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paragon1 posted:Also, if we defeat Asherah we might be able to gain dominion of the coast and one day fulfill that old pirate king ambition that was the rationale for so many behind picking Athar in the first place. Sold. But seriously ... SerSpook posted:Shushem frequently mentioned that we are all slaves to Asherah, yes? That seems to reveal the attitude that the people of Athar have. I'd read that more in the same way someone might be slave to gravity or slave to the whims of nature. I get that it might seem like a sensible 'goal' to want to help out the people we grew up with and had a fondness for, but personally I don't see it as a believable goal for this character, particularly at this time, as I neither think he'd see his people as being particularly poorly off (nobody ever seemed to have many qualms, we were the only one that might have been cruelly treated), nor do I think he'd see antagonizing or defeating Asherah as a possibility, not a realistic one anyway. Rather more of a suicidal delusion. I mean, I'm not saying any option is beyond all realm of sense, but as to the question of why people might not be voting for P, well ...
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Sep 1, 2013 02:58
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Sure, I can agree with that reading of slave. But we also believe them to be a group of cannibals, that have people we care about among them. And we have been raised the last two years, and throughout our life with Jalitha, to believe people need rescuing from cannibals. I don't think the goal of a 13 year old that grew up hearing stories of great heroes doing amazing deeds, that found treasure in a very strange magical place, and that has literally lived with a divine king for the last two years will necessarily be the sort of thing you'd normally expect a kid of that age to have. I'd expect it to be big, something larger than life, even if it's a suicidal delusion. That's not to say I dislike the other goals, but I think the Athar goal better serves the story and the character. It's not just the normal "I want to be a hero" you'd expect to hear, or the very responsible "I want to advise the king." It's big, it's larger than life, and that's exactly the sort of thing a hero would say.
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Sep 1, 2013 03:19
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1. D. I want to one of the Mighty Men, like Barkof and Aaron! This is a completely logical and normal goal for a 13 year old. "I want to be like my heroes!" is great. 2. A. No. You have thought about it further or been calmed down by your mothers words and do not care anymore. Also pretty normal, accepting what mom says.
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Sep 1, 2013 03:20
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The reason I didn't pick P is the whole converting people to El thing. We as a character don't know what we believe/who we honor most, so it's a bit strange to have our goal be a religious quest. I think most people want a heroic path, but picking P is kind of putting the cart before the horse. We don't even know if we can be a mighty man/badass yet, how could we even conceive of killing a demigod?
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Sep 1, 2013 03:25
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Crudus posted:The reason I didn't pick P is the whole converting people to El thing. We as a character don't know what we believe/who we honor most, so it's a bit strange to have our goal be a religious quest. I'd argue that heroes are heroic because they conceive of these seemingly impossible things, and then set out to do them.
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Sep 1, 2013 03:29
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1. 2. 
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Sep 1, 2013 03:53
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SerSpook posted:I'd argue that heroes are heroic because they conceive of these seemingly impossible things, and then set out to do them. Well put. I voted to convert our village. I almost voted for the musician option... I really want to become a master flutist. Although master flutist is not exclusive from any of the other options. We can just Pied Piper our way to our goals.
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Sep 1, 2013 04:54
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N, and L because why not?, and we'll find out the answer soon enough anyway. Can we retrospectively ask Bareen, or whoever we would, regarding that ruling by Tudiya?; "If that man was being bad to his slaves, why was the slave killed for trying to help?" Although the answers pretty obvious, I just want to see their reasons for justifying it. And although it'll probably have to be put up for vote, did we ever wonder about our village or what become of Jorah?, because I'm sure we would have compared Keza to Shushem at least once. I want to ask Mum; "What do you think happened to Jorah?, I miss him - he should have come with us!" (yea so our notdad might have been a bit of a dick, but Jorah was still our bro  )
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Sep 1, 2013 05:02
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maxhush posted:N, and L because why not?, and we'll find out the answer soon enough anyway. Perhaps we should at some point really emphasize to Keza that in fact we are a barbarian, demon worshipping cannibal as she suspects. It has been a long time since we ate anyone and we are getting a bit peckish.
