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I never noticed the box cutter in that scene before. It all happened so fast, I assumed she just pulled out an earring or something.
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Aug 19, 2013 00:54
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Speaking of odd foreshadowing, it was weirdly obvious that Michael was going to join Marlo's gang after their confrontation about the money. Very much a "we'll be keeping an eye on your career" moment.
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Aug 19, 2013 01:29
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Ainsley McTree posted:I never noticed the box cutter in that scene before. It all happened so fast, I assumed she just pulled out an earring or something. She spends some time holding onto it and glaring at Chiquan, so the sad thing is that it obviously wasn't a spur of the moment thing, she was building up her rage to actually do it. Now she'll have to enter the juvenile system where they'll have to balance her premeditated actions against the fact that she is probably too young to really understand the consequences of her actions. It's a hosed up situation all around. It's really depressing in the next episode (I think) where Prez is reassured he doesn't need to be concerned because they checked Chiquan's blood and she doesn't have aids! They don't seem to even consider that Prez might be upset FOR the girls, and just that he's concerned for his own health.
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Aug 19, 2013 01:54
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The point is AIDS didn't even cross his mind. Its not about the educators being callous. Its about him not understanding the depth of the problems. It doesn't even make sense for him to worry about his own health he didn't get anywhere near the blood or anything. Everyone involved is concerned for the children's health, but he doesn't even know the real risk.
Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Aug 19, 2013 |
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Aug 19, 2013 02:27
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Bundt Cake posted:The point is AIDS didn't even cross his mind. Its not about the educators being callous. Its about him not understanding the depth of the problems. It doesn't even make sense for him to worry about his own health he didn't get anywhere near the blood or anything. Everyone involved is concerned for the children's health, but he doesn't even know the real risk. I hadn't considered it from that point of view, but you're right - Prez was extremely naive about the depth of the problems in the school even though he'd spent years as police, including 2-3 years with inside access to the everyday world of the drug trade.
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Aug 19, 2013 03:03
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Jerusalem posted:I hadn't considered it from that point of view, but you're right - Prez was extremely naive about the depth of the problems in the school even though he'd spent years as police, including 2-3 years with inside access to the everyday world of the drug trade. Or he didn't want to believe the corner had so thoroughly invaded the schools. Willful ignorance can be just as powerful.
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Aug 19, 2013 06:18
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I don't entirely understand how much we're free to talk about the show's later years here, but Prez's transformation as a teacher might be my favorite character evolution in the whole show. The ways in which he goes from blusterous fuckup to a codebreaker to the guy who recreates the MCU to take on Sobotka to his desperation shooting of the officer to naive do-gooder teacher to THE BEARD - man, talk about earning your character moments. I'm coincidentally rewatching the show for the first time, about to finish the fourth season. And I'm curious to see how I handle the transition from season four to five. Its the only time where, on my first watch, I really felt cheated at the time jumps. Particularly with McNulty's character.
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Aug 19, 2013 09:33
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pokeyman posted:Or he didn't want to believe the corner had so thoroughly invaded the schools. Willful ignorance can be just as powerful. Which also plays in nicely to Parenti thinking he could work with 18-21 year olds, then lowering that to slightly younger, to being told that he probably wants to go even younger if he wants even the smallest chance of having any impact on these kids before the corners and the system completely rip them up. Narcissus1916 posted:I don't entirely understand how much we're free to talk about the show's later years here escape artist set it to be a completely spoiler-friendly zone - absolutely anything and everything that happens in the show is completely open to discussion. Rewatching it for the first time DOES feel like watching the show for the first time though, since you pick up so much you missed or didn't understand the significance of.
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Aug 19, 2013 10:50
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http://www.avclub.com/articles/a-robot-is-making-random-gifs-of-the-wire,101642/
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Aug 19, 2013 15:41
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Jerusalem posted:She spends some time holding onto it and glaring at Chiquan, so the sad thing is that it obviously wasn't a spur of the moment thing, she was building up her rage to actually do it. Now she'll have to enter the juvenile system where they'll have to balance her premeditated actions against the fact that she is probably too young to really understand the consequences of her actions. It's a hosed up situation all around. I wonder if it's also meant to point out the futility of the security measures. You see things in this season like metal detectors at the doors, and kids with clear backpacks so they can't hide things in them, but somehow she still got a knife into the classroom and was even playing with it out in the open a little bit before she attacked. Though I suppose the other argument is that if things are that bad even with the security, how vile would it be without it? I dunno, everything sucks.
