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Please don't troll and compare Sting to Austin in terms of being a draw.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:28
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SAVE_US.CHR 
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EugeneJ posted:Sting would run-in during commercial breaks and take out the nWo during Nitro tapings - it was never televised, but the point was that the live crowd wanted Sting so they were given Sting...usually during a blackout so they were left wanting more. There was a similar length period where Zack Ryder had that kind of "crowd anticipation" too. That's a pretty weak argument unless you make even an attempt at quantifying what that meant past "my childhood memories."
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Sep 10, 2013 03:30
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EugeneJ posted:Sting would run-in during commercial breaks and take out the nWo during Nitro tapings - it was never televised, but the point was that the live crowd wanted Sting so they were given Sting...usually during a blackout so they were left wanting more. Triple H would be sent to Smackdown to pedigree geeks off TV to pop the crowd too. You know what the difference is? HHH is a Hall of Famer. Sting was extremely over in 1997. He was also part of what was the best roster of talent in the history of wrestling to that point and one of several megastars. You can't give the whole thing to Sting, or to Hogan, or three letters, but in the end it doesn't matter. It was one year. One buyrate. There are so many guys who have had bigger and more sustained peaks and couldn't sustain. Those guys also didn't go to TNA and become the face of failure.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:32
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jeffersonlives posted:There was a similar length period where Zack Ryder had that kind of "crowd anticipation" too. That's a pretty weak argument unless you make even an attempt at quantifying what that meant past "my childhood memories." I have never seen Zack Ryder merch in national chain stores. It all went to poo poo quickly, but the nWo/Sting rivalry dominated 1997.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:34
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MassRafTer posted:Those guys also didn't go to TNA and become the face of failure. To be fair, Sting was also the face of failure in early-90s WCW. Another part of Sting's problematic case is that he only had like two or three very good matches in his entire career. He wasn't a bad worker, but he wasn't all that good, and almost all of the people he's fighting on the ballot with were far better.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:34
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EugeneJ posted:It all went to poo poo quickly, but the nWo/Sting rivalry dominated 1997. Find me one guy in the Observer HOF who got in for being super over/in a hot angle for only one year.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:36
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jeffersonlives posted:To be fair, Sting was also the face of failure in early-90s WCW. I will argue that isn't true, he had several great matches with Vader, a couple with Flair (but less than most would think) one with DDP and one with the Steiners. There's a few just below that level too, like the Angle stuff in TNA. That's about it though, and here's the problem... Chris Benoit main evented a Wrestlemania with more buys than Sting's Starrcade and Chris Benoit sure as poo poo ain't in the Hall of Fame for his drawing.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:37
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jeffersonlives posted:To be fair, Sting was also the face of failure in early-90s WCW. I think that's the easiest/most sensible explanation. I didn't watch much WCW before the nWo came along, but as far as I know, Sting was the most bankable/dependable face WCW had for several years - not necessarily the best.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:41
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ChampRamp posted:Find me one guy in the Observer HOF who got in for being super over/in a hot angle for only one year. Konnan
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Sep 10, 2013 03:42
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MassRafTer posted:I will argue that isn't true, he had several great matches with Vader, a couple with Flair (but less than most would think) one with DDP and one with the Steiners. There's a few just below that level too, like the Angle stuff in TNA. That's about it though, and here's the problem... There was a match with Foley that Mick put on one of his earlier DVDs and called it his best work for a long time. This was back in the fluoro-facepaint scorpion-tights Sting phase, and I distinctly remember it having a ramp that went all the way up to the level of the ring. I don't really remember if it was something both men contributed to equally or if Sting had to be lead around, I should dig that old DVD out of my shed and re-watch it.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:43
