, will an auto dealership take a personal check, or do I have to go get a cashier's check?

West SAAB Story posted:

Depends on how much its for, and how much they trust you to have that cash. ZX2 Bros. :v::respek::ohdear:

Makes sense. I've never stepped foot in a dealership before with the intent of buying a new car so this is all new to me. I've already got my loan set up (Navy Federal is awesome, took me about 15 minutes over the phone to be approved), so that plus cash is how I'll be paying for the car.

My ZX2 was a great little car that never gave me a lick of trouble until the end. Favorite moment: doing a 540 on I-70 in West Virginia in a driving blizzard, and then looking over my left shoulder to see a tractor trailer barrelling down on me.

AvesPKS fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 8, 2013

Viggen
Sep 10, 2010

by XyloJW

AvesPKS posted:

Also, will an auto dealership take a personal check, or do I have to go get a cashier's check?

Depends on how much its for, and how much they trust you to have that cash. ZX2 Bros. :v::respek::ohdear:

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
Even though this isn't the A/T recommend thread, I'm going to highly suggest you spend a few weekends checking out a lot of cars.

$25k gets you a lot of car new or used, here's my short list:

Ford Focus ST
Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
Subaru WRX
Fiat 500 Abarth

With the hot hatches out of the way...

Honda S2000 (used)
Mazda MX-5 (new/used)
Toyobaru FBR-SZ
Hyundai Genesis
Ford Mustang GT

The only two on the list that don't really rustle my jimmies are the Fiat and Hyundai, but every single car is a solid pick. All of them will blow the doors off of the Windstar, and some of the non-hatches might surprise you.

Gunshow Poophole
Sep 14, 2008

OMBUDSMAN
POSTERS LOCAL 42069




Clapping Larry

Phone posted:

good stuff

I'm in a similar boat to AvesPKS at this point, so I've been reading through this thread. My list is like 9 models long at this point. Kinda glad that there are more domestic sporty cars available in nice trims, I remember when I test drove my first car back in 2006, I couldn't find anything I liked that wasn't plastic and rattly as hell inside.

My uncle is like a 45 year Ford union man, is there a place to look online for employee plan pricing or do they keep it under wraps?

e: never mind that's pretty easy to google.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
I know with the Mustang GT, you can get a few thousand below sticker without too much hassle. Right now TrueCar is showing $27,132 for a 2014. It's not as nice as a German car, but the interior is definitely passable and the 5.0 goes in both the straights and corners.

You might have more trouble getting a smoking deal on a Focus St, though.

You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

Ringo Star Get posted:

Also noticed that Euro STs get a dead pedal while US ones get nothing. People are either resorting to getting a weathermate or buying after market, but I wish it was something that Ford US did from the start to match the pedals.
One reason for the lack of a dead pedal is to do with crash/safety tests. A lot of crash tests put a red mark against dead pedals as they can be unsafe in crashes (pushing the leg, especially the knee up into the dashboard if the firewall deforms). Which is sad because driving a car without a dead pedal can be so uncomfortable.

Drunken Lullabies
Aug 1, 2006

by Debbie Metallica

AvesPKS posted:

Thanks for the responses. I have actually driven a manual before (once, for about a mile), and am pretty confident in my ability to pick it up, because I'll have to, heh. My main concern is test driving, but yeah I can get a friend to come with who can can drive manual as well. Unfortunately I can't seem to track down anyone with a manual to learn, ah well.

Learn to drive stick on test drives. If you feel bad, do it at a used car lot. I learned this way telling every dealer "I don't know how to drive stick and I'm not interested in this car but I am buying a car right now" which was the truth and I never had a dealer bat an eye. I even had one insist I test drive a new m3 without a ridealong. I didn't and now I know where not to go for a new BMW =) however I did test drive a new 6 series and 135i and I feel bad for them now. If you have a conscience do it on used cars.

oRenj9
Aug 3, 2004

Who loves oRenj soda?!?
College Slice
Stalling out a dozen or so times isn't going to cause any kind of damage to a car. I always stress that to people when I teach them to drive a stick shift. Just keep the rpms below 3000 or so and you'll be fine.

