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In Nash's NWO themed podcast with Steve Austin he describes how the WCW "merchandising department" was basically a piece of poo poo old stock room compared to the WWF's ultra professional setup and network of licensees/vendors. When you think about it, it shows just how over the NWO was at it's height that you saw that many t-shirts because they were terrible at marketing. WWF has always had fantastic merchandise whereas WCW had mostly garbage bargain bin crap. I remember being at Dollar General as a kid and finding terrible looking Steiner Bros figures and the like. Heck, WCW even had knock-off WrestleBuddies that looked bad. Outside of the NWO t-shirt, the best WCW merchandise has been produced by WWE after buying the rights to the property. Sting doesn't deserve to the be in the Hall of Fame, but I would really like to see him wrestle Taker. For all the poo poo he gets for taking time off and not drawing money, at the very least he doesn't sound like a bad guy. That's more than a lot of shitheels. People say he "steals" Dixie's money, but gently caress that. If Dixie Carter paid me a ton of basically do nothing for business and gave me a lax schedule, I'd sure as hell do it.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:02
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haljordan posted:I'm confused because this video is titled "Wrestling's Worst Moment Ever" but it's clearly Wrestling's Greatest Moment Ever. Because it's ROBOCOP. I'm pretty sure the greatest moment's either the Shockmaster or Snitsky punting the baby.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:06
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Red posted:Didn't TNA once have Jeff Jarrett bring out a ton of "Stings" to fight Sting? Like, Sting had to go through blonde surfer sting, dark mop-haired Sting, Crow Sting, etc., before fighting JJ himself? I remember seeing part of a clip or something, and thought it was clever and retarded at the same time. They did do this in TNA as well, though I can't recall if they actually fought Sting. I just remember Anderson in the old Surfer Sting garb (maybe Eric Young was involved, too?) to poke fun at Sting.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:16
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Phenix Rising posted:They did do this in TNA as well, though I can't recall if they actually fought Sting. I just remember Anderson in the old Surfer Sting garb (maybe Eric Young was involved, too?) to poke fun at Sting. Eric Young dressed up as Muta. They actually had a pretty entertaining match as their "characters".
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Sep 10, 2013 16:42
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MassRafTer posted:This is so very wrong. If you look at the biggest Nitro ratings from the Sting in the rafters period, you can attribute some to Sting. He definitely was over. He definitely was popular and drew ratings. But the main events DID matter. That's why the biggest ratings in wrestling history were for matches, and you can see that in the Nitro ratings too. The big angles did ratings, but the big main events tended to be matches. Stuff like Luger vs Hogan or Luger vs DDP. The latter sounds ridiculous, but tension had built for a month between Luger and DDP, the only two guys really united against the nWo. You mention the gates, but Nitro didn't do its biggest gates when Sting was in the rafters, it didn't do them when he was champion, it did its biggest gates when Goldberg was champion. Sting was taking another six months off during its biggest live gate run too! His big TV matches after his return didn't light the world on fire either, nor did his PPV numbers. jeffersonlives posted:Why would you credit those houses to Sting, who was usually unadvertised, frequently was not on the shows at all, and with only a handful of exceptions didn't do anything except look vaguely foreboding in the stands when he did show up, as opposed to Hogan, Savage, Luger, Piper, Flair, Wight, The Outsiders, etc.? The biggest shock to me out of this entire conversation is that Luger was popular or considered one of the top guys in the company. I guess he was their first big free agent signing during the Monday Night War era and had to be booked that way, but I never felt like the crowd was that into him.
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Sep 10, 2013 17:08
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I always felt like the big thing with Sting was what could have been. He could have been a big star if they didn't poo poo the bed at Star Cade. But then could have beens don't get you into the Hall of Fame.
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Sep 10, 2013 17:13
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Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:The biggest shock to me out of this entire conversation is that Luger was popular or considered one of the top guys in the company. I guess he was their first big free agent signing during the Monday Night War era and had to be booked that way, but I never felt like the crowd was that into him. Luger and Page really were the key guys on the WCW side on a week-to-week basis through about fall 1997.
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Sep 10, 2013 17:41
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Here's a Sting HOF related question: Why did Foley get voted in the Observer HOF and not Sting? Foley was never really a top guy in WWF or WCW, but I'm not really familiar enough with his Japanese career to know if he drew there. I just don't really see that big of a difference between Mick and Sting.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:02
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jeffersonlives posted:Luger and Page really were the key guys on the WCW side on a week-to-week basis through about fall 1997. I guess that makes sense since I stopped watching WCW right when the NWO stuff started and didn't get back to it until Starrcade in 97, so I happened to miss his really hot period. It also reminds me that I was really confused when I came back and DDP was one of the top guys. For whatever reason I always felt like Luger was garbage, probably because he was booked that way in WWF when I started watching in 1994 (even as a super-mark 10-year-old, I got kind of tired of him getting beaten up by Ted DiBiase's stable every week and never getting the upper hand).