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Aug 19, 2013 16:01
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Ainsley McTree posted:I wonder if it's also meant to point out the futility of the security measures. You see things in this season like metal detectors at the doors, and kids with clear backpacks so they can't hide things in them, but somehow she still got a knife into the classroom and was even playing with it out in the open a little bit before she attacked. They show in another episode that the kids like to hide knives (and other stuff) in the bushes outside the classroom. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Aug 19, 2013 |
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Aug 19, 2013 18:27
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This is really fascinating in light of David Simon's rant (which was initially very badly reported, which I'm sure the journalist in him loved) about people missing the point/throwing context out the window in order to offer shallow,"TOP 10 BADASS THINGS OMAR DID" lists or "WHICH CHARACTER WOULD WIN IN A FIGHT!" tournament brackets etc. Here we have gifs divorced of all context, made by a robot so that the gifs aren't just completely random, but don't even make sense in terms of camera switches/scene transitions. The subtitles mean nothing divorced of context, though by the nature of randomness every so often you get a combination of image and text that seems to be saying something. Thanks for the link!
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Aug 19, 2013 22:34
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Jerusalem posted:This is really fascinating in light of David Simon's rant (which was initially very badly reported, which I'm sure the journalist in him loved) about people missing the point/throwing context out the window in order to offer shallow,"TOP 10 BADASS THINGS OMAR DID" lists or "WHICH CHARACTER WOULD WIN IN A FIGHT!" tournament brackets etc. Here we have gifs divorced of all context, made by a robot so that the gifs aren't just completely random, but don't even make sense in terms of camera switches/scene transitions. The subtitles mean nothing divorced of context, though by the nature of randomness every so often you get a combination of image and text that seems to be saying something. Is there a link or something to that rant?
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Aug 19, 2013 22:36
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Ainsley McTree posted:Is there a link or something to that rant? Rant really isn't the right word really, I'm guilty of the bad journalism I mentioned! Basically, he was doing an interview about a new Richard Price crime-drama, talk turned to The Wire as it always will for everything he does for the rest of his life, and the interview ended up discussing his thoughts on the way people came late to the show. His comments were essentially read as blaming people for not being there when it was on the air, and he had to do a follow-up clarification and then another interview to further explain his comments, both of which are linked as updates in that link I provided. A few choice comments: "That’s right. I do have a certain amused contempt for the number of people who walk sideways into the thing and act like they were there all along. It’s selling more DVDs now than when it was on the air. But I’m indifferent to who thinks Omar is really cool now, or that this is the best scene or this is the best season. It was conceived of as a whole, and we did it as a whole. For people to be picking it apart now like it’s a deck of cards or like they were there the whole time or they understood it the whole time — it’s wearying. Because no one was there in the beginning, or the middle, or even at the end. Our numbers continued to decline from Season 2 on." "Not the least of which are people who arrived to “The Wire” late, planted their feet, and want to explain to everybody why it’s so cool. Glad to hear it. But you weren’t paying attention. You got led there at the end and generally speaking, you’re asserting for the wrong things."
