Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

Anticheese: Feb 13, 2008; $60,000,000 sexbot

Unormal posted:

Hey, look I found some screenshots of some new tile sets in a mysterious goon's possession.

It's still more adorable than any game involving stabbing things to death with a pitchfork has the right to be! :neckbeard:

Edit for content: You can't really go wrong with DoomRL for something that's pretty easy to pick up and put down. It even has pretty decent tiles now, if staring at the Matrix isn't your thing. I wish more roguelikes made use of sound, though.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 10:17

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 18:01

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Some years ago I played ChessRogue, which has an interesting twist on it. Every enemy moves and captures like a chess piece (or at least a made-up fairy chess piece), and if you capture enough enemy pieces of a certain type, you get more and more powers based on theirs.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 10:38

Protagorean: May 19, 2013; by Azathoth

So after giving up on ToME for the hundredth time because, after finally throwing in the towel and playing it with the lives system instead of the one life because the many straight-up bullshit reasons to die are innumerable and persistent unlocks are too few and far between, I went through something like five lives in one instance because every time I stepped out of cover I could expect to be gibbed by four or five lightning bolts, and the last straw was when the Sandworm Queen KO'd me twice without ever seeing her face.

Moving onto Dungeons of Dredmor, it took me a while to warm up to it, on account of there only being two sprites, everything is there for you at the word "go" and it's incredibly easy to gimp yourself from the start, the only way to rest is spam the gently caress out of your spacebar, and every time I've died, it's either because my initial character was like a baby with progeria (hope you didn't make a spellcaster-only!), or I pull a switch/step on a teleporter pad and suddenly I'm stuck in Thunderdome with multiple enemies, all of which are absurdly stronger than I am at that point. My latest and greatest character died, admittedly, to a stupid mistake on my part; I used Rocket Jump and forgot the loving thing takes a third of your health off every time you use it.

I'm having a hard time with Roguelikes, guys. :saddowns:

# ? Aug 8, 2013 12:33

Ashenai: Oct 5, 2005; You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Protagorean posted:

I'm having a hard time with Roguelikes, guys.

Try Crawl, it's tough but fair and based on your criticisms of the other games it might be right up your alley.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 12:50

doctorfrog: Mar 14, 2007; Great.

Anticheese posted:

It's still more adorable than any game involving stabbing things to death with a pitchfork has the right to be!

Edit for content: You can't really go wrong with DoomRL for something that's pretty easy to pick up and put down. It even has pretty decent tiles now, if staring at the Matrix isn't your thing. I wish more roguelikes made use of sound, though.

IIRC, Crawl has the ability to map just about any event to a sound, but last I checked no one bothered to.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:18

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

People who play DoomRL without the tiles are weird and wrong.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:23

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Agent Kool-Aid posted:

People who play DoomRL without the tiles are weird and wrong.

No way. DoomRL has the most readable and purposefully colorful tiles of any roguelike I've ever played. Every ASCII roguelike should learn from its example.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:24

Jack Trades: Nov 30, 2010

doctorfrog posted:

IIRC, Crawl has the ability to map just about any event to a sound, but last I checked no one bothered to.

I made a mini-soundpack back when I used to play it but I think I lost it now.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:28

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

My brain is never going to recognize/differentiate a some guy's vision of a goblin versus his vision of a kobold anywhere near as fast as a "g" versus a "K". I know this means I have to manually check monster equipment, but I can't ever switch to tiles.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:32

Nevz: Aug 13, 2009

Does anyone know of any games similar to Spelunky, binding of isaac, etc? Love games with random potential for OP items early on...

Also other than realm of the mad god, are there any multiplayer roguelikes?

# ? Aug 8, 2013 19:37

SpruceZeus: Aug 13, 2011

Try Rogue Legacy or Risk of Rain!

# ? Aug 8, 2013 20:02

BetterLekNextTime: Jul 22, 2008; It's all a matter of perspective...; Grimey Drawer

Nevz posted:

Also other than realm of the mad god, are there any multiplayer roguelikes?