Super Aggro Crag
Apr 23, 2008




And, of course as always, kill Hitler.


I learned how to drive a stick by buying a 5-speed a day before my 66 mile round trip job started. My buddy used to teach people stick on his 91 Sentra. That thing was almost impossible to stall out.

Ringo Star Get
Sep 18, 2006

JUST FUCKING TAKE OFF ALREADY, SHIT
Learned stick when I bought a '93 S-10 that my mom had to drive home from the guy because I didn't know how. Drove it around stalling it out but got the hang of it and fell in love; all the way to when the tranny stopped grabbing gears and there was a leg-sized hole in the bed.

I stopped driving that thing in 2005, and wasn't until the ST that I drove stick again, didn't miss a beat or stall it out since. The salesman was actually surprised I wanted a manual car, told me that automatics got better gas mileage and asked if the ST was for enjoyment or functionality. Idiot, why not both?

Drunken Lullabies
Aug 1, 2006

by Debbie Metallica

oRenj9 posted:

Stalling out a dozen or so times isn't going to cause any kind of damage to a car. I always stress that to people when I teach them to drive a stick shift. Just keep the rpms below 3000 or so and you'll be fine.

The clutch is what I'd be most worried about. Maybe the transmission too but I rarely see first timers grind a gear, that's usually something that happens when you're distracted rather than new to stick.

Blame Pyrrhus
May 6, 2003

Me reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Pillbug

Super Aggro Crag posted:

I learned how to drive a stick by buying a 5-speed a day before my 66 mile round trip job started. My buddy used to teach people stick on his 91 Sentra. That thing was almost impossible to stall out.

It's so strange that you say this, as I've always felt like early 90s Nissans had incredibly forgiving clutches.

Farking Bastage
Sep 22, 2007

Who dey think gonna beat dem Bengos!

InitialDave posted:

I'm never sure about test driving hot hatches. I mean, do you drive it sensibly and never get a feel for what the car's really like, or do you drive it like you actually would if you owned it, and come off looking like every other knuckle-dragging test pilot that comes in off the street?

The guy who eventually sold me my WRX mentioned how he's had to tell people to turn around and go back on test drives because they were trying to beat on it. I was in the bag as far as a buyer goes, but he watched the tach like a hawk the whole time. " Please try to keep it under 4k"

stickchat: My first real stick was a 94 S-10 with a 4.3 V6. It was pretty much impossible to stall and had so much low end torgue you could let it out idling up a hill and it just went. When I bought my WRX, I think I stalled it three times on the way home due to not being accustomed to having to give it a little gas.

blk
Dec 19, 2009
.
Some kid in a Focus ST wanted to race the Saabaru at a light today; I obliged and beat him by a larger margin than I expected (my car is stock). I wonder if the Focus would do better with AWD or if the weight penalty would negate any launch benefits.

bobfather
Sep 20, 2001

I will analyze your nervous system for beer money
AWD would certainly help, but then the base price of the car would be closer to 30k than 25k.

As always, the drag strips are the definitive way to settle what's faster.

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012

bobfather posted:

AWD would certainly help, but then the base price of the car would be closer to 30k than 25k.

As always, the drag strips are the definitive way to settle what's faster.

Besides of which a good driver in a less powerful car can always beat a crappy driver in a 'faster' car.

Bob A Feet
Aug 10, 2005
Dear diary, I got another erection today at work. SO embarrassing, but kinda hot. The CO asked me to fix up his dress uniform. I had stayed late at work to move his badges 1/8" to the left and pointed it out this morning. 1SG spanked me while the CO watched, once they caught it. Tomorrow I get to start all over again...

bobfather posted:

AWD would certainly help, but then the base price of the car would be closer to 30k than 25k.

As always, the drag strips are the definitive way to settle what's faster.

I think the AWD is rumored for the Focus RS. Would be awesome.

I don't like street racing people in my ST because I can't handle the torque steer and I'm afraid I'd end up in their lane :ohdear: (a half a length in front of them however)

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
If you're using a hot hatch for straight-line races, you're rather missing the point.

