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Tarquin put this into motion before leaving the city.
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Aug 13, 2013 01:29
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Tenebrais posted:Tarquin is not riding out to meet Xykon's army, because that would be incredibly anticlimactic after this pretty badass revelation. I'd say he's either trying to take Girard's rift or (less likely) he's making his move for Kraagor's gate. WE know that Xykon's army isn't leaving Gobbotopia. But Tarquin DOESN'T KNOW THAT. Therefore he brought his army because he expected the following things to happen: 1) Nale and Malack would seize the Gate. That's implicit in how he left them. He's pretty sure they'll win against a decimated Order. 2) Then, with the Gate stolen from the Order, he'd use his newly arrived army to secure it against the army of hobgoblins he has reason to believe is coming. It also acts as insurance in case of... 3) ...the possibility that the Order managed to have some kind of miracle come from behind win. Even if they did, the overwhelming force he's bringing would be more than enough to overwhelm the weakened Order and grab the Gate for his team, at which point he's back to the competion of 2) above. Then... 4) ...with the gate under his control, he can negotiate with Xykon when he arrives from a position of strength. "You cut us into the deal and we'll help you use the Snarl. If you don't, you can fight us for it, but we WILL blow the Gate before you get to it. Let's make a deal!" Naturally, we now know that none of that is going to happen. Malack's dead, the Gate's blown, and Xykon has come and gone. Tarquin's army is rendered moot except in that he CAN use it to try to capture the battered Order and pry the location of the final Gate out of them.
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Aug 13, 2013 01:30
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jng2058 posted:Naturally, we now know that none of that is going to happen. Malack's dead, the Gate's blown, and Xykon has come and gone. Tarquin's army is rendered moot except in that he CAN use it to try to capture the battered Order and pry the location of the final Gate out of them. Why use his army for that when he's already shown much more effective methods for finding out where a gate is? No, Rich isn't showing off this big army, with Tarquin's gang back together, just to have him realise he doesn't need it to be there and put the whole thing in reverse. On a different note, I hope we see a bit more of his other accomplices. I wonder if they're all as close as Tarquin and Malack were.
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Aug 13, 2013 01:44
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He's also not showing this big army as a combat encounter for the Order.
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Aug 13, 2013 02:48
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I just noticed Mr. Scruffy hissing at Durkon in panel 4. 
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Aug 13, 2013 03:19
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I'm surprised that Haley and Elan seem to have no problem with Durkula but Belkar rightly points out that the cleric they have now isn't the Durkon they once knew.
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Aug 13, 2013 03:35
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Who What Now posted:I'm surprised that Haley and Elan seem to have no problem with Durkula but Belkar rightly points out that the cleric they have now isn't the Durkon they once knew. Belkar was present for Malack's "if you res me I'll be a completely different person" speech.
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Aug 13, 2013 03:39
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Malack was meaning that his present self was a lot different than what he was 200 years ago; Durkula, on the other hand, hasn't been as such for even a day, so any culture shock and whatnot would be minimal if he was relatively promptly brought back.
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Aug 13, 2013 03:45
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Still, he had a quite explicit alignment shift, and I doubt that he'd take kindly to being resurrected by Roy. It just seems like too easy of an out, on top of Malack's speech potentially serving as a Chekhov's gun. Aren't they returning to Durkon's homeland? Like, the homeland of the Thor priesthood? Wouldn't there be a high-level cleric there willing to resurrect Durkon? And if he reacts badly to it... that could be the impetus for the death-and-destruction that he'll bring.
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Aug 13, 2013 04:05
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Regalingualius posted:Malack was meaning that his present self was a lot different than what he was 200 years ago; Durkula, on the other hand, hasn't been as such for even a day, so any culture shock and whatnot would be minimal if he was relatively promptly brought back. Yeah. If you practice being good for 200 years, that experience adds up to make you a completely different person then when you practice evil for 200 years. It's the difference between being a priest on a world-saving quest and lizard-hitler. I think that Durkon's dark side will be explored more as the comic progresses, and grow darker the more time he spends as a vampire.
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Aug 13, 2013 04:07
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It's actually a pretty neat ethical question. If you asked him, Durkula would say he prefers the way he is now, and would not want to be restored to his previous state. His memories of how he was are completely intact and he's a perfectly sane adult. Are you within your rights to detain him and resurrect him by force and against his stated wishes? And if so, would you consider it just to go around forcing alignment shifts on every Evil person? What about those who are Neutral? If not, why not? What makes this case different?
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Aug 13, 2013 04:19
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Who What Now posted:I'm surprised that Haley and Elan seem to have no problem with Durkula but Belkar rightly points out that the cleric they have now isn't the Durkon they once knew. Haley and Elan are optimistic and they love Durkon. They don't want Durkon to be dead and gone. Until they see him do evil stuff, it's just Durkon with minor art changes. Normally Belkar might not give a gently caress, he certainly didn't mind V's dip into the deep end of the alignment pool. Belkar only cares because a little while ago Durkon was trying to eat him. Once he gets healed up he won't mind so much. If he gets to see stodgy old Durkon do evil things to other people he might even like it.