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Sep 1, 2013 05:38
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I think Keza's deal is that she doesn't like it when other servants or slaves have more status than her, and we qualify as having more status. This was proven without a doubt during the room debate, and later on when we had Snarls Barkley poo poo all over her room and didn't get in trouble.
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Sep 1, 2013 05:40
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Maybe, if we're charitable, we could imagine that she thinks we're free and she's jealous that we have what she can't?
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Sep 1, 2013 06:06
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E + P I want to be a King. In Athar. After I slay Asherah, bring the People together, found a city, and convert them in the name of El and the Melachim. B We need to go to the source on this. A RICH WHITE MAN fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Sep 1, 2013 |
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Sep 1, 2013 06:06
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A RICH WHITE MAN posted:E + P I want to be a King. In Athar. After I slay Asherah, bring the People together, found a city, and convert them in the name of El and the Melachim. Yeah, this is what I'd like too. Use Asherah's skull as the gate, so consider my P vote to really be E+P.
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Sep 1, 2013 06:09
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SerSpook posted:Sure, I can agree with that reading of slave. But we also believe them to be a group of cannibals, that have people we care about among them. And we have been raised the last two years, and throughout our life with Jalitha, to believe people need rescuing from cannibals. You know, I didn't see too many things in that list that are mutually exclusive, provided we live long enough. We should do them all, like a real hero of legend.
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Sep 1, 2013 07:08
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Just gonna throw out there (based on the hierarchy of the last game, and reading some about sumerian theology on wikipedia) that maybe El is himself a Melachim, and just happens to be thought of as god #1 by the Zepathians since he is their patron/most worshipped/etc, which means he gets the lions share of power in a self-fulfilling cycle, etc. The reason I mention this is that I just don't feel like getting behind any option that says "do x in the name of y" until we know more about the actual theological structure of things in game.
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Sep 1, 2013 13:40
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tarepanda posted:Maybe, if we're charitable, we could imagine that she thinks we're free and she's jealous that we have what she can't? Hmm. Interesting. I could also see her really hating us/Jalitha if she had children that are also slaves she doesn't get to see. Anyways, I wonder if at some point we could buy/win Keza's freedom? She'd probably still hate us, but she'd also probably get off Jalitha's back. Something to think about for down the road anyway.
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Sep 1, 2013 15:25
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Crudus posted:Just gonna throw out there (based on the hierarchy of the last game, and reading some about sumerian theology on wikipedia) that maybe El is himself a Melachim, and just happens to be thought of as god #1 by the Zepathians since he is their patron/most worshipped/etc, which means he gets the lions share of power in a self-fulfilling cycle, etc. Doesn't hold water; our mother isn't from Zepath, and she worships El as the One God.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:11
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For me since the gods are manifest and belief is not required 'conversion' makes no sense.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:34
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Sogol posted:For me since the gods are manifest and belief is not required 'conversion' makes no sense. The question is not which power to you believe exists, the question is which power do you follow, serve and depend upon. To the followers of El, Asherah is not a god at all, but rather a monster or a demon. In this case the conversion would mean that instead of trying to appease Asherah directly, the people would worship El and depend upon El and the sky giants to keep them safe from Asherah. BTW, El's followers definitely do have coastal cities, since they occasionally eat whales. Why "be a hero that saves Athar" rather than a more generic "be a hero"? Because we will need the help of the locals in order to be a hero at all. Half the boys in the city would probably like to grow up to be heroes, but they can't afford the training and equipment to do it. Plus, "I want to be a hero" sounds greedy and selfish, like we desire personal glory and treasure. The true heroes in this culture claim to be descended from sky giants and possess magical power and strength beyond that of normal men -- and so far we show no signs of that kind of ability. There is simply no reason for anyone to take our ambition to "be a hero" seriously. We do have some unique qualities when it comes to saving Athar. We speak the language. We have a child's understanding of the culture. We understand the basics of 3 religious systems, and could explain them. We are living proof that the savages of Athar can be civilized. Wanting to save the people of Athar from the murderous demon that enslaves them is a noble goal, not a self-aggrandizing one. We may well be the best possible person to try to save Athar. OOC we know that religious wars tend to be really messy and horrible for the target civilization, but Ekindel doesn't know that. Our new city has some great innovations like warm clothing, soft beds, and strong walls. We have mainly seen how the very privileged ruling and priestly classes live, and it looks pretty sweet. It is natural for a kid to want to go home, see his uncles again, and tell everyone what he has seen and learned. And natural that a kid would imagine mixing the best parts of the two civilizations together into a super awesome fun time, without considering the repercussions of that.