Bob A Feet
Aug 10, 2005
Dear diary, I got another erection today at work. SO embarrassing, but kinda hot. The CO asked me to fix up his dress uniform. I had stayed late at work to move his badges 1/8" to the left and pointed it out this morning. 1SG spanked me while the CO watched, once they caught it. Tomorrow I get to start all over again...

InitialDave posted:

If you're using a hot hatch for straight-line races, you're rather missing the point.

Hey man! You drive yours, I'll drive mine.

And I don't street race people.

Super Aggro Crag
Apr 23, 2008




And, of course as always, kill Hitler.


Bob A Feet posted:

I think the AWD is rumored for the Focus RS. Would be awesome.

I don't like street racing people in my ST because I can't handle the torque steer and I'm afraid I'd end up in their lane :ohdear: (a half a length in front of them however)

Slap on one of these babies and you should be good to go...

blk
Dec 19, 2009
.

InitialDave posted:

If you're using a hot hatch for straight-line races, you're rather missing the point.

You could say the same thing about taking one to a track. I think the point of hot hatches is to have fun fun - they're tarted up economy cars with inherent platform compromises marketed to people who want a spirited DD, not purpose built serious performance business.

And just in case there's any question, I think street racing is silly, but this was an isolated area with no traffic and the last time I did so was when I was 19, so I indulged.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

Bob A Feet posted:

Hey man! You drive yours, I'll drive mine.
Good answer.

blk posted:

You could say the same thing about taking one to a track. I think the point of hot hatches is to have fun fun
Yep, and thrust is fun - but it's not playing to the strengths of a hot hatch. They'll accelerate with more determination than an equivalent base car, but they're really meant for razzing around twisty stuff. Whether or not they can outdrag something isn't a particularly appropriate metric for deciding how good a hot hatch is.

blk posted:

they're tarted up economy cars with inherent platform compromises marketed to people who want a spirited DD, not purpose built serious performance business.
No more so than an M3 or similar. I've always argued that you should be able to get into the cooking model and find it similarly entertaining, albeit less focused and at lower speeds - the handling and balance should be inherent to the design, the hot version being what makes a good car great, rather than transforming the terrible into the half-decent.

Bob A Feet posted:

And I don't street race people.

blk posted:

And just in case there's any question, I think street racing is silly, but this was an isolated area with no traffic and the last time I did so was when I was 19, so I indulged.
If you're not being a knob about it, seeing if you can beat someone away from the lights or put some distance between you on a series of corners is pretty harmless. It's the kind of thing we all do a little bit now and then, always have done and always will do. Don't feel the need to pre-emptively defend yourself against people who'll take you to task for it, they're idiots and you should consider yourself free to ignore them.

This EVO video Harry Metcalfe did on the Clio Trophy does a good job of encapsulating what I like about hot hatches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

InitialDave posted:

This EVO video Harry Metcalfe did on the Clio Trophy does a good job of encapsulating what I like about hot hatches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60

Wow, what a special little car. Remote reservoir dampers, plastic fenders, custom-specification tires, partsbin stripper bits where they make sense. They put more thought into the implications of their headlight selection than certain other brands put into the whole package.

ltugo
Aug 10, 2004

If there was a grading scale for torture I would give sleep deprivation and waterboarding a C-.
Regarding the Chevy Sonic LT Turbo mentioned earlier . . . .

I own a 2012 Sonic Turbo. I bought mine just a few months after they came out and I've been driving it for about 18 months now, mostly on my 30-mile commute to work from Annapolis to DC. Here are my impressions:

Pros: Inexpensive (I got mine for 18.5k), fun to drive, very maneuverable, very practical, great gas mileage (37.5 mpg), cheap to maintain, much easier to drive manual than my last car (2004 WRX), kids love it.

Cons: Not that fast, especially coming from my last car. Dash can be a turnoff for some people. Chevy customer service can be somewhat lacking. Adults don't take it seriously.