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EugeneJ posted:I have never seen Zack Ryder merch in national chain stores. This is a bad method of relevance, but Zack Ryder has 9 different toys currently available at K-Mart and he's a good year and a half past even pretending he's relevant. And I don't remember WCW merchandising Crow Sting well at all, actually. EugeneJ posted:It all went to poo poo quickly, but the nWo/Sting rivalry dominated 1997. It really didn't, though. It was a background story on television that became a focal point for a handful of run-ins and one PPV, while Hogan drew in primary feuds with all kinds of non-Sting people. MassRafTer posted:I will argue that isn't true, he had several great matches with Vader, a couple with Flair (but less than most would think) one with DDP and one with the Steiners. There's a few just below that level too, like the Angle stuff in TNA. That's about it though, and here's the problem... I was thinking of the Vader match at GAB 92, the match with Luger against the Steiners in 91, and maybe the falls count anywhere match with Cactus Jack; you could throw another Vader match or a Flair match or a Rude match in I suppose, but I recall those more as "good" than "very good." The point is that for a guy who has been around and had as many mains or co-mains as Sting has, he has very few standout matches. Red posted:I didn't watch much WCW before the nWo came along, but as far as I know, Sting was the most bankable/dependable face WCW had for several years - not necessarily the best. He wasn't dependable or bankable, though. Sting was a massive failure on top in 1990 and an even bigger failure in 1992, to the point that WCW had to take the title off him early both times.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:44
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Red posted:I think that's the easiest/most sensible explanation. Before the nWo the only really bankable face WCW had was Flair and he was mostly a heel because he was dumb. EugeneJ posted:Konnan Nope.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:44
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Sting does have a certain iconic status re: WCW- he was their homegrown face, didn't come from WWF, was their comic book hero type, always was treated as an important person even when the booking didn't match. Goldberg did usurp the main face position for a while, though.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:44
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EugeneJ posted:I have never seen Zack Ryder merch in national chain stores. They also used to sell DDP merch in national chain stores. As much as I love DDP, he does not deserve to go into the Observer HOF.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:48
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MassRafTer posted:Nope. He was inducted for being a draw in 93-94
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Sep 10, 2013 03:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:Sting does have a certain iconic status re: WCW- he was their homegrown face, didn't come from WWF, was their comic book hero type, always was treated as an important person even when the booking didn't match. Goldberg did usurp the main face position for a while, though. Sure, but what does that really mean in a historical context? WCW really isn't that big of a deal when you're writing the history of wrestling; it only existed at all for 13 years, and was only relevant in a worldwide wrestling context for half that (and that's being generous). All kinds of guys that were the top local star for a decade of a semi-national promotion that was hot for a little while aren't in the WON HOF, and many of them have a better case in other areas like quality of work than Sting.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:53
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Everyone should just list who they think the worst WON HOFer is, and then have a thunderdome. You get that guy and then pick five guys who are better than Sting and not in the HOF. That's your team and everyone votes on who's right.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:56
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EugeneJ posted:He was inducted for being a draw in 93-94 Konnan was headlining in EMLL prior (he had already lost his mask when AAA debuted) and AAA's early 90s peak was longer than one year. You'd also have to throw out his return to AAA which helped totally reshape the promotion and return it to #1 in Mexico, splitting off from AAA in the mid 90s, etc. From 92 to 95 AAA went from not existing to becoming the hottest promotion on the planet, drawing huge gates in Mexico and the US and revolutionizing lucha. There are some similarities there, but Konnan's peak sustained longer, for more matches in front of bigger crowds and he had other successful runs where Sting did not. PS: Konnan was way more culturally significant at his peak than Sting so comparing the two doesn't help Sting.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:59
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jeffersonlives posted:He wasn't dependable or bankable, though. Sting was a massive failure on top in 1990 and an even bigger failure in 1992, to the point that WCW had to take the title off him early both times. As a WWF kid who rarely watched WCW, Sting and Flair were like the only guys I ever heard about, apart from Cactus Jack or Vader now and then. Was Sting their merchandise mover, if not a ratings/crowd draw?
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Sep 10, 2013 04:00
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Red posted:As a WWF kid who rarely watched WCW, Sting and Flair were like the only guys I ever heard about, apart from Cactus Jack or Vader now and then. Was Sting their merchandise mover, if not a ratings/crowd draw? Not particularly. They tried really, really hard but the fact that there were actually no "little Stingers" in the crowd as WCW often liked to claim was a frequently hit joke point in the Observers of that period (many of which are now online).