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Aug 19, 2013 22:50
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Jerusalem posted:Rant really isn't the right word really, I'm guilty of the bad journalism I mentioned! What he basically meant is that too many people watch the show superficially and don't look at the deeper themes and messages enough. I have to agree - I think those are what separates it from the other great dramas of this golden age. To me, the litmus test to how much a person truly understands and perceives the show is their opinion of Season 2. I don't mind if they didn't like it as much as the others, but it seems to me at times like people almost pretend it didn't happen, even though it's absolutely essential to the underlying thesis.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:02
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cletepurcel posted:What he basically meant is that too many people watch the show superficially and don't look at the deeper themes and messages enough. I have to agree - I think those are what separates it from the other great dramas of this golden age. Season 2 is probably the most depressing season when you think about it. It'd be easy to say season 4 is. I mean, it's about kids and they are the future and that future gets corrupted at a very, very, young age in a very, very thorough way and it's awful. The whole series is about how this happens and why. Season 2 though, is the real gut punch, because it shows that the mechanism by which all this horribleness could be done away with is broken down and being dismantled further with no real hope of recovery. It's about the engine which could legitimately solve all the issues, not just sweep em under the carpet like Hamsterdam or what-have-you, and the state it is in. They didn't just used to build stuff, they used to build a community. A society.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:11
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Orange Devil posted:Season 2 is probably the most depressing season when you think about it. It'd be easy to say season 4 is. I mean, it's about kids and they are the future and that future gets corrupted at a very, very, young age in a very, very thorough way and it's awful. The whole series is about how this happens and why. Season 2 though, is the real gut punch, because it shows that the mechanism by which all this horribleness could be done away with is broken down and being dismantled further with no real hope of recovery. It's about the engine which could legitimately solve all the issues, not just sweep em under the carpet like Hamsterdam or what-have-you, and the state it is in. Nah, the point the Wire hammers home again and again is that the failure is multi-layered and there is no simple fix to the problem of drugs. Make a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand, however many jobs and it won't magically fix the problem. Will those jobs magically go to all the drug addicts rather than the less suffering working class like those who live out in the county? If they do will a drug addict be able to keep them? Will having a job solve someone's addiction to coke or dope? Good jobs matter and having a thriving economy would lessen the scope of the drug problem and is certainly worth striving for, but is not in and of itself a solution.
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Aug 20, 2013 00:06
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I spoke with a friend about the wire recently. Basically, I'm kind of weird in that I don't mind the 5th season too much. What happened was that I got HBO in time for the 5th season, so that was the only one I watched live (well, not live as he pointed out but whatever). From that perspective, the 5th season was an interesting take on the usual crime procedural. It didn't occur to me how out of character it would be for Lester to go along with all those terrible and poorly planned out parts of the homeless murder storylines. For TV shows that aren't the wire, having someone as unmitigatedly evil as the newspaper bosses is not too out of the ordinary. Most importantly, it wasn't something that I saw immediately after Season 4. I of course realize now how subpar it is as a season, but I still kind of find it fun. Also, without the heartbreak of Season 4, Bubbles' storyline is a pleasant aside with a happy ending 
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Aug 20, 2013 05:09
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It was absolutely in character of Lester to go along with a hairbrained scheme. People act like he is infinitely wise but he loves loving over the big dogs more than anything else, including the rules or his career. He got put in the basement for 14 years once for it and went right back to it after he got out. He's McNulty with slightly more patience and better carpentry skills.
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Aug 20, 2013 06:40
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the black husserl posted:It was absolutely in character of Lester to go along with a hairbrained scheme. People act like he is infinitely wise but he loves loving over the big dogs more than anything else, including the rules or his career. He got put in the basement for 14 years once for it and went right back to it after he got out. He's McNulty with slightly more patience and better carpentry skills. I see it as a combination of the appalling nature of Marlo's crimes, the fact that Lester would have easily had Marlo a year earlier had the bosses not come down on the wiretaps, and the complete loving of the police budget by Carcetti that pushed Lester to snap. He was certainly arrogant enough to think, like McNulty, that he could get away with it but I'm not sure he would have done it if not for the particular circumstances. And really they might have gotten away with it if McNulty hadn't told Kima (though I think it's also made clear that Levy was going to tear the case to shreds in court even before that.) Simon has pointed out that Hamsterdam was actually far more implausible than the serial killer plot, because it required far more people to keep it quiet for that long, and the bit with postmortem strangle wounds being indistinguishable from premortem ones is based on something he actually heard one day in the morgue. Though one part always bothers me - when they set up the wiretap for the "serial killer", they agree that they're going to tap Marlo's number but use a bullshit number for the court paperwork. Yet when Daniels goes to confirm Kima's tip, he calls Marlo's cell from the serial killer paperwork and it matches. Is this a plot hole? On the other hand the serial killer stuff works a lot better when you watch it just as a black comedy. I agree that Bubbles' recovery alone makes season 5 worth watching, though.