There's a multiplayer Angband, MAngband or the variant PWMAngband.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 20:33

..btt: Mar 26, 2008

Hey OP, nice first posts, and I get that you don't like ASCII much, but how about listing some telnet/ssh servers for those that do and like to play online? Here's a few off the top of my head:

Crawl:
crawl.develz.org (EU)
crawl.akrasiac.org (US)

Nethack:
nethack.alt.org
slashem.crash-override.net (variant)
grunthack.org (variant)
un.nethack.nu (variant)

ADOM:
ancardia.us.to (US)
ancardia.uk.to (UK)

I'm sure pretty much any roguelike with an ASCII UI has a public server running somewhere, it's pretty nice being able to continue playing the same game from any internet connection - there are telnet/ssh clients for smartphones too. I use connectbot-pslib on android, since it supports unicode (which e.g. Crawl uses by default).

# ? Aug 8, 2013 20:38

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

..btt posted:

Hey OP, nice first posts, and I get that you don't like ASCII much, but how about listing some telnet/ssh servers for those that do and like to play online? Here's a few off the top of my head:

Crawl:
crawl.develz.org (EU)
crawl.akrasiac.org (US)
crawl.s-z.org (Pennsylvania, US)

Added s-z.org. Playing roguelikes on smartphones via ssh works quite well, try it out! There are some ui quirks(I only play melee in crawl, gently caress the spell ui on a phone.), but it is nice to play on the go.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 8, 2013

# ? Aug 8, 2013 20:40

100 HOGS AGREE: Oct 13, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Bongo Bill posted:

Some years ago I played ChessRogue, which has an interesting twist on it. Every enemy moves and captures like a chess piece (or at least a made-up fairy chess piece), and if you capture enough enemy pieces of a certain type, you get more and more powers based on theirs.

ChessRogue is really neat and I would love the concept to be expanded on somehow.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 21:19

RPATDO_LAMD: Mar 22, 2013; 🐘🪠🍆

Agent Kool-Aid posted:

People who play DoomRL without the tiles are weird and wrong.

The tiles are definitely very good, but I prefer ASCII just because I can see the whole map at once, without panning around everywhere. There are a few downsides to textmode, though: Half the time I can't make out the dark blue text (that's probably my problem, though), and the monochrome color scheme when berserk or invincible loses a lot of information. It's not that uncommon to take a swim in a river of acid or lava because you entered the level berserk and they look the same as water...

# ? Aug 8, 2013 22:53

Dross: Sep 26, 2006; Every night he puts his hot dogs in the trees so the pigeons can't get them.

RPATDO_LAMD posted:

The tiles are definitely very good, but I prefer ASCII just because I can see the whole map at once, without panning around everywhere.

You need a bigger monitor. For roguelikes.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:01

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

I've played a few roguelikes many times, primarily DCSS and Dungeons of Dredmore. I never get super far in these games though because the way I want to play - moving through things quickly - doesn't mesh with the slow, methodical play style the games require. I'd like a roguelike that I can complete in an hour or so. Any suggestions?

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:05

Bouchacha: Feb 7, 2006

Jon Joe posted:

I've played a few roguelikes many times, primarily DCSS and Dungeons of Dredmore. I never get super far in these games though because the way I want to play - moving through things quickly - doesn't mesh with the slow, methodical play style the games require. I'd like a roguelike that I can complete in an hour or so. Any suggestions?

DoomRL on the easiest difficulty. Really though, you're asking for essential a non-roguelike. Mindless playing doesn't jibe very well with the genre.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:10

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Bouchacha posted:

DoomRL on the easiest difficulty. Really though, you're asking for essential a non-roguelike. Mindless playing doesn't jibe very well with the genre.

Well I enjoy the roguelike-likes that can be completed relatively quickly, such as FTL and Binding of Isaac. I was just wondering if any roguelikes came close to this.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:12

doctorfrog: Mar 14, 2007; Great.

Spelunky, Transcendence? There's that music-based roguelike coming out, maybe that one can be played more thoughtlessly?