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Sep 10, 2013 04:02
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Red posted:As a WWF kid who rarely watched WCW, Sting and Flair were like the only guys I ever heard about, apart from Cactus Jack or Vader now and then. Was Sting their merchandise mover, if not a ratings/crowd draw? WCW's merchandise arm wasn't much of a thing in the early 90s, so it's not really worth going into. Realistically merchandise didn't take off on a significant level until the Attitude era. It seems CRAZY to think about, but the amount of merchandise that Hogan could sell was a tiny fraction of what Austin could sell. Austin's peak was bigger than Hogan's, so it should be, but the amount of merchandising increased to an absurd degree. Then you look at WCW and their merchandising was garbage compared to the WWF. WCW did try really hard to market Sting to kids. It was a failure, Sting never captured the kid audience and WCW's kid audience remained pretty insignificant. It was so small that WCW at the time of the Fingerpoke of Doom WCW was ahead with every age group other than kids, but the WWF was so far ahead with kids that their ratings crushed WCW.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:07
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Sting sucks, imo
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Sep 10, 2013 04:07
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Is Ultimo Dragon in because of his J-Crown run? I don't even think that was a year long.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:10
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EugeneJ posted:Is Ultimo Dragon in because of his J-Crown run? I don't even think that was a year long. He's in because he at his peak he was an amazing and influential worker in three countries.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:11
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EugeneJ posted:Is Ultimo Dragon in because of his J-Crown run? I don't even think that was a year long. Ultimo Dragon isn't really a drawing card/star power candidate, he's in because he was one of the best and most innovative workers in the world for an extended period.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:11
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MassRafTer posted:WCW's merchandise arm wasn't much of a thing in the early 90s, so it's not really worth going into. Realistically merchandise didn't take off on a significant level until the Attitude era. It seems CRAZY to think about, but the amount of merchandise that Hogan could sell was a tiny fraction of what Austin could sell. Austin's peak was bigger than Hogan's, so it should be, but the amount of merchandising increased to an absurd degree. Then you look at WCW and their merchandising was garbage compared to the WWF. That I believe. I never recall seeing much of anything in the way of toys/shirts/etc. from WCW as a kid, and they only had a smattering of stuff during the height of the nWo. I still have a handful of Hasbro WWF figures, but the only pre-nWo WCW toy I've ever seen is a lovely rubber Craig Pittman figure my dad found on eBay for $2 that he "needed" for his office. (He's a retired Marine who met Pittman a few times, they used the same gym on base.)
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Sep 10, 2013 04:13
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EugeneJ posted:Is Ultimo Dragon in because of his J-Crown run? I don't even think that was a year long. Ultimo Dragon is in because he's one of the best in-ring performers ever. Sting is not.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:15
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I got a box of WCW trading cards in 1998. An entire box full of unopened packs. They were from 1992. I had so many cards of Doom. It was pretty cool.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:24
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rotinaj posted:I got a box of WCW trading cards in 1998. An entire box full of unopened packs. Did you find it in a mom and pop pharmacy/convenience store?