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Aug 20, 2013 07:45
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cletepurcel posted:And really they might have gotten away with it if McNulty hadn't told Kima (though I think it's also made clear that Levy was going to tear the case to shreds in court even before that.) Simon has pointed out that Hamsterdam was actually far more implausible than the serial killer plot, because it required far more people to keep it quiet for that long, and the bit with postmortem strangle wounds being indistinguishable from premortem ones is based on something he actually heard one day in the morgue. Though one part always bothers me - when they set up the wiretap for the "serial killer", they agree that they're going to tap Marlo's number but use a bullshit number for the court paperwork. Yet when Daniels goes to confirm Kima's tip, he calls Marlo's cell from the serial killer paperwork and it matches. Is this a plot hole? Wrt the cell numbers I thought that Freamon had just used all of the phone numbers for the drug dealers and fudged the paperwork to make it look like they were tapping the serial killer. This makes sense because when they drop the serial killer and decide to go after Marlo and Freamon says that he has cracked the code Pearlman and Daniels kind of have a lightbulb "oh gently caress did he really? He really did, this is not going to go well" moment and the scene with Daniels calling the cell number confirms it for everyone that, yes, Freamon brought Marlo down with an illegal wiretap and if not for Pearlman somehow managing to convince Levy to not pursue it the whole thing would have been thrown out of court and everyone would have lost (except Marlo and crew because they would have just kept on trucking). Now if what you are suggesting is that they just should have used random numbers for the serial killer paperwork I think in order for a wiretap to actually come into effect it has to be a phone that is actually activated and in the network, which is why they had to keep renewing their wiretaps in season 3 because the phones were disposable and therefore wouldn't be on the network for very long. Of course I guess in a perfect world Freamon would've tried to drop the serial killer thing sooner to start on Marlo to make it seem like everything was more legit and airtight instead of his going "Oh hey we know where they are getting their supply from, let's hit them now and suffer the consequences later." One final thing that will probably get covered in Season 5 but kinda flew over my head, what happened to Clay Davis? One part of the episode he was making GBS threads his pants because he was going to have to stand before a Grand Jury and then next his lawyer is somehow spinning his embezzling as being for "the greater good" and he ended up walking? I mean I've watched a lot of Law and Order and other lawyer type things but I was just completely lost with that whole story.
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Aug 20, 2013 08:09
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Aces High posted:One final thing that will probably get covered in Season 5 but kinda flew over my head, what happened to Clay Davis? One part of the episode he was making GBS threads his pants because he was going to have to stand before a Grand Jury and then next his lawyer is somehow spinning his embezzling as being for "the greater good" and he ended up walking? I mean I've watched a lot of Law and Order and other lawyer type things but I was just completely lost with that whole story. When push came to shove he turned the Clay Davisness up to 11 and managed to get the Jury on side by presenting himself as a man of the people who had heroically given and given and given to his community and was now being harassed because he didn't keep receipts.
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Aug 20, 2013 08:20
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Whew! After two days of reading I'm finally caught up! Good catch on Cutty's eyes on Michael, I never noticed that (but would have definitely been noticed by Michael).