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Sep 1, 2013 20:02
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Yeh, it is also possible that there is an economy of attention or worship. Asharak is hungry, but presumably not simply for protein. What is he hungry for? What happens if he is not fed for a long period of time? Can he starve? Does he get more power by feeding? A humans tastier for some reason? Similarly is the conflict between Tudiya and Bareen more than simply political? Does the exageration of Tudiya's deeds serve more than a political purpose? Does the manifestation of powers always require the presence of attention and some form of sacrifice, sometimes explicit like blood, other times having more to do with attention? Are the Zepathians praying in battle, actively or even as a passive habit and practice, such as doing something for the glory of El? I am thinking about this because I am wondering how our flute and sandals work. Maybe using the artifact is some form of worship/prayer. With sandals maybe walking itself becomes prayer and we can experience the effect, but we just don't understand the effect of the prayer flute? I am also thinking that slavery could be interesting in this context if intentionally entered into as a form of sacrifice. Course Og/Enkidel is not thinking about any of those things except maybe- what's up with this flute? I am not clear that the notion of salvation could even really occur to us, though we seem very clear about protection and curiosity.
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Sep 1, 2013 20:23
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Sogol posted:I am not clear that the notion of salvation could even really occur to us, though we seem very clear about protection and curiosity. Our mom told us El will save women and children in danger if they pray to him. And sure enough, El did eventually send heroes to save her and her child, so it seems like she got that right.
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Sep 1, 2013 20:32
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Angela Christine posted:BTW, El's followers definitely do have coastal cities, since they occasionally eat whales. I want to give a little more time to vote before we update, but I wanted to address this one point to make sure people have the right mental map. We may even have a real map added within a few updates! They do not have coastal cities. Zepath is, apparently, the southernmost and westernmost city and also the city closest to the ocean, though it is still far enough away that it plays little role in the daily lives of the people. Athar, your village, was apparently in the middle of fuckall. It took 3 months to walk to Zepath from there. Zepath is also a bit out in the boondocks as far as the cities of Ur are concerned. Ishamal said his favorite food was whale. It is a rare and exotic treat.
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Sep 1, 2013 20:37
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N. I want to be a great explorer like Zepa, grandson of Labaras, the founder of Zepath and see the world! B. Ask Tudiya How do we know, beyond a doubt, it was really El that saved us from Athar? I seem to remember Tudiya stumbling off doing king things, and going off to trade, before our mom ran out and got rescued. I honestly think it was just a coincidence, Tudiya is a hell of a braggart. Stop with the rampant El worship people, fucker ain't perfect. Personally I want a wider view of the world. Theres a lot more going on here than El good, Asherah bad, and I wanna find out what that is.
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Sep 1, 2013 22:22
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Most of us voting P are less interested in mass-converting to El (though it might be a valid strategy) and more interested in destroying the fishgod in glorious single combat and using his skull as the gate to our rad new coastal city. El just might give us the power to do so, and of the gods we've seen so far he seems the most positive to humanity in general.
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Sep 2, 2013 01:38
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SerSpook posted:Most of us voting P are less interested in mass-converting to El (though it might be a valid strategy) and more interested in destroying the fishgod in glorious single combat and using his skull as the gate to our rad new coastal city. El just might give us the power to do so, and of the gods we've seen so far he seems the most positive to humanity in general. On the other hand, our powers now consist of walking a lot and playing a flute when nobody is listening. :x
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Sep 2, 2013 03:15
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tarepanda posted:On the other hand, our powers now consist of walking a lot and playing a flute when nobody is listening. :x On the other hand, we aren't going out on our quest tomorrow. Long-term goals, people!
