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...The Xykon actually sounds less made up than Xykon does. (And now the word has lost all meaning.)
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Aug 27, 2013 06:08
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sebmojo posted:He's certainly been drifting towards neutral, but whether he gets to bust out the eraser for the alignment slot on his character sheet quite yet is another question. We know he's not there yet because he was deafened by Durkon's Holy Word.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:09
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A thought occurred to me a little while ago... you know who I'd ultimately like to see being responsible for Tarquin's death? Thog. Ignoring any debate on whether or not he survived the roof falling on him, ignoring any speculation on him replacing Belkar, I just think it'd be really satisfying to see. Especially considering his line about not working with people like Thog because they're "too unpredictable." Tarquin's convinced that he's the big bad of the story and that Elan's the hero. It would be the ultimate, "No, gently caress you, you're just as unimportant to the overall narrative as you thought Nale was," death for him to be killed by someone he dismissed out of hand as a minor, unimportant character, over an act he assumed nobody would care about. It'll probably never happen, but it's fun to imagine. 
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Aug 27, 2013 06:10
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Haschel Cedricson posted:We know he's not there yet because he was deafened by Durkon's Holy Word. That affects anyone that's not one of the Good alignments. That just means we know he's not Chaotic Good 
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Aug 27, 2013 06:11
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Hey Belkar, done any good deeds lately? Well, I'm sure you took the credit, since after all you're just faking character development and any good acts without an audience wouldn't fit at all into that. And we definitely didn't get a flashback from your perspective, showing that you were doing it out of genuine empathy for people you had every reason to hate and want to suffer, right? I mean, drat, if all of that was true, it'd be really really hard to argue that you're still just faking your character development instead of actually experiencing some for real.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:12
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sebmojo posted:He's certainly been drifting towards neutral, but whether he gets to bust out the eraser for the alignment slot on his character sheet quite yet is another question. Look if Sarevok can do it Belkar can do it too, okay
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Aug 27, 2013 06:13
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terminal mehmet posted:I'm surprised that V is still strapped to the table. They can't have a lot of time left on his claim after the temple escape, golem fight, reuniting with Durkon, talking to Tarquinn and Nale's execution. Eh the fight took at most 2 minutes, and V was down for 20. Also talking is a free action 
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Aug 27, 2013 06:19
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Blackheart posted:I keep my theory that his punishment will be dying a forgettable, almost off-panel death. Maybe raised as a mindless thrall by Xykon or something, not because of any revenge fantasy, but because it would just be so fitting. Maybe Sabine will help orchestrate it all somehow. Warren Ellis actually did this once in his run on Stormwatch. There was a group of well-meaning super people (not properly heroes) lead by a Superman-alike called "The High" who sat on a chair for like 30 years thinking of a way to make the world better. His conclusion was to find a way to transform the world into a post-needs society with no borders between countries, but unfortunately he just didn't get people all that well and he didn't realize that he was being manipulated by one of his team members, this petulant bitch with mind control powers. The mindcontroller bragged that she's doing all this to make the world more interesting, so she'll have more interesting toys to play with, and she's basically queen of the world. Stormwatch's commander's response is to beam her up and teleport her into space, and we don't even see it. Just the words "She's dead, sir" from an aide, and then the commander completely forgets about her and moves on to the problem of dealing with the rest of the High's group. So the lady who engineered this complete fuckup of a mission is not even afforded the time of day.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:28
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Willie McCoy posted:I think it's hilarious that we've been told in strip that Belkar is pretending to not be evil and people in this thread are totally buying his act. Since the gladiator arc he's started making those overtones without anybody in the vicinity listening for his RP XP, which would indicate genuine character growth.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:32
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CapnAndy posted:Hey Belkar, done any good deeds lately? Well, I'm sure you took the credit, since after all you're just faking character development and any good acts without an audience wouldn't fit at all into that. And we definitely didn't get a flashback from your perspective, showing that you were doing it out of genuine empathy for people you had every reason to hate and want to suffer, right? I mean, drat, if all of that was true, it'd be really really hard to argue that you're still just faking your character development instead of actually experiencing some for real. ...Right. He's no longer a full blown total psychopath. Feeling empathy, and doing one good thing, doesn't make up for a tenth of what we've explicitly seen him do on screen, let alone what's been implied. How about when he murdered the friendly gnome who said hi to him when he was escorting Roy's corpse out of Gobbotopia? Or when he made Yik-Yik's head into a salsa bowl? Or any number of casual acts of murder and psycopathy he's displayed? Saving two people doesn't erase that. Especially when he's shown no remorse for any of the crap he's done. Oh, and when his response to an old friend taking slaves is to help him until his cat is threatened. And then he brutally dismembers him and defiles the corpse. Ooh! And then, when he has authority over a sapient being that his party doesn't give a poo poo about (which is also a piss-poor reflection on them) he tortures him by having his cat poo poo in his mouth! Along with other things. I will literally never understand why anyone would give Belkar a pass for his behavior because he did one non-selfish thing. He's experiencing character growth and development, that doesn't make him a paragon of morality. Or even a halfway decent person. It moves him from cartoonishly over the top evil to something more low-scale. I mean would you argue Tarquin isn't evil because he's displayed genuine love, respect and affection for his comrades and family? Which is more than Belkar has ever done.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:36
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Nobody's saying that Belkar's present has outweighed his past. He's better than he was, and Alignment is a measure of who you are, not a sum total of who you are and have been.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:39
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Is it fair to say that Nale got Kubota'd? I really want Disintegrate + Gust of Wind to be a thing.