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Aug 20, 2013 08:37
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team overhead smash posted:When push came to shove he turned the Clay Davisness up to 11 and managed to get the Jury on side by presenting himself as a man of the people who had heroically given and given and given to his community and was now being harassed because he didn't keep receipts. It's one of the show's more blatantly unrealistic moments for several reasons but his trial is just so glorious  Besides, Clay actually getting convicted would go against every theme in the show. The whole thing would have been avoided if Bond hadn't insisted on taking the case himself, too, as the feds could have got him on the Headshot charge (which ironically enough is actually a completely trumped up charge, and certainly the least of his crimes.)I've always found the Clay trial interesting because it's one of the few times the show ventures into racial politics as well. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Aug 20, 2013 |
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Aug 20, 2013 08:39
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Just caught up to season five and my only real issue with the season is the strange time jump. I would have liked to have seen Jimmy's descent back into his old self. Its not that I don't believe he'd lose to his demons, but season four basically finishes with a flashing neon sign, "Will Jimmy conquer his demons? Stay Tuned!" And it feels like a missed step to go from "The MCU is back together" to "The MCU is defunded in fifty minutes". Season three did a similar time lapse, but they handled it better. That time, the team had built up a decent case but blew it up on miscommunication thanks to Cheese. Again, not saying I'd want ten episodes with the MCU making no progress (again). Still, I do love that slow sinking feeling during season five when you realize you've been reading Carcetti all wrong. Because he's introduced in season three, the Year of Reform, nearly everyone sees Carcetti's story as "Here's what happens when a politician tries to fix the system". When in reality, you've been watching the story of how a "Carcetti" is turned into a "Royce."
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Aug 20, 2013 09:25
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cletepurcel posted:It's one of the show's more blatantly unrealistic moments for several reasons but his trial is just so glorious The bolded part is so important. They had Clay dead to rights, and Bond couldn't resist trying to turn it into a PR stunt to further his own political career, and created a situation where a jury - not legal experts or officials - were in charge of Clay's fate. Clay has made a career of conning regular people, and he did the same thing here to escape what should have been his big comeuppance.
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Aug 20, 2013 11:00
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cletepurcel posted:I've always found the Clay trial interesting because it's one of the few times the show ventures into racial politics as well. People keep saying this and I wonder where the hell they're putting the goal posts for "racial politics" as though it isn't intrinsic to basically everything happening.
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Aug 20, 2013 12:37
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the black husserl posted:It was absolutely in character of Lester to go along with a hairbrained scheme. People act like he is infinitely wise but he loves loving over the big dogs more than anything else, including the rules or his career. He got put in the basement for 14 years once for it and went right back to it after he got out. He's McNulty with slightly more patience and better carpentry skills. Well that's the point. He waited to gently caress over the bosses for 15 years. It's pretty clear that over those 15 years there were lots of times that the police force was de-funded. Violent crime had been much higher in Baltimore in the 80s and 90s than 2000s. If he was going to blow his load on loving over the bosses, why not then? The true Freamon play was the one we just saw where he got out-manoeuvred by Rawls and Marimow. I agree that Lester is not above hare-brained schemes, but in the serial killer business, there was no exit strategy. As Rawls said, at some point the police would "actually have to catch this loving guy." And for what? You knock out Marlo and he'll just get replaced with someone worse.
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Aug 20, 2013 14:18
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cletepurcel posted:It's one of the show's more blatantly unrealistic moments for several reasons but his trial is just so glorious I don't think it's terribly, terribly unrealistic. In Homicide, Simon is pretty harsh on the critical thinking and justice-dispensing skills of Baltimore juries, for example in rule 9 of the "Homicide Lexicon": "To a jury, any doubt is reasonable; the better the case, the worse the jury; a good man is hard to find, but 12 of them, gathered together in one place, is a miracle." And this quote as well: "Once both sides have loudly argued the facts of the case, a jury of twelve men and women picked from computer lists of registered voters in one of America's most undereducated cities will go to a room and begin shouting. If these happy people manage to overcome the natural impulse to avoid any act of collective judgment, they just might find one human being guilty of murdering another." I wish I could find the part in the book now, but I remember a story in the he wrote about a jury who acquitted a murder suspect who stabbed (or shot, I forget) a guy several times because they thought there was a reasonable chance that someone came along later and dealt the victim the killing blow after the suspect had left...or something like that. Anyway, the point is, Simon's seems quite cynical about the reliability of Baltimore juries, and a scene where they let a charismatic local politician walk on a boring and complicated financial corruption charge doesn't seem too far fetched to me.