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:14

Pladdicus: Aug 13, 2010

Tryign to find an old roguelike I kind of enjoyed/hated. You started in a small room, it's action based, the world is randomly generated room with power ups, your primary attack is this charging bar that when you press, expends the bar and launches a circle attack out from your character destroying whatevers around. The goal is to take out these shrines I think? There's endings for clearing every room instead. Very coolish atmosphere.

Whenever I hear the name Transe- Meritous nevermind.

That game is pretty messed up.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:39

welcome: Jun 28, 2002; rail slut

Jon Joe posted:

I've played a few roguelikes many times, primarily DCSS and Dungeons of Dredmore. I never get super far in these games though because the way I want to play - moving through things quickly - doesn't mesh with the slow, methodical play style the games require. I'd like a roguelike that I can complete in an hour or so. Any suggestions?

In an hour you could play through Desktop Dungeons like, ten times.

# ? Aug 8, 2013 23:48

coolskull: Nov 11, 2007

Jon Joe posted:

I've played a few roguelikes many times, primarily DCSS and Dungeons of Dredmore. I never get super far in these games though because the way I want to play - moving through things quickly - doesn't mesh with the slow, methodical play style the games require. I'd like a roguelike that I can complete in an hour or so. Any suggestions?

Though people argue it isn't really a roguelike, Cardinal Quest fits the bill.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 01:59

victrix: Oct 30, 2007

Good thread, great OP.

I'd suggest adding a post filled with generic survival advice that applies to roguelikes in general - permadeath can be a hard concept to swallow without something like Rogue Legacy's system in place.

Some quick examples:

You are always one step away from death.
Running away is almost always an option. Often it is the right option.
These are not jrpgs. These aren't even wrpgs. Don't conserve your drat items for a theoretical tough fight in the future or you won't survive the tough fight in the present. Use your scrolls, your potions, your wands. Use them.
This isn't a race. Stop and think. Examine your inventory. Examine the terrain. If a situation looks like it could be dangerous, it is dangerous. Take as much time as you need to puzzle through any encounter.
Take a break. Completing the harder roguelikes requires focused attention for a long period of time. Don't lose a promising character to fatigue!
In most (though not all) roguelikes, melee combat is a Bad Idea, especially early in the game. Use bows, thrown weapons, magic, traps, or whatever other dastardly options you have at your disposal before you play the @@ humping simulation game.
If you run into a difficult situation or you're unsure how to proceed, ask for help online. Roguelikes are excellent collaborative games, and if you've ever played Demon's/Dark Souls, you should know the value of good advice. Spoilers are nice, but specific advice for your specific situation can help you learn more than a generic info dump.
The journey, not the destination. In most tough roguelikes, you're going to die. A lot. This can be really painful the first few times if you're used to the autosaving, quickloading, 50 save file school of rpg gameplay. Shift your thinking. Try to learn something new each game, and try something new each game (the latter will get you killed, apologies in advance). It's best to think that you are improving your own personal experience, not that of your character! Very good players have very high win rates on even tough roguelikes, and this is not because of random chance.
When you die, figure out why you died. It's usually your fault. It's probably your fault. It's your fault. Learn from your deaths.
You might feel like you were screwed the RNG, but its much more likely that your actions lead to a situation that killed you, even if your moment to moment tactical choices were sound. Mid and long term strategy is often just as important as tactics.
The correct or optimal playstyle for any given roguelike can vary significantly. Experiment with different games! I find some roguelikes to be boring, frustrating, or both, simply because very effective tactics in them run counter to how I personally enjoy playing. By the same token, experiment with different characters and builds - good roguelikes allow a variety of successful approaches.
Burn a character occasionally testing out a radically different play style. Dive deeply, quickly. Drink everything, zap everything, read everything. Run away from everything. Taken to extremes, reckless play is usually a swift trip to the grave, but playing in an atypical manner can teach you some very useful tricks you might not have learned otherwise. Conservative play is typically the safest path to victory, but not always.
You are always one step away from death.

edit: I forgot 'Roguelikes is the worst genre name in history', but I guess that's not a tip :<

victrix fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Aug 9, 2013

# ? Aug 9, 2013 02:27

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

BKPR posted:

Though people argue it isn't really a roguelike, Cardinal Quest fits the bill.