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Aug 27, 2013 06:56
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TunaSpleen posted:Is it fair to say that Nale got Kubota'd? I really want Disintegrate + Gust of Wind to be a thing. Heh, that's a good way of putting it. However, unlike Kubota, several people actually give a poo poo about THIS little poo poo who died. I can't imagine. Does Kubota have any heirs or family members or...anyone who'll miss him?
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Aug 27, 2013 06:59
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He will always have a place: in my heart. He was the troll the with squiggly horns, right?
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Aug 27, 2013 07:07
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Kubota was the Azure noble who tried to have Hinjo killed during the Battle of Azure City and then while they were on the island with the (eventually Banjo-worshipping) orcs. Therkla, the half-orc ninja who was crushing on Elan, was his servant. Elan captured Kubota and brought him back to the boats to face trial, and an exhausted and frustrated V arrived just in time to hear Kubota brag about how he was going to drag the trial out and get away with it, so V disintegrated Kubota and used a Gust of Wind to blow his ashes into the ocean.
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Aug 27, 2013 07:32
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I was not being sincere, but thank you for the reminder. It is appreciated.
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Aug 27, 2013 07:34
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W.T. Fits posted:A thought occurred to me a little while ago... you know who I'd ultimately like to see being responsible for Tarquin's death? This is very plausible actually. It would be ironic in just the right way. Thog is quite good for a melee fighter, isn't he? TunaSpleen posted:Is it fair to say that Nale got Kubota'd? I really want Disintegrate + Gust of Wind to be a thing. You can make a solid case for those being V's 'four words'.
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Aug 27, 2013 07:59
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Yeah, even right up to the fact when Rich said they weren't the 4 words.
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Aug 27, 2013 08:24
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Pope Guilty posted:Kubota was the Azure noble who tried to have Hinjo killed during the Battle of Azure City and then while they were on the island with the (eventually Banjo-worshipping) orcs. Therkla, the half-orc ninja who was crushing on Elan, was his servant. Elan captured Kubota and brought him back to the boats to face trial, and an exhausted and frustrated V arrived just in time to hear Kubota brag about how he was going to drag the trial out and get away with it, so V disintegrated Kubota and used a Gust of Wind to blow his ashes into the ocean.  mmkay posted:Yeah, even right up to the fact when Rich said they weren't the 4 words.
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Aug 27, 2013 08:40
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The Leper Colon V posted:"I... I must succeed." keeps getting crap for not counting as four words. But how else would you number that statement? "When you say the right three words (and a stutter) to the right being for all the wrong reasons" doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well. That whole part with V's prophecy felt like a bunch of off-notes with the story; apart from the four words, the whole "cut off your head" thing didn't work for me.
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Aug 27, 2013 09:22
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Do people read elipsis as a stutter? I was taught to use it as shorthand for an internal debate and use a dash for a stutter "I-I" would be a stutter and "I... I" would be a person hesitating while making an internal decision.
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Aug 27, 2013 09:29
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CapnAndy posted:Hey Belkar, done any good deeds lately? Well, I'm sure you took the credit, since after all you're just faking character development and any good acts without an audience wouldn't fit at all into that. And we definitely didn't get a flashback from your perspective, showing that you were doing it out of genuine empathy for people you had every reason to hate and want to suffer, right? I mean, drat, if all of that was true, it'd be really really hard to argue that you're still just faking your character development instead of actually experiencing some for real. Belkar might be less of a monster than he started, but suggesting that he's not evil because he let a rampaging dino out into an arena fight is... a stretch. You kinda need to work a bit harder to move up the alignment scale when your averaging about a kilonazi of evil.
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Aug 27, 2013 10:29
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mmkay posted:Yeah, even right up to the fact when Rich said they weren't the 4 words. The point he makes in the commentary to DSTP is that the repeated 'I' is significant; V's decision is purely ego-driven. My four words don't have that resonance.