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Sep 10, 2013 18:15
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triplexpac posted:Here's a Sting HOF related question: Foley was a big draw in Japan, and was arguably the #2 guy during the biggest promotion on earth's biggest boom period.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:25
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triplexpac posted:Here's a Sting HOF related question: Foley was far more influential on a worldwide scale, had generally a much better body of work in terms of match quality (I hesitate to call Foley a better worker, but if you start lining up good and great matches Foley blows Sting out of the water), and really drew a lot more too when you look at it, especially since he doesn't have Sting's significant periods of apparent negative drawing power on top. While he was never per se the top guy in the promotion, those Dude Love/Austin, Mankind/Rock, and Foley/Triple H programs in 98-00 all did really, really well.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:26
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triplexpac posted:Here's a Sting HOF related question: My guess is that it's because Foley has a long list of excellent (or at least very memorable) matches that Sting does not.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:27
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triplexpac posted:Here's a Sting HOF related question: Foley was a proven name in multiple territories, had some of the hottest angles in his time period based off his athleticisim(such as it was) and his promo-work, drew one of the most decisive ratings in the big ratings battle pretty much all by himself, and is beloved by fans for many reasons. Sting drew some money because he was booked well. Dude sucks at promoes, his ringwork is fairly boring, and he has been involved in some of the worst crap going.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:31
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I guess I have a hard time separating what Mankind's "draw" is, when his top programs happened when he was booked with guys like Rock and Austin, guys who would draw well regardless. Here's some random numbers I pulled off the internet, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm not necessarily trying to stack the deck for or against Mankind, I am just picking the highest numbers from that year, some of the PPVs Mankind main evented, and whatever ones happen to fall before & after those shows to compare. 1996 IYH 6: Rage in the Cage (Hart vs Diesel) .77 IYH 7: Good Friends, Better Enemies (HBK vs Diesel) .81 IYH 10: Mind Games: (Foley vs HBK) .48 IYH 11: Buried Alive: (Foley vs Taker) .40 IYH 12: It's Time (Sid vs Hart) .35 1997 No main events that I can see 1998 IYH 24: Breakdown (Taker vs Kane vs Austin) .86 IYH 25: Judgement Day (Kane vs Taker w/ Austin as ref) .89 IYH 26: Rock Bottom (Rock vs Mankind) .78 Unforgiven: Can't find buyrate - Too bad, this one would have been interesting Over the Edge Austin vs Dude Love .58 Survivor Series (Rock vs Mankind - tourney finals) 1.30 1999: Not really a lot of Mankind main events here. Foley was in the main events of the Rumble and Summerslam, don't think it's really fair to compare those to the rest of the B-shows. Royal Rumble: (Foley vs Rock) 1.88 St. Valentine's Day Massacre (Austin vs McMahon) 1.21 Backlash: (Austin vs Rock) 1.06 Over the Edge: (Taker vs Austin) 1.24 Summerslam (HHH vs Austin vs Mankind) 1.47 2000: Royal Rumble (Mankind vs HHH street fight) 1.88 No Way Out (Mankind vs HHH Cell match) 1.2 Backlash (HHH vs Rock) 1.65 Judgement Day (HHH vs Rock) 1.05 I'm too lazy to keep going but if I'm forgetting any big PPVs that Mankind was responsible for building up let me know. I didn't mean for this to become a giant carepost, but I'm legitimately curious about this stuff.
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Sep 10, 2013 19:02
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Rodney the Piper posted:Kane. The counterpoint is always Kane. In five years we will be having this same debate about Kane, with posters who know their poo poo correctly pointing out that Kane never has good matches and was never even close to the #1 guy. quote:Sting doesn't deserve to the be in the Hall of Fame, but I would really like to see him wrestle Taker. This would be hysterical for the build, but it really needs to be a re-hash of 1997 Sting, so they spend weeks on ominous titantrons, followed by glaring at each other, followed by an endless litany of hijinks involving clones, multi-week storylines involving a hearse, and so on. The build will be several orders of magnitude better than the match, in fact.
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Sep 10, 2013 19:18
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...would WWE allow Sting to repel from the rafters?
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Sep 10, 2013 19:32
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EugeneJ posted:...would WWE allow Sting to repel from the rafters? No chance at all.