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Sep 2, 2013 03:17
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A RICH WHITE MAN posted:On the other hand, we aren't going out on our quest tomorrow. Long-term goals, people! Pretty much this. Also, I said it earlier, but a hero doesn't say "I'm going to be a hero" they say "I'm going to do X". Traveling certainly has an impact on us, and can forge us into a hero, but it isn't the incredibly over the top statement that "I want to kill a god/demon/whatever" is, and I think killing Asherah is something our boy can conceive of. Still, traveling is pretty cool. Honestly, none of these options are bad and aren't exclusive to one another--I'm sure we will kill fishgod one day, even if we don't decide to today. eta: For what it's worth, I think it's pretty clear we have some divinity in us. Not as much as Danal, but at age 13 we're almost six feet tall. Jalitha, while taller than the people of our village, wasn't the giant that the High Priestess of the Melachim temple is for instance. However, it seems like women generally don't benefit from this lineage, so Jalitha not having it doesn't mean we don't. We also don't know our father, and successfully resisted the sleeping song in that temple place where we got our treasure. I'm convinced we have something special. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 03:38
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SerSpook posted:eta: For what it's worth, I think it's pretty clear we have some divinity in us. Not as much as Danal, but at age 13 we're almost six feet tall. Jalitha, while taller than the people of our village, wasn't the giant that the High Priestess of the Melachim temple is for instance. However, it seems like women generally don't benefit from this lineage, so Jalitha not having it doesn't mean we don't. We also don't know our father, and successfully resisted the sleeping song in that temple place where we got our treasure. I'm convinced we have something special. I'm with you here, but for what it's worth (not that I think you're necessarily suggesting it), I don't think it's El swimming in our blood.
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Sep 2, 2013 04:32
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Theglavwen posted:I'm with you here, but for what it's worth (not that I think you're necessarily suggesting it), I don't think it's El swimming in our blood. I think it's Asherah actually and have for awhile.
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Sep 2, 2013 04:35
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SerSpook posted:I think it's Asherah actually and have for awhile. You can't just drop this without some explanation. I do agree that Enky has some super natural blood. Maybe our father is a hero or some god/angel we have not met. I just can't imagine a being like Asherah ever creating any sort of life.
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Sep 2, 2013 05:32
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:You can't just drop this without some explanation. I wouldn't imagine it's anything like Asherah is our father or some nonsense (although I suppose, Jalitha did wash up on shore...), rather I'd expect it to have been something of an accident. Even if Asherah is capable of brief moments of lucidity, in which it's pointedly imbued power into some mortal kid for some unknown reason, I'd imagine it would be more of a right/wrong place at the right/wrong time sort of deal. Like something that might happen while being shoved into the surf with an open head-wound during an Asherahn ritual as a young child. Anyway, just think of how hungry we seem to be all the time. Man we really can chow down.
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Sep 2, 2013 05:38
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Theglavwen posted:Anyway, just think of how hungry we seem to be all the time. Man we really can chow down. When I was a 13-year-old boy...
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Sep 2, 2013 06:00
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:You can't just drop this without some explanation. Jalitha washed ashore, possibly pregnant at the time. It's not even a case of creating life either; while in the sea, we could have been imbued with a bit of that instead of a divine pregnancy or something. Alternatively, Shushem was actually our father and he may have had something of Asherah in his lineage. I'll say this though. According to Jalitha, Shushem is not our father. Our complexion, though, suggests someone from the village was. Or perhaps a god of that village. I know Uncle Jorah was a suggestion much earlier in the thread, which is possible, but the story of Asherah was more than just him eating stuff. It also involved creating his children. There are also the other gods of the village that were less evil than Asherah in general. Like Crabgod. eta: Theglavwen points out another way for us to have a bit of Asherah in us with the ritual when we were a child. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 06:12
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If Jorah was indeed our father I don't think our mother would have hesitated in telling us, she did love the man after all. I think we only linked ourselves to Asherah when we gave him a taste. A lot of you are expecting there is even a town to go back to and rescue, the way we left it with everything going wild and stormy I believe Athar may be wiped off the world. Although with the way kings find places by being called to them, having a strong motivation to go back might be the only way to EVER find it again.
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Sep 2, 2013 06:32
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I tallied up the votes. I didn't know what to do with the 2 people who voted for 2 choices on one question. Anyways. The winning choices by a large margin were 1. N with 8 votes and 2. B with 13 votes. I would put up the spreadsheet, but I just don't want to deal with setting up google drive.