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Aug 13, 2013 04:21
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Belkar also hadn't gone through several major character growth moments when V was over on the dark side, remember? He was still in the "faking it" phase. Since then he's slowly stopped faking the character growth and having actual character growth.
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Aug 13, 2013 04:24
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I think he'd still get a giggle if Durkon ate a kobold. Belkar is no paladin.
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Aug 13, 2013 04:34
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CapnAndy posted:It's actually a pretty neat ethical question. If you asked him, Durkula would say he prefers the way he is now, and would not want to be restored to his previous state. His memories of how he was are completely intact and he's a perfectly sane adult. Are you within your rights to detain him and resurrect him by force and against his stated wishes? And if so, would you consider it just to go around forcing alignment shifts on every Evil person? What about those who are Neutral? If not, why not? What makes this case different? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
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Aug 13, 2013 04:50
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CapnAndy posted:It's actually a pretty neat ethical question. If you asked him, Durkula would say he prefers the way he is now, and would not want to be restored to his previous state. His memories of how he was are completely intact and he's a perfectly sane adult. Are you within your rights to detain him and resurrect him by force and against his stated wishes? And if so, would you consider it just to go around forcing alignment shifts on every Evil person? What about those who are Neutral? If not, why not? What makes this case different? You assume, of course, that being evil is a perfectly sane thing to be - it's not entirely unfair to compare it to mental sickness. Some people take medication for their personality disorders, others wear special alignment-flipping headgear. If that argument doesn't work for you, you could say that being made evil via being transformed into a vampire is a form of brainwashing, and undoing brainwashing is always acceptable even if the person in question believes (at the time) that they're better that way. Really there's nothing sane about Durkon's state of mind right now, mentally or morally. He's just lucid and able to make rational decisions.
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Aug 13, 2013 05:33
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Dolash posted:You assume, of course, that being evil is a perfectly sane thing to be - it's not entirely unfair to compare it to mental sickness. Some people take medication for their personality disorders, others wear special alignment-flipping headgear. You'll find much more traction with the second argument than the first, I think.
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Aug 13, 2013 05:46
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Dolash posted:You assume, of course, that being evil is a perfectly sane thing to be - it's not entirely unfair to compare it to mental sickness. Some people take medication for their personality disorders, others wear special alignment-flipping headgear. In the OOTSverse, being evil is a perfectly sane thing to be. Goblins are evil by default, as are chromatic dragons. A green dragon that was Lawful Good would rightly be considered insane or cursed by other green dragons.
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Aug 13, 2013 12:44
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In the DnD world Souls are Things, Alignments are Things, magic that can mess with both are Things. The answers to moral questions change when the very fabric of reality that people people we are talking about is fundamentally different to what we are used to. I mean this is a 'nature/nurture' debate where in the OotS world 'Nature' is clearly a powerful and determinative thing in a way that it simply isn't in the real world. Durkon's nature has been changed. Yeah, whatever, you can change it back from Evil to Good because axiomatically that will increase the amount of Good in the OotS world. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Aug 13, 2013 |
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Aug 13, 2013 13:12
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Dolash posted:You assume, of course, that being evil is a perfectly sane thing to be - it's not entirely unfair to compare it to mental sickness. Some people take medication for their personality disorders, others wear special alignment-flipping headgear. The same could be said for our lawful good
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Aug 13, 2013 16:46
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Haley's delighted face as she loots the wands off of Zz just kills me. Does she Use Magic Device?
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Aug 14, 2013 00:16
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D1Sergo posted:Haley's delighted face as she loots the wands off of Zz just kills me. Does she Use Magic Device? She's high enough level she'd be a fool to not have taken some ranks.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:22
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greatn posted:She's high enough level she'd be a fool to not have taken some ranks. And the only other PC who would care to dibs the wands isn't around - so Haley gets all the wands, instead of having to split them. Actually, shouldn't they be pretty worried about V at this point? I can buy them not worrying before, since V is competent enough to survive a trap or two, a round of combat with the Linear Guild, or any other plausible hazard in the pyramid. But I'm not sure that V could survive the complete destruction OF the pyramid, especially with no idea that it's even about to happen. (Obviously V is protected by the energy bubble, and for that matter knew that the pyramid was about to blow. So zhe's fine. But Roy couldn't have known any of that when he blew the Gate, and none of the party knows that now.) Edit: Or hell, Roy's entire thesis ("It's fine if one party member gets separated, we're all competent adventurers who can do fine on our own") was just very badly disproven. The evidence is walking around, right in front of the whole party, pretending to be their friend - this should maybe be provoking some worry about the other missing PC. I know it's only been a few very eventful minutes since the explosion, at most. But I would expect Elan or Haley, at least, to be concerned. Ponsonby Britt fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 00:51
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D1Sergo posted:Haley's delighted face as she loots the wands off of Zz just kills me. Does she Use Magic Device? I can't remember it ever coming up, but if nothing else they'll sell for a pile of gold.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:54
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Edit: Or hell, Roy's entire thesis ("It's fine if one party member gets separated, we're all competent adventurers who can do fine on our own") was just very badly disproven. The evidence is walking around, right in front of the whole party, pretending to be their friend - this should maybe be provoking some worry about the other missing PC. I know it's only been a few very eventful minutes since the explosion, at most. But I would expect Elan or Haley, at least, to be concerned.