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Sep 10, 2013 19:34
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triplexpac posted:I guess I have a hard time separating what Mankind's "draw" is, when his top programs happened when he was booked with guys like Rock and Austin, guys who would draw well regardless. Foley's big trio of matches from RR 2000 through WM 2000 all did extremely well. I wouldn't give him credit for WM 2000, but that show did well and he was one of the four involved. I think some of the numbers are off but RR 2000 stood up pretty drat well given Austin wasn't on it and NWO increased over SVDM. Over the Edge 98 did way better than those figures show, and well, both of his Austin matches did very well for B show PPVs no one thought Austin had a chance of losing. On top of the drawing he also pioneered a style and was a big factor making HHH a star. Given that Dave emphasizes the criteria is POSITIVE impact on the business maybe the former (and in some minds the latter) could be considered negatives, but they wouldn't be at the time. As for Kane he's already been eligible and not gotten in.
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Sep 10, 2013 19:35
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I mean, it could be argued that Funk, Foley and Onita in FMW introduced deathmatch wrestling to Japan. Which is obviously a big deal. Gyro Zeppeli fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 19:57
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:In five years we will be having this same debate about Kane, with posters who know their poo poo correctly pointing out that Kane never has good matches and was never even close to the #1 guy. I just meant in terms of being the guy with super lovely storylines. In this regard, Sting was the early to mid 90s Kane. I personally think Kane has a better HoF argument than Sting due to longevity as a relevant guy, but I wouldn't put either in.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:01
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VogeGandire posted:I mean, it could be argued that Funk, Foley and Onita in WAR introduced deathmatch wrestling to Japan. It'd be more FMW and IWA Japan than WAR. WAR shows were more "something for everybody" than the other two (although, if you look at the famous IWA KOTDM show that Mick won, there's something for most audiences there, too).
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Sep 10, 2013 20:03
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I think you could truthfully say the HoF difference between Foley and Sting is that Foley was in enough right places at enough right times, while Sting was in too many wrong places at too many wrong times. It could just be that simple.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:07
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tzirean posted:I think you could truthfully say the HoF difference between Foley and Sting is that Foley was in enough right places at enough right times, while Sting was in too many wrong places at too many wrong times. It could just be that simple. I think more importantly, Mick was vital to more organizations than Sting. In a way, Sting's refusal to work for WWE hurt him. Mick Foley was vital to WWE's success during the attitude era, but he also helped IWA Japan, WCW, World Class (as a member of the Devastation Corporation), and ECW. And the list of guys that Mick helped "make" is a mile long. Sting didn't really make anybody a star.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:11
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I think Foley's hugely successful books certainly played a part in his HOF induction.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:12
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tzirean posted:I think you could truthfully say the HoF difference between Foley and Sting is that Foley was in enough right places at enough right times, while Sting was in too many wrong places at too many wrong times. It could just be that simple. Or perhaps you could say Foley was several times in the wrong place at the right time? Like the exact spot he took the choke slam on top of the Cell?
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Sep 10, 2013 20:12
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El Gallinero Gros posted:It'd be more FMW and IWA Japan than WAR. WAR shows were more "something for everybody" than the other two (although, if you look at the famous IWA KOTDM show that Mick won, there's something for most audiences there, too). Oops, my bad, yeah, I meant FMW.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:12
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tzirean posted:I think you could truthfully say the HoF difference between Foley and Sting is that Foley was in enough right places at enough right times, while Sting was in too many wrong places at too many wrong times. It could just be that simple. That's kind of my feeling on the subject as well. Lets say Sting jumped ship in 2000 and worked a main event program with Undertaker, Austin or Rock, I bet we'd be looking at him a lot differently.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:13
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El Gallinero Gros posted:And the list of guys that Mick helped "make" is a mile long. Sting didn't really make anybody a star.  He got Cheatum the Evil Midget over, dammit!Seriously though, at this point in his career is there anything Sting could do to salvage his HoF viability other than working a successful program for McMahon?
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Sep 10, 2013 20:14
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triplexpac posted:I guess I have a hard time separating what Mankind's "draw" is, when his top programs happened when he was booked with guys like Rock and Austin, guys who would draw well regardless. That's fair, but Sting's only main event program that didn't bomb was with Hogan, who was back in a period where he would draw well regardless.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:15
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triplexpac posted:That's kind of my feeling on the subject as well. Lets say Sting jumped ship in 2000 and worked a main event program with Undertaker, Austin or Rock, I bet we'd be looking at him a lot differently. If he jumped ship before the Invasion he probably wouldn't do well, if he jumped ship after we'd probably look at him a bit differently. After the Invasion Vince needed a new name to bring in every year and was willing to actually use WCW guys without rebranding them too much.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:16
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MassRafTer posted:If he jumped ship before the Invasion he probably wouldn't do well, if he jumped ship after we'd probably look at him a bit differently. After the Invasion Vince needed a new name to bring in every year and was willing to actually use WCW guys without rebranding them too much. Yeah I guess I should have said "If Sting jumped to WWF in 2000 and we lived in a fantasy world where Vince actually wanted to book WCW guys competitively and make piles of money" Like, even today some people get excited about the possibility of a Sting vs Taker match... imagine that when 1997 Sting is still fresh in our minds and WWF is more popular than it's ever been.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:17
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triplexpac posted:Yeah I guess I should have said "If Sting jumped to WWF in 2000 and we lived in a fantasy world where Vince actually wanted to book WCW guys competitively and make piles of money" While from a working standpoint that is obviously a superior time to do the match, remember that Undertaker had not built up this mythical streak in 2000 (or at least it was never talked about at that point). Saying "2000" reminds me how much of a stinky pile of poo poo WM2000 was (except for the tag match).