What? Those people are crazy. Cardinal Quest isn't just a roguelike, its a good (though also easy) roguelike. It's maybe the best mobile roguelike (I don't have iOS, dunno about 100 rogues, and am not counting Powder).

Anyway you can play most roguelikes with a very aggressive style if you like. Especially if you pick an easier combo, games like Crawl can essentially be tabbed though. You can't quite win in an hour, but you can get pretty close. Try playing a traditional roguelike with the mindset of "dive, dive, dive" and you'll find a totally different play experience.

I really like the tips idea. I'll try to figure a way to incorporate it into the OP.

I also want to do a bit on bots. I think to avoid bloat in the OP (it's gonna get bad with all the games) I'll just have a bit where I link to other posts for more detailed info. On the note of bots, anyone know of games that have had bots developed for them other than Angband and Crawl?

# ? Aug 9, 2013 02:41

Potsticker: Jan 14, 2006

victrix posted:

edit: I forgot 'Roguelikes is the worst genre name in history', but I guess that's not a tip :<

Shmups.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 02:42

victrix: Oct 30, 2007

Potsticker posted:

Shmups.

Ok fair point. But that's only because shooters usurped their proper title :colbert:

# ? Aug 9, 2013 02:44

Contra Duck: Nov 4, 2004; #1 DAD

Jordan7hm posted:

What? Those people are crazy. Cardinal Quest isn't just a roguelike, its a good (though also easy) roguelike. It's maybe the best mobile roguelike (I don't have iOS, dunno about 100 rogues, and am not counting Powder).

Anyway you can play most roguelikes with a very aggressive style if you like. Especially if you pick an easier combo, games like Crawl can essentially be tabbed though. You can't quite win in an hour, but you can get pretty close. Try playing a traditional roguelike with the mindset of "dive, dive, dive" and you'll find a totally different play experience.

I really like the tips idea. I'll try to figure a way to incorporate it into the OP.

I also want to do a bit on bots. I think to avoid bloat in the OP (it's gonna get bad with all the games) I'll just have a bit where I link to other posts for more detailed info. On the note of bots, anyone know of games that have had bots developed for them other than Angband and Crawl?

Yeah, diving is possible in a lot of traditional roguelikes but it requires a very well developed sense of when a situation is going to get ugly so it's pretty difficult for anyone who hasn't previously won to pull it off. It's great fun once you do know what you're doing though!

Also there's a few nethack bots out there, TAEB (http://taeb.github.io/) is the main one I know of. Apparently its back under active development too (imagine I made a joke about 'nethack' and 'active development' here).

# ? Aug 9, 2013 03:01

Reginald Bathwater: Dec 19, 2009; MINE EYES CAN BUT WEEP AS THEY BEAR WITNESS TO THE MAJESTY... THE BFG 9000!

Obviously Roguelikes needs to be replaced with a painfully contrived acronym like Risk-based Organically Generated User Experience

# ? Aug 9, 2013 03:15

quiggy: Aug 7, 2010; [in Russian] Oof.

Singleplayer Offline Dungeon Arena

# ? Aug 9, 2013 03:17

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

quiggy posted:

Singleplayer Offline Dungeon Arena

What if you can play it online too? :ohdear:

# ? Aug 9, 2013 03:22

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

victrix posted:

Good thread, great OP.

I'd suggest adding a post filled with generic survival advice that applies to roguelikes in general - permadeath can be a hard concept to swallow without something like Rogue Legacy's system in place.

Some quick examples:

You are always one step away from death.

Running away is almost always an option. Often it is the right option.

These are not jrpgs. These aren't even wrpgs. Don't conserve your drat items for a theoretical tough fight in the future or you won't survive the tough fight in the present. Use your scrolls, your potions, your wands. Use them.

This isn't a race. Stop and think. Examine your inventory. Examine the terrain. If a situation looks like it could be dangerous, it is dangerous. Take as much time as you need to puzzle through any encounter.