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Sep 3, 2013 01:17
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A RICH WHITE MAN posted:Doesn't hold water; our mother isn't from Zepath, and she worships El as the One God. Nothing about my theory says two populations can't worship/acknowledge the same god as being number one. There could be a dozen villages over the hill that hold one of the other Melachim in highest esteem. There are even some Zepathians who do, it's been mentioned.
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Sep 3, 2013 11:48
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The loss of your freedom... The idea that you ARE a slave has caused you increasingly to worry. You have not yet worked up the courage to ask any of the adults in your life and some days as you watch Tudiya oversee disputes in the market, you have even gone over arguments in your mind, to try to argue that if you ARE a slave, you should not be! Finally, you ask your mother. At first she changes the topic, but you keep at it and finally get an answer out of her. She gives you a hug, places a hand on each of your shoulders and sighs. "I do not know Sweetling. I think you may be, but what of it? Has Tudiya been unkind to you, or Danal? Aren't you happy here? Danal is a little boy now Sweetling, but he will not be forever and he will have need of you, even when he is a man. You are almost a man sweetling, what do you want out of life?" You have to think about it for a moment and are uncertain but then say, "I want to be a great explorer, like Zepa" you tell your mother "I wish to see the world and climb the mountains Ishamal spoke of and sail the seas, to see all the wonders he spoke of!" Your mother sighs "Here, we are safe Sweetling and well cared for. Those stories you have heard are not just tales and there are places far worse and more dangerous than Athar out there... and what of Danal... and of me?" She just does not understand. You want more from life... You give your mother a hug and leave to think upon your mother's words. The next day, Tudiya sits upon the King's Seat in a stall in the market, a leather merchant to his left and a fruit seller in a stall on his right, both are packing up their shops and preparing to go home. Zepath is a city of thousands, not tens of thousands and Tudiya's regular routine, as you well know, involves spending a few hours in the market, a few days a week, peddling justice as others sell wares of many sort. There is no great fanfare to see the King here, indeed, it is a common occurrence, Tudiya taking his chair and setting up in whatever stall is empty, Tudiya brings no bodyguard for indeed the man is a giant, though he sometimes brings a scribe.  It has been a slow day, a minor dispute over the price of grain which Tudiya resolved and a pair of men given a fine for drunkenly brawling in the streets. Danal was often forced to come, a duty he finds incredibly boring. You have often come when Danal was not required to, as you found it interesting, sometimes running small errands. Today is one such day. The afternoon is late on this summer day. It is hot and many merchants have already packed up for the day. You decide now is the time to ask. You walk in front of him as you have seen others who come to him seeking to have their disputes resolved or for guidance and you kneel. From this angle you can even better appreciate his massive size, eight and a half feet tall and all of it muscle. This man who looks to be in his 30s yet you know to be older than a hundred.  "What is it, Child? Surely you do not intend to grumble over the price of grain as well" Tudiya asks in a joking tone, referring to the only dispute he has overseen today. You understand him well enough and he seems at times to understand you, perfectly. Your grasp of the language of Zepath is still clumsy at best but you can generally communicate what you wish to say, if not at all artfully. Danal, who has somewhat learned your tongue understands you well and Tudiya seems to understand you... perfectly, at times at least. You have yet to figure out if he always understands you or only at certain times. You bow your head and ask. "Great King... am... am I a slave, or am I free?" Tudiya frowns deeply. He lifts a goblet and a pitcher from a table beside him, fills the goblet with water and takes a long drink, as if to leave you thinking on your question, he then places the goblet down. "Perhaps" he says, frowning deeper "and if you are, what of it? Have I mistreated you Child? Have I been unkind to you? Have I not fed you from my own table, sheltered you in my own home, clothed you and given you all that you own, even the friendship of my son?" He takes another long drink from the goblet, overly long, leaving you to think. He places the goblet down again and continues. "Are you a slave? You wound me gravely to ask such a thing Child. There have been no beatings here as Shushem would give you-" you never told him about that and your mother, who was adamant Tudiya never find out Shushem was your "father", never would have told him "placed you into the arms of your true mother-" you most certainly did not tell him about THAT "nor have you been sent to work the fields or bake bricks, how can you ask me such a thing? Have you been mistreated in any way?" Tudiya's tone hints he is mostly hurt you would ask him such a question, rather than angry. Perhaps he thinks you feel mistreated and is offended on that account? His words seem to hint so. You have lived with him and been the constant companion to his son for two years and even without Danal spent many hours watching him do "King Stuff" which you decided you found interesting. 