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Aug 14, 2013 01:24
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Ponsonby Britt posted:And the only other PC who would care to dibs the wands isn't around - so Haley gets all the wands, instead of having to split them.
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Aug 14, 2013 02:00
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PFlats posted:Why wouldn't Elan want them? Just his personality? I would guess that he probably doesn't know or remmeber that he can use wands. He needs to be extensively coached just to use his own magic illusions.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:22
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How do wands work compared to staves, anyway? Also if one of them (unlikely, but I just want to learn the mechanics) had say Great Teleport, would V be able to cast it? If so, what determines it - his spell level, spellcraft, use magic device?
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Aug 14, 2013 07:58
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mmkay posted:How do wands work compared to staves, anyway? A wand has one spell it can cast, where a staff has a short list of spells it can cast. Both have charges, but for staves the bigger spells cost more than one charge. Staves can hold higher level spells than wands, and a caster can use their own level when casting out of a staff where wands have a fixed caster level.
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Aug 14, 2013 08:06
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Usually all you need to cast a spell from a wand is have the spell in it on your class spell list. If you don't, that's where Use Magic Device comes in. However, if the spell is from a barred school wizards can't even cast it from scrolls or wands.
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Aug 14, 2013 08:07
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What I think was interesting in this is that I suspect part of Belkar's objection is that he actually cares about Durkon as a person. It's not just that he hates the vampire, he's the person in the order who best knows that isn't really Durkon and wants the real one back. That's some pretty big character development right there.
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Aug 14, 2013 08:45
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That, plus actual feelings of guilt for being indirectly responsible for what happened to Durkon, whereas before I'd think he'd have to be cajoled by Roy or Haley just to make a lipservice of an apology.
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Aug 14, 2013 08:58
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Colonel Cool posted:What I think was interesting in this is that I suspect part of Belkar's objection is that he actually cares about Durkon as a person. It's not just that he hates the vampire, he's the person in the order who best knows that isn't really Durkon and wants the real one back. All I have to say is "yup." I'm really excited to see where the Belkar/Durkula dynamic goes from here. Belkar's moral alignment may be new, but its development is based on real, concrete developments that are all about to be challenged. I continue to be utterly impressed by Burlew.
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Aug 14, 2013 11:59
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Continuing to predict that Durkon will be the one to kill off Belkar. It will be tragic. 
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Aug 14, 2013 12:01
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Is there a way for Malack's vampire self to be resurrected without rather than bringing back the living Malack like Durkon suggested a while ago? It seems hard to believe that a bunch of smart high-level adventurers like Tarquin's crew don't have some kind of contingencies in place in case one of them gets killed.
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Aug 14, 2013 13:04
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Resurrect Undead sounds exactly like the kind of spell Malack himself would research, but it would probably be at least eighth or ninth level and he wouldn't be powerful enough to cast it, indeed no cleric we've ever seen in the comic would. No such book spell exists.
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Aug 14, 2013 13:08
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greatn posted:Resurrect Undead sounds exactly like the kind of spell Malack himself would research, but it would probably be at least eighth or ninth level and he wouldn't be powerful enough to cast it, indeed no cleric we've ever seen in the comic would. No such book spell exists. Redcloak threw down a ninth level spell already. That doesn't count though. Considering the ritual was on a stone tablet, I'm guessing he'll be epic by the final showdown.
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Aug 14, 2013 13:18
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Ah yes, excluding end bosses
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Aug 14, 2013 13:19
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greatn posted:Resurrect Undead sounds exactly like the kind of spell Malack himself would research, but it would probably be at least eighth or ninth level and he wouldn't be powerful enough to cast it, indeed no cleric we've ever seen in the comic would. No such book spell exists. The DM would have to be pretty lenient to allow it, though, it really doesn't fit into the system of the world. Resurrecting people works because you can draw their soul back, but the rules state that Malack's vampire self is totally and utterly obliterated. There's nothing to pull back into existence.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:53
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The spell Tarkin's caster friend used was probably either Gate or Teleportation Circle, both of which are 9th level wizard spells. And there's still Miron, Tarkin's friend with the scarf covering his face, who might be a caster as well. Tarkin still has some powerful friends in the wings.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:57
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