Take a break. Completing the harder roguelikes requires focused attention for a long period of time. Don't lose a promising character to fatigue!

In most (though not all) roguelikes, melee combat is a Bad Idea, especially early in the game. Use bows, thrown weapons, magic, traps, or whatever other dastardly options you have at your disposal before you play the @@ humping simulation game.

If you run into a difficult situation or you're unsure how to proceed, ask for help online. Roguelikes are excellent collaborative games, and if you've ever played Demon's/Dark Souls, you should know the value of good advice. Spoilers are nice, but specific advice for your specific situation can help you learn more than a generic info dump.

The journey, not the destination. In most tough roguelikes, you're going to die. A lot. This can be really painful the first few times if you're used to the autosaving, quickloading, 50 save file school of rpg gameplay. Shift your thinking. Try to learn something new each game, and try something new each game (the latter will get you killed, apologies in advance). It's best to think that you are improving your own personal experience, not that of your character! Very good players have very high win rates on even tough roguelikes, and this is not because of random chance.

When you die, figure out why you died. It's usually your fault. It's probably your fault. It's your fault. Learn from your deaths.

You might feel like you were screwed the RNG, but its much more likely that your actions lead to a situation that killed you, even if your moment to moment tactical choices were sound. Mid and long term strategy is often just as important as tactics.

The correct or optimal playstyle for any given roguelike can vary significantly. Experiment with different games! I find some roguelikes to be boring, frustrating, or both, simply because very effective tactics in them run counter to how I personally enjoy playing. By the same token, experiment with different characters and builds - good roguelikes allow a variety of successful approaches.

Burn a character occasionally testing out a radically different play style. Dive deeply, quickly. Drink everything, zap everything, read everything. Run away from everything. Taken to extremes, reckless play is usually a swift trip to the grave, but playing in an atypical manner can teach you some very useful tricks you might not have learned otherwise. Conservative play is typically the safest path to victory, but not always.

You are always one step away from death.

edit: I forgot 'Roguelikes is the worst genre name in history', but I guess that's not a tip :<

I'd put "play the odds and/or always take the sure thing" to that too. I've died quite a few times in these games when I've taken a route that should work instead of a route that always works (i.e. trying to clear one more easy room before going to a merchant for healing, and somehow dying there)

# ? Aug 9, 2013 03:23

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

Anything is better than the term MOBA, which is quite possibly one of the most loving generic and non-descriptive terms ever made for something in existence.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 04:21

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

C-Euro posted:

I'd put "play the odds and/or always take the sure thing" to that too. I've died quite a few times in these games when I've taken a route that should work instead of a route that always works (i.e. trying to clear one more easy room before going to a merchant for healing, and somehow dying there)

The # 1 rule is probably "If something works 99% of the time, but kills you 1% of the time, doing it all the time means you'll never win a roguelike."

# ? Aug 9, 2013 04:28

doctorfrog: Mar 14, 2007; Great.

Potsticker posted:

Shmups.

MOBAs.

e:f,b

# ? Aug 9, 2013 04:49

Wolfechu: May 2, 2009; All the world's a stage I'm going through

Spelunky HD appears to have arrived on Steam today.

Now, you can argue this isn't a true roguelike, or you can go and play it, because it's awesome.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 06:55

Potsticker: Jan 14, 2006

victrix posted:

Ok fair point. But that's only because shooters usurped their proper title

They had their own genre name too. It was "First Person Shooters" :argh:

Agent Kool-Aid posted:

Anything is better than the term MOBA, which is quite possibly one of the most loving generic and non-descriptive terms ever made for something in existence.

MOBA is really bad too. Certainly worse than roguelike.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 07:41

colonp: Apr 21, 2007; Hi!

...

colonp fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 8, 2014

# ? Aug 9, 2013 07:54

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 18:01

doctorfrog: Mar 14, 2007; Great.

That reminds me, Fuel was a 7DRL that was pretty quick, simple, and intriguing. It won't last you more than a week, if that, but it's a good, tight game.

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Fuel

It doesn't really belong in the OP, but it was kinda fun.

# ? Aug 9, 2013 08:11

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