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Aug 20, 2013 16:10
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Whitlock sells the HELL out of the scene where he wins over the jury. Plus, the show makes multiple references to how drat complicated it is to separate "legal influence" from "political corruption." We might have been introduced to Clay Davis as the politician who's friggin driver had a gym bag full of drug money - but to most people in The Wire he's a local fixture and dependable politician. About the only "unrealistic" thing that pinged my radar was Bunny Colvin suddenly working in education in a matter of weeks, and just happening to set up shop at the same place as Prez.
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Aug 20, 2013 17:05
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Narcissus1916 posted:
Maybe thats true but you have to cut them a break. Its a great show but its still a show. It would be a lot to ask of them to establish two schools full of characters. You've gotta allow them some storytelling economy.
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Aug 20, 2013 17:52
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Nearly done with The Corner, should finish up by tomorrow and another fragile link between it and the Homicide book. In Homicide, Harry Edgerton investigates the death of Andrea Perry who is raped and murdered by Eugene Dale; the MLK Rec Center is ran by Ella Thompson, who's Andrea's mother. When Andrea's name first cropped up, it rang a bell, and when it's stated in The Corner that she was killed in 1988, it rang another, and when they dedicate the garden on Monroe to her, I double checked and sure enough, it's the same person. I'll have some more thoughts on the book when I'm done with it though
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Aug 20, 2013 22:30
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Love season 4 really the kids just made it for me. I think the Carver and Randy moment was just heart breaking especially when you see Randy again in season 5. Does anyone know what happened to all of them. Micheal is the only one I know about. At least Namond makes it out thanks to Bunny the whole conversation about him telling Namond that only his friends call him that and what he tells Namond he will do to him if he reveals why or something was a great moment that I have sadly forgotten the specifs off. For some reason my main memory of Dukie is him watching Dexter, which I kind of found odd and out of place.
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Aug 21, 2013 13:10
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*sorry double post
ally_1986 fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 13:13
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ally_1986 posted:For some reason my main memory of Dukie is him watching Dexter, which I kind of found odd and out of place. Wait when is this?
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Aug 21, 2013 17:12
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Frostwerks posted:Wait when is this? It's in season 5 very close to the end. I always took it as a shot at Dexter as an immature show (in that it's appeal is mainly to teenagers) posing as something meaningful.
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Aug 21, 2013 18:21
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ally_1986 posted:Love season 4 really the kids just made it for me. I think the Carver and Randy moment was just heart breaking especially when you see Randy again in season 5. Randy ends up in a group home, obviously becoming a hardened, damaged individual. Dukie ends up working/living with the trash peddler and I think the final montage shows him shooting dope.  Michael becomes the new Omar, and Namond gets out of the game when he is mentored (and ultimately adopted I think?) by Colvin.
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Aug 21, 2013 18:25
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It's kinda funny that Namond ends up getting sort-of-adopted by Colvin. Compared to some of the families around him, his folks are alright. Yeah his Dad's a serial killer and his Mum wants him pushing dope on the street but they still want what's best for him, in their own way. And who will look after the fish?
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Aug 21, 2013 19:03
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I just finished up the show the other day. I took it slow with seasons 1 through 3, then blew through 4 and 5 in a few days. It was really unlike anything else I've ever seen. I'm about 1/3 of the way through this thread, and I already want to do a rewatch. Luckily, my wife hasn't seen it so I can introduce it to her and give it a second viewing myself. My employer's main office is about 20mi from Baltimore, so I may have to do some filming location sightseeing next time I'm up for training. When I'm up there, I usually end up around the inner harbor near the aquarium or the convention center and don't really get a chance to go anywhere else. Also, I just found out Steve Earle is playing Friday night where I live. If I weren't low on cash right now, I would show up in a heartbeat. Sulphuric Sundae fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 19:08
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Fargo Fukes posted:It's kinda funny that Namond ends up getting sort-of-adopted by Colvin. Compared to some of the families around him, his folks are alright. Yeah his Dad's a serial killer and his Mum wants him pushing dope on the street but they still want what's best for him, in their own way. I dunno, I got the sense that the mom was looking out for herself more than him. She wanted him selling drugs because the barksdale "thanks for keeping your mouth shut about all those murders, Bey" faucet was drying up and she didn't now where else to look.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:12
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