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Aug 27, 2013 11:22
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Capfalcon posted:Belkar might be less of a monster than he started, but suggesting that he's not evil because he let a rampaging dino out into an arena fight is... a stretch. Also the argument that Belkar is just "pretending" sort of misses the entire point of what Shojo was trying to do.
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Aug 27, 2013 11:44
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Spiderdrake posted:Also the argument that Belkar is just "pretending" sort of misses the entire point of what Shojo was trying to do. One year.
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Aug 27, 2013 11:51
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Speedball posted:Heh, that's a good way of putting it. However, unlike Kubota, several people actually give a poo poo about THIS little poo poo who died. Given the culture of the Azure City nobles, his heirs are happy to have him out of the way so they can assume power.
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Aug 27, 2013 12:24
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Spiderdrake posted:Yeah although I'm firmly in the Belkar is less evil camp I doubt he's past NE yet. And I have more examples than just that one act, by the way. Belkar cares about someone who isn't him Durkon's sacrifice makes him hate himself because he doesn't think he's worthy of that Belkar gets Roy back in the game even when "screw this, let's leave" was on the table (Also, more self-loathing) Belkar's perfect life involves no evil acts whatsoever Belkar, at 1 HP, leaps into combat because he sees a threat to the party He's definitely not acting evil any more. If it's enough to have shifted his alignment is up for debate, but "is he just faking it" no longer is.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:36
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He hasn't acted evil for... under a day in-comic time. Don't jump the gun.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:59
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In D&D, do past atrocities matter when it is being decided what afterlife you go to? If you slaughter a few dozen villages in your twenties but then end up being a paragon of Good for the rest of your life, would your soul have to answer for those crimes?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:04
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This is literally the post-illusion Roy/Belkar conversation. Belkar's fake change is turning into real change. That's his character arc. When he dies at the end of the story it's going to be in a heroic self-sacrificial act.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:05
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I still think everything the oracle says is unreliable.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:08
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nimby posted:In D&D, do past atrocities matter when it is being decided what afterlife you go to? I think the rule is that you could put good in the character sheet as soon as your dude becomes honestly devoted to helping others, but if he dies before he can commit enough good deeds to outweigh his past, he's not getting into the good afterlife.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:09
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Since we're talking about D&D, "there's a spell for that": atonement. Its existence strongly implies that past actions still weigh on you, even if you have changed.quote:This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Since nobody cast atonement on Belkar, he has to atone the old fashioned, non-spellcasting way, and it's going to take a lot more time and/or a heroic sacrifice. (Also, good acts that are better than "saving two people by killing dozens of others, and finding it hilarious".)
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Aug 27, 2013 17:17
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Well, one would assume that the Good deities would require, at bare minimum, for such a person to show contrition, regret, etc., for all of the major acts of evil they've committed, as well as an honest, conscious effort to make amends. And of course, this all assumes said person never crossed some line that said deities would find truly unforgivable (such as, say, V and Familicide).
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Aug 27, 2013 17:20
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Cat Mattress posted:Since we're talking about D&D, "there's a spell for that": atonement. Its existence strongly implies that past actions still weigh on you, even if you have changed. I always felt that atonement was only a spell because the designers didn't want to have a whole separate category of 'religious rituals' or whatever. It's basically just an elaborate apology to a god and the DM decides whether it's accepted or not.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:26
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DoctorTristan posted:I always felt that atonement was only a spell because the designers didn't want to have a whole separate category of 'religious rituals' or whatever. It's basically just an elaborate apology to a god and the DM decides whether it's accepted or not. I have always outlawed that spell in games I played and use alternate systems instead. Because seriously.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:34
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terminal mehmet posted:I have always outlawed that spell in games I played and use alternate systems instead. Because seriously. I thought people only used it to let Paladins get their powers back after the DM purposefully put them in a situation where every choice would lead to them falling. I've never seen someone bother using it in game because I don't do that/play with people that do that.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:56
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Well, just wondering out of curiosity's sake more than anything else... What would be an example of a situation where a Paladin would become Fallen no matter what?
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Aug 27, 2013 18:05
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Regalingualius posted:Well, just wondering out of curiosity's sake more than anything else... What would be an example of a situation where a Paladin would become Fallen no matter what?
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Aug 27, 2013 18:06
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Regalingualius posted:Well, just wondering out of curiosity's sake more than anything else... What would be an example of a situation where a Paladin would become Fallen no matter what? I dunno, your standard Warhammer 40k/Diablo plot, where someone is being overwhelmed by unquenchable evil, so your choices are murder an innocent child or allow the death of millions.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:09
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