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Sep 10, 2013 04:29
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I'm going to give "Sting should go in the Hall of Fame" one shot. It's a long shot, but from where I'm sitting it's all there is. Sting is the Deadpool of wrestling. Only wrestling superfans really care about him at all, all of his most memorable moments are so-bad-it's-good-and-back-to-bad-again, and his career can single-handedly make you embarrassed to be a wrestling fan. Who went to Vader's White Castle of Fear? Sting. Who played on the beach with Davey Boy and outwitted Cheatum the Evil Midget? Sting. Whose partner is the SHOCK. MASTER? Sting. Who did Robocop rescue from the Four Horsemen? Sting. Who gave Hulk Hogan his own head in a box? Sting. Who had a six month slow-burn with Hogan, only to get a fast count victory? Sting. Who took off a Sting mask to reveal. . . Sting? Sting. Who did a shameless Joker gimmick? Sting. Who had to hold down a blitzed Jeff Hardy for the pin? Sting. Who never wrestled in WWF/E ever, attaining an aura of unwarranted mystique for that simple fact? ONLY THE STINGER. People struggle to remember one good Sting match ever. They struggle even harder to remember a match that was definitely good because of Sting. But what happened that year that someone made a fake Sting/Undertaker teaser poster? People got psyched. That's it. That's my pitch. He's the mystery science wrestler and I really dare anyone to match his list of absurd accomplishments. That's all I've got.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:31
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rotinaj posted:I got a box of WCW trading cards in 1998. An entire box full of unopened packs. I have that entire set somewhere. Weren't there two circa-1990 WCW trading card sets? I remember the one where the borders were black and gold.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:32
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm going to give "Sting should go in the Hall of Fame" one shot. It's a long shot, but from where I'm sitting it's all there is. Sting was part of the most entertaining and bizarre War Games match, where a fake Sting showed up, fooling no one except for the announcers.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:34
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Red posted:Sting was part of the most entertaining and bizarre War Games match, where a fake Sting showed up, fooling no one except for the announcers. Which wasn't even the first time that happened! See: Halloween Havoc 1990, and a match where Sting and Sid Vicious brawled to the back...after which Sting returned to the ring, having gained a few inches in height and lost quite a bit of his muscle definition. But it totally wasn't just Barry Windham in a Sting outfit, no sir. Well, not until the end of the match, anyways, when the real Sting "escaped" and the match was restarted. 
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Sep 10, 2013 04:45
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Which wasn't even the first time that happened! See: Halloween Havoc 1990, and a match where Sting and Sid Vicious brawled to the back...after which Sting returned to the ring, having gained a few inches in height and lost quite a bit of his muscle definition. But it totally wasn't just Barry Windham in a Sting outfit, no sir. Didn't TNA once have Jeff Jarrett bring out a ton of "Stings" to fight Sting? Like, Sting had to go through blonde surfer sting, dark mop-haired Sting, Crow Sting, etc., before fighting JJ himself? I remember seeing part of a clip or something, and thought it was clever and retarded at the same time. Mr.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:56
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MassRafTer posted:Did you find it in a mom and pop pharmacy/convenience store? Flea market, actually.
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Sep 10, 2013 05:04
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Red posted:Didn't TNA once have Jeff Jarrett bring out a ton of "Stings" to fight Sting? Like, Sting had to go through blonde surfer sting, dark mop-haired Sting, Crow Sting, etc., before fighting JJ himself? I remember seeing part of a clip or something, and thought it was clever and retarded at the same time. I think the multiple Sting thing happened in WCW at the last Halloween Havoc
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Sep 10, 2013 05:35
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bartok posted:I think the multiple Sting thing happened in WCW at the last Halloween Havoc That makes sense, then. One of the "Stings" was bald and looked nothing like Sting, even with makeup.
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Sep 10, 2013 06:00
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"This Sting looks like he's about 60 years old!"  That was definitely Halloween Havoc 2000. I don't think I've ever even watched that PPV all the way through, and what I did see was still one of the most  things I've ever encountered. It's probably come up once already (read the whole thread but my memory's fuzzy), but this is the PPV that featured Buff Bagwell vs. David Flair in a "First Blood DNA match", in which the father of Stacy Keibler's baby was to be determined by the candidates beating blood out of one another!
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Sep 10, 2013 12:39
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm going to give "Sting should go in the Hall of Fame" one shot. It's a long shot, but from where I'm sitting it's all there is. Kane. The counterpoint is always Kane.
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Sep 10, 2013 14:35
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I'm confused because this video is titled "Wrestling's Worst Moment Ever" but it's clearly Wrestling's Greatest Moment Ever. Because it's ROBOCOP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGUJYLDgR8k
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Sep 10, 2013 15:00
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