1. You.... A. Gulp, rationally decide this was a bad idea, apologize and thank Tudiya for all he has done for you. B. Look up to Tudiya and feel genuinely bad because you seem to have hurt his feelings, you apologize and back off the issue. C. You do not calmly decide this was a bad idea, nor do you feel guilt, but rather, you panic because you are genuinely filled with fear at the realization that this was a terrible idea and fear that you have negatively effected your future. Stammer out the best apology you can, given your age and mental state at present. D. Thank him, apologize, but say you must know if you are a slave. E. Thank him, do not apologize, but say you must know if you are a slave. F. Do not thank him, apologize, but say you must know if you are a slave. G. In response, simply ask him if you are a slave. H. Explain you want to see the world and you cannot do that if you are a slave. I. Run away. Simply run away for now, you will decide what to do next when you are out of his sight. J. You are still a child, even if you are a literal old for it, you are overwhelmed by the situation, break down emotionally and hope for the best. K. You have another response. Fill in. There are many possible responses. I included what I thought would be the most popular ones, by all means, put something else if you want to. You have spent many long hours thinking how you might make a legal argument that you are free or should be free, if you discovered you were a slave. In a moment, you might have your response and know if you are a slave or not. Do not assume that the fact this question exists says you are a slave, Tudiya has not yet told you and your response to number one above, chance and other factors might change the outcome. 2. If Tudiya tells you that you are a slave, will you make a legal argument to him in response? A. I voted to back off from the issue above, or for any option which did not seek an answer to the question of my status, so I do not get a vote here. B. I will make that argument, someday, but not today. C. I will make the argument, now. Watching Tudiya's market sessions I have paid close attention and I will make a dispassionate legal argument rooted in the law. As best as I can as an illiterate 13 year old. D. I will make the argument, now. It will be an emotional and passionate argument rooted in more vague ideas of justice and fairness rather than the law itself, as best I can muster, given my youth and rhetorical inexperience. E. I will make the argument, now. It will be a legal argument rooted in religious zeal for El, creator of all. F. I will make the argument, now. It will be a legal argument rooted in religious zeal for the Melachim("Sky Giant") Smattas, the patron Melachim of justice. G. I will make a legal argument with another tone in mind. Specify. H. I changed my mind. I do not want to make a legal argument about why I should be free and want to say something else entirely. Specify what you want to say instead. I. I will do something else entirely. Specify. Diogines fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 22:47
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1: B & H. Thank him, apologize, but tell him that you wish to travel the world and can't do so as a slave. 2: I "Please grant me the right to make my case in three years time."
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Sep 3, 2013 22:54
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H -- It seems that wanting to be an explorer is what triggered this, so that's what we should stay. We've already intruded on his judgment session and shouldn't make things worse by acting immature and running away or crying. H, again. Explain that we are grateful for everything he has done for us and that we have certainly been happy under his wing and at his son's side. Happy, but unfulfilled. Ask if there is some service we could perform for him in return for our freedom. Repeat again that we hold him in the highest esteem and are truly grateful for what he has done, and that his son is our friend, no matter what.
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Sep 3, 2013 22:57
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1: H This is what's really behind our curiosity, after all. He seems to know what others do not, and while it's possible our mother simply told him what he knows he has shown himself to be supernatural on these issues in the past. Our honesty here would be a positive thing to display, and this is a rather true and just question. 2: tarepanda posted:H, again. Explain that we are grateful for everything he has done for us and that we have certainly been happy under his wing and at his son's side. Happy, but unfulfilled. Ask if there is some service we could perform for him in return for our freedom. Repeat again that we hold him in the highest esteem and are truly grateful for what he has done, and that his son is our friend, no matter what. I agree with this. There isn't a need to play the legal game right now. What we need to do is just tell him the truth. I don't think even he has truly decided what we are, yet.
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Sep 3, 2013 23:01
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