Feel free to ask specific questions. The main reason I bought it is the experience I had with my last car. I always wanted to go crazy with the WRX, but because it was my daily driver I never had the nerve to modify it or take it to the track. It was also a money pit. So I traded it in for a commuter car and I used some spare cash to buy a 2000 Saab 9-5 Aero to fool around in. The Sonic is just fun enough to keep me entertained on my daily commute and I always have the Saab to look forward to on the weekends when I want to thrash it.

AvesPKS
Sep 26, 2004

I don't dance unless I'm totally wasted.
I drove a Veloster Turbo today. I'd been saying "Velos-ter" in my head but apparently it's supposed to be pronounced like velocity, except with an R on the end. The interior didn't feel cheap. Seats are comfortable, nice quality. The door handle was weird; it sticks out like a snow shovel handle. The push button start is really convenient. Side visibility was good, but the rear window is tiny. We went on some back road, and I didn't really get it above 40 because I didn't think the salesman's insistence that I "push it a little bit, lay into it, really see how it drives" meant going more than 10 over the limit. So he offers to take me out again and suddenly we're doing 70 on that same road, and then 90 in a 45 zone later. It is pretty quick. Salesman was really nice, no pressure whatsoever.

I told him I was looking at manuals and he kind of laughed and advised me not to, because they can be a pain to drive sometimes, but then he said he drives an S2000, and also went on to say that if I got the Veloster in manual it'd be faster too.

Bob A Feet
Aug 10, 2005
Dear diary, I got another erection today at work. SO embarrassing, but kinda hot. The CO asked me to fix up his dress uniform. I had stayed late at work to move his badges 1/8" to the left and pointed it out this morning. 1SG spanked me while the CO watched, once they caught it. Tomorrow I get to start all over again...

AvesPKS posted:

because they can be a pain to drive sometimes

I have the opposite opinion than him I guess : automatics (True autos/ not DSG's like VW's) will emphasize the bad things about small engines (especially 4 cylinders) which is mainly low torque. Most also have awful shifting decisions (ie they bump you down two gears on the highway with one touch of the accel button). Sometimes making them unenjoyable.

I'd say, unless you are missing a left foot or at the very least get a VW DSG, a manual is a must in a hot hatch because most are going to be lacking on the low down torque until you hit boost. Thats my experience at least. Plus its more fun when you want it to be and mindless when you don't care.

My $0.02

Bob A Feet fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Aug 13, 2013

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.
Eh I think VWs DSGs especially the seven speed are really overrated - they really don't capture the good parts of a manual or an auto.

sadnessboner
Feb 20, 2006
That was my thought after a few brisk test drives of DSG cars. They didn't give me the level of involvement I wanted when I was thrashing on the car; and it seemed confused by my inputs and sluggish to respond in slow moving traffic. I guess those extra cogs might cover torque or power deficiencies in non-hot hatchbacks though

sadnessboner fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Aug 13, 2013

DEUCE SLUICE
Feb 6, 2004

I dreamt I was an old dog, stuck in a honeypot. It was horrifying.
In Drive the DSG will short shift, take up the clutch slowly, and be generally lame and clunky. In Sport, it holds shifts until 6k unless you're really feathering it and downshifts aggressively with tons of engine braking.

If you're used to a manual trans and you're driving it in anger, put it in manual. It's maybe less "engaging" vs stirring it yourself but holy poo poo is it fast.

sim
Sep 24, 2003

Yeah in sport mode the DSG is the best auto transmission I've ever driven. I still missed a manual transmission though.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

Bob A Feet posted:

I have the opposite opinion than him I guess : automatics (True autos/ not DSG's like VW's) will emphasize the bad things about small engines (especially 4 cylinders) which is mainly low torque.
Agreed. I detested traditional autos until I had one with a V8 in front of it. With little engines, they're horrible. DSGs, on the other hand, seem to work nicely, at least the limited drives I've had of them.

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Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012

Seat Safety Switch posted:

Wow, what a special little car. Remote reservoir dampers, plastic fenders, custom-specification tires, partsbin stripper bits where they make sense. They put more thought into the implications of their headlight selection than certain other brands put into the whole package.

That video made me want to move to the UK ...

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