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Sep 10, 2013 20:22
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ColonelJohnMatrix posted:While from a working standpoint that is obviously a superior time to do the match, remember that Undertaker had not built up this mythical streak in 2000 (or at least it was never talked about at that point). Saying "2000" reminds me how much of a stinky pile of poo poo WM2000 was (except for the tag match). Benoit/Jericho/Angle was at least decent.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:27
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Tonight it's a Nitro double header, so come by http://psp-tv.com/r/greatestnitroinhistoryofoursport at 8 PM Eastern for WCW!
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Sep 10, 2013 23:45
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itshappening.gifquote:The third member of the heel team for the PPV won't be announced until the night of the show. Speculation is running rampant about who it is. I've been told that the deal was finalized last week for whomever it is. My feeling is that it's Hulk Hogan because a reader was working on the set of the movie Hogan is doing with Roddy Piper and said that Hogan told Piper he was asked to be the third guy and that he probably was going to do it. It wouldn't be a disappointment like most mystery partners turn out to be, and it would be the best thing for Hogan's career in some ways although there is a legit risk that the heel Hulk Hogan won't have the same PPV drawing power of the babyface version and when a guy gets 25% of the cut, he'd better have incredible drawing power or he's not worth it. He better be worth it.  quote:They came out at the beginning of the second hour through the crowd to huge babyface reactions and sat in the front row eating popcorn. Then, while a video of Rey Misterio Jr. was playing, they interrupted it and got on the house mic with tons of security and WCW both faces and heels coming out. Aside from the fact that Nash is funny as hell, the other reasons (aside from the fact they are going to get cheered no matter what and it really doesn't matter who gets cheered as long as people buy tickets to see the match), another reason the guys are getting cheered is that in every confrontation, it's two guys standing up to like 20 people, half of whom have guns, and they never back down. Later in the show they aired a segment with the police escorting Hall & Nash to their car and Nash was on a roll mocking the cops, complaining about his bad knees, saying that if all the cops pooled all their paychecks they couldn't afford a car like the one he was getting in, talking about treating the cops to donuts, etc I'll be honest, I found Nash's schtick here to be funny too.  And the afformentioned "worst finish in history" that I nominated in the old botch thread a while back. quote:Due mainly to Benoit being ferocious, the match was very good but the finish was one of the funniest on record. Renegade was on the top rope and it appeared they were going to do the same exact finish as in the opener, this time with Steve McMichael using the briefcase. However, Renegade either lost his balance or simply jumped off the top because McMichael was slow in getting in position. McMichael, trying to make the angle work, once Renegade took off, threw the briefcase in the direction of Renegade still trying to save the finish, but missed him by a mile. Amidst all the confusion, Flair put Renegade in the figure four for the win.
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Sep 11, 2013 12:10
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25%. Jesus christ, how much loving money did Hulk Hogan make in his wcw years?
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Sep 11, 2013 17:30
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:This would be hysterical for the build, but it really needs to be a re-hash of 1997 Sting, so they spend weeks on ominous titantrons, followed by glaring at each other, followed by an endless litany of hijinks involving clones, multi-week storylines involving a hearse, and so on. The build will be several orders of magnitude better than the match, in fact. I think it would be a bit awkward because usually Taker is the guy who comes out or stands somewhere, doesn't say a word and point at [opponent]. I guess he could also talk about taking Sting's soul to hell, but the way I envision it Taker and Sting stand in the ring and don't say a word for 15 minutes.
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Sep 11, 2013 17:47
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oldpainless posted:25%. Jesus christ, how much loving money did Hulk Hogan make in his wcw years? Not enough, apparently.
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Sep 11, 2013 17:54
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oldpainless posted:25%. Jesus christ, how much loving money did Hulk Hogan make in his wcw years? There was a 600K base to that too, just in case a PPV flopped.
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Sep 11, 2013 18:02
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I think we're past the point where we should be shocked that any notable wrestler and their friends were making major money for very little in WCW. But Hogan deffo had their pants down with that deal.
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Sep 11, 2013 18:09
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