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Price Check posted:I know 5 star matches aren't the be all end all, but it goes to show that Joe was one of the world's elite workers at one time. Right, but the time period was limited to perhaps 3-4 years at the outside, and it was mostly in a mid-level regional promotion. He's not really all that close and he'd need a run like that in a national or international level promotion to have even a significant case.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:27
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To tie this back into WCW, Buff Bagwell should be in the HOF if only because of his excellent top hats and entrance music.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:27
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I blanked out on the Punk stuff and the triple threat at Unbreakable, my bad. Those are great matches. Akira Taue has like 14 five star matches and he isn't in. They aren't quite the greatest metric. Someone make a hall of fame thread. The shining beacon of wrestling, WCW, doesn't deserve to be cluttered up with this discussion.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:39
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SAVE_US.CHR
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Huh, there was a WCW Hall of Fame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCW_Hall_of_Fame Edit: lol "Following the 1995 ceremony, Solie, who both inducted the wrestlers and was an influential figure in the selections, resigned from WCW in protest of Poffo's initiation,[5] feeling that management only inducted an unqualified person into the WCW Hall of Fame as a favor to Poffo's son, and one of the company's top draws, Randy Savage" Dude took HOFs real seriously
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Sep 13, 2013 17:41
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jeffersonlives posted:Right, but the time period was limited to perhaps 3-4 years at the outside, and it was mostly in a mid-level regional promotion. He's not really all that close and he'd need a run like that in a national or international level promotion to have even a significant case. True, but at some point the criteria is going to need to be adjusted to reflect the changes in the nature of the business in North America post-2001. Guys like Joe, Punk, Danielson, Low Ki, Daniels, and AJ helped revolutionize the way people thought of independent wrestling. It was no longer just a collection of ECW ripoffs, blood & guts promotions, and old-timers tours. It was where you went if you wanted to see fresh, innovative, great wrestling. In fact, it even managed to surpass Japan in that respect until the recent reemergence of NJPW. It seems like people think that these workers will be penalized for emerging at the wrong time. I think it will eventually shake out as a net benefit for the top indie stars who may not have made it in WWE.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:44
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ChampRamp posted:Someone make a hall of fame thread. The shining beacon of wrestling, WCW, doesn't deserve to be cluttered up with this discussion. But WCW was home to noted ***** match-haver Horace Hogan.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:45
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Price Check posted:True, but at some point the criteria is going to need to be adjusted to reflect the changes in the nature of the business in North America post-2001. Guys like Joe, Punk, Danielson, Low Ki, Daniels, and AJ helped revolutionize the way people thought of independent wrestling. It was no longer just a collection of ECW ripoffs, blood & guts promotions, and old-timers tours. It was where you went if you wanted to see fresh, innovative, great wrestling. In fact, it even managed to surpass Japan in that respect until the recent reemergence of NJPW. None of this is actually true, though? I mean I enjoyed watching indy shows and DVDs as much as anyone in this period, but it really in the grand scheme of things meant nothing, most of the workrate groups hemorrhaged money, and regional promotions have clearly been less important post-WCW/ECW folding than they have been at any point in territorial wrestling history.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:48
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ChampRamp posted:Someone make a hall of fame thread. Working on it now, actually.
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Sep 13, 2013 17:57
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Punchsport Pagoda > Wrestling Hall of Fame: Celebrating the Steroid Era
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Sep 13, 2013 18:01
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tzirean posted:Working on it now, actually. I'm voting for Glacier as the first PSP Hall of Fame Inductee.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:06
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Bard Maddox posted:I'm voting for Glacier as the first PSP Hall of Fame Inductee. First and only. Ok, Wrath too.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:08
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Price Check posted:Guys like Joe, Punk, Danielson, Low Ki, Daniels, and AJ helped revolutionize the way people thought of independent wrestling. It was no longer just a collection of ECW ripoffs, blood & guts promotions, and old-timers tours. It was where you went if you wanted to see fresh, innovative, great wrestling. In fact, it even managed to surpass Japan in that respect until the recent reemergence of NJPW. It's hard to compare Indies from the post-WCW sale to the territorial era, because the business is so different. It might feel like that period produced so much good stuff and so many stars, because we've been able to follow everything so closely because of the internet. It's so much more easy to read about it, buy DVDs/download matches, and find discussion forums. Is this past Indie period superior to the era that saw the creation of ECW, and the rise of guys like Eddie/Dean/Jericho/Mysterio?
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Sep 13, 2013 18:09
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jeffersonlives posted:None of this is actually true, though? I mean I enjoyed watching indy shows and DVDs as much as anyone in this period, but it really in the grand scheme of things meant nothing, most of the workrate groups hemorrhaged money, and regional promotions have clearly been less important post-WCW/ECW folding than they have been at any point in territorial wrestling history. But part of my point is that the territories system doesn't exist anymore. It's impossible to try to measure a guy like Joe or Steen against somebody from the early 80's as far as being a draw. You can't penalize a guy for something like that which he can do very little to control. Part of the argument against Sting is that he turned fans off from the product when he was the top guy. To me, that's more in the spirit of the "he's not a draw and therefore not a Hall of Famer" argument. Look, I don't even know that I'd vote for Joe today given that his peak is probably a little too short. I just don't think he should be dismissed right away. I also think that the indies (especially ROH) will get a little more respect in future voting thanks to springboarding guys like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. The more nostalgia that people attach to that era, the better it will be for guys like Joe.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:10
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Bard Maddox posted:I'm voting for Glacier as the first PSP Hall of Fame Inductee. Can we have a person in the Hall of Fame more then once?
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Sep 13, 2013 18:20
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The territories don't exist anymore because they couldn't keep up. Their stars were bought out by either WCW or WWF, and they lost their local drawing powers. Without the ability to draw and turn a profit, they went under. Today shouldn't even be any different. Did Samoa Joe draw 1300 to Philadelphia every single time? Even if he did, he is still only drawing 1300. It's not reaching a significant userbase. Why? Because the product isn't hot enough, and the masses do not care enough to force the company into growth. There are still major draws that can be created in today's day and age, and it's been proven at the very least in New Japan. Tanahashi and Okada drew the highest paid gate for Tokyo Dome in YEARS. That company is slowly rolling on an upswing, with new talent and some fresh faces on top. The whole purpose of defining a draw is a wrestler who can attract a good and sizable house to the venue, a wrestler who makes people want to buy the PPV or DVD, a wrestler who draws money into the company. A good draw does that in significant numbers. In the realm of Pro Wrestling, nobody really outside of WWE,NJPW, and AAA has really done that. You can blame it on the state of the business today, sure, but TNA has shown that it was, at least once, able to draw a (for them) fairly strong buyrate with a non-WWE Established talent (granted, facing an established WWE talent.) ROH in their peak was able to crack 10,000 PPV buys at least once. The potential is there, it's up to the booking and talent to capitalize and try to create growth. If you're unable to do that, then you simply are not a strong draw for your company.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:20
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Bigass Moth posted:First and only. A PSP Hall of Fame is not complete without Jerry Flynn and I won't hear a single word of argument. The PSP Hall of Fame ceremony also must be held in THE BLOCK.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:23
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I also think if a guy is truly at an elite work level for long enough that he would get in from the indies. I strongly believe, for example, that Danielson was a lock to get in if he had stayed on the indies at the established Bryan Danielson level through 2016 when he becomes eligible, and in many ways his WWE run may not even be a net positive yet because he really spent about three prime years not contributing a whole lot to his own case. So it's more that a Daniels or a Joe just wasn't good enough for long enough to have a significant work rate argument in lieu of having not much else going.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:25
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Inaugural PSPHOF inductee has to be the Stro. I didn't even watch Mountain State and I know that.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:31
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So is everyone in the WWE automatically a greater "draw" than anyone in the indies just by virtue of being in the WWE? They sell more t-shirts.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:34
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Halloween Jack posted:So is everyone in the WWE automatically a greater "draw" than anyone in the indies just by virtue of being in the WWE? They sell more t-shirts. Not really, but it's at least presently true that a top WWE draw is going to be more valuable than a top TNA or top ROH draw because TNA and ROH are both doing negligible business and really circling the drain. This really isn't any different from saying that it's impossible to give Sting significant drawing power credit for 1990-1993 WCW because 1990-1993 WCW was drawing poorly and Sting was on top for a period where they probably should have went out of business.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:37
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Not to reopen this can of worms but to me, someone like, say, Kevin Steen who's really popular and has good matches, is more HOF-worthy than, say, Jey Uso.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:38
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jeffersonlives posted:I also think if a guy is truly at an elite work level for long enough that he would get in from the indies. I strongly believe, for example, that Danielson was a lock to get in if he had stayed on the indies at the established Bryan Danielson level through 2016 when he becomes eligible, and in many ways his WWE run may not even be a net positive yet because he really spent about three prime years not contributing a whole lot to his own case. The fact of his training pedigree, his influence on wrestling in the independents, and the fact his talent was recognized enough that two of the three major Japanese companies (at the time) were willing to fly him over and put a title on him without a contract says a whole lot of something. Karmine posted:Not to reopen this can of worms but to me, someone like, say, Kevin Steen who's really popular and has good matches, is more HOF-worthy than, say, Jey Uso. Steen would be considered "more worthy" because he was entrusted with a Top Level position, wheras Jey Uso is an interchangable pre-lim guy. It's not a knock on his wrestling ability or talent level, but at that slot, it's near impossible to really make any kind of dent in the business.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:39
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Karmine posted:Not to reopen this can of worms but to me, someone like, say, Kevin Steen who's really popular and has good matches, is more HOF-worthy than, say, Jey Uso. Sure, but nobody's making a HOF case for Jey Uso. The in/out line for modern WWE guys looks like it's going to settle somewhere in the Edge or Randy Orton range.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:40
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jeffersonlives posted:Sure, but nobody's making a HOF case for Jey Uso. The in/out line for modern WWE guys looks like it's going to settle somewhere in the Edge or Randy Orton range. Now on top of this post, if PPV numbers and ratings somehow stay level or at least close to level with what the PPV numbers were doing with Cena, it'd absolutely lend a lot of credit toward Bryan and Orton's ability to draw, especially with such a barren undercard. These next few months are going to be very interesting and very telling without any really prior established top guys around to push PPV buys.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:42
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Rated RKO goes in no questions asked. There's like 21 world title reigns between them!
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Sep 13, 2013 18:46
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jeffersonlives posted:Sure, but nobody's making a HOF case for Jey Uso. The in/out line for modern WWE guys looks like it's going to settle somewhere in the Edge or Randy Orton range. I'd be inclined to agree. I was just responding to the question about whether being in WWE makes you, by default, a better HoF candidate.
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Sep 13, 2013 18:46
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Bigass Moth posted:First and only. 
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Sep 13, 2013 18:49
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LordPants posted:Punchsport Pagoda > Wrestling Hall of Fame: Celebrating the Steroid Era I had the same idea.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:10
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Price Check posted:But part of my point is that the territories system doesn't exist anymore. It's impossible to try to measure a guy like Joe or Steen against somebody from the early 80's as far as being a draw. You can't penalize a guy for something like that which he can do very little to control. Part of the argument against Sting is that he turned fans off from the product when he was the top guy. To me, that's more in the spirit of the "he's not a draw and therefore not a Hall of Famer" argument. An indie guy isn't going to get over based on drawing unless something unprecedented happens. If Steen were to never get a WWE shot, but he took ROH to where they were in 2007, selling out in NYC every two months, but this time in the Hammerstein Ballroom while dramatically increasing iPPV then you can say "This guy can't get a run in WWE due to his physique, but he certainly is a draw on a regional basis, on a level we haven't seen in 25 years!" If he could keep that up and combined with his in ring ability and you have a case. But let's face it, that isn't going to happen. As has been said, Bryan would have a good chance to get in if he never went to WWE. WWE probably does help him on some level even if this Orton program is mishandled because it shows he can hang on the top level. But a guy like Joe has no chance. His peak as a worker was shorter than Curt Hennig's and Hennig is not in. He's been better than Hennig was post-peak, but Hennig was able to perform on the biggest stage while Joe never has.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:20
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HOLY poo poo SHUT UP ABOUT THE HALL OF FAME. lets talk some WCW. what are some WCW era La Parka matches worth checking out? Also, does anybody have a link to the promo videos where Raven is actually a rich kid? I've heard one where sandman is his neighbor and Kanyon takes a bump into the pool but I've only seen the one where Kanyon and Raven go to the mall. WHAT A MARK
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Sep 13, 2013 19:22
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What's the deal with Big Bossman in WCW? Why'd he change his name so much?
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Sep 13, 2013 19:26
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Der-Wreck posted:HOLY poo poo SHUT UP ABOUT THE HALL OF FAME. lets talk some WCW. The Raven videos are on youtube and dailymotion, I believe on their own but they are definitely there in the full shows they aired on. As for La Parka in WCW, the best matches to check out would be his singles match with Juvi from 96 and the 8 man tag from Souled Out 98. There's also some great six man tags from December of 97 on Nitro. His best matches in WCW tended to be in multi man tags from late 97 through early 98. The LA Park vs La Parka match from Triplemania is worth seeing from a few years ago, it's one of the best AAA matches of this era.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:26
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Zack_Gochuck posted:What's the deal with Big Bossman in WCW? Why'd he change his name so much? They called him "The Boss" to capitalize on having the Big Boss Man working for them. When the WWF complained, he became the Guardian Angel. Then he turned heel and that's a lovely name for a heel, so he went back to Big Bubba Rogers, which he'd used before joining the WWF.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:32
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Zack_Gochuck posted:What's the deal with Big Bossman in WCW? Why'd he change his name so much? In his original run, he was Big Bubba Rogers, which was his gimmick everywhere before WWF. WCW in 1993 brought him in as "The Boss" with the Bossman gimmick. WWF threatened to sue, so they changed him to "The Guardian Angel," cutting a deal with that organization to make him a good cop figure but somewhat different than Bossman, at least enough to avoid an intellectual property dispute. Eventually that went south and he just went back to being Big Bubba Rogers. Then when he came back to feud with Hall and Scott Steiner during the nWo Black and White period, they were in the "real names so we're shooting" era so they billed him as Ray Traylor.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:32
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MassRafTer posted:The Raven videos are on youtube and dailymotion, I believe on their own but they are definitely there in the full shows they aired on. Also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXa8VsyJVM
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Sep 13, 2013 19:33
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jeffersonlives posted:Then when he came back to feud with Hall and Scott Steiner during the nWo Black and White period, they were in the "real names so we're shooting" era so they billed him as Ray Traylor. Yeah, I forgot he went back to his real name before returning to the WWF.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:36
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Found this fabulous quote in the July 8th 96 Observer:quote:WWF sent Mero & Sable, Undertaker & Paul Bearer and Shawn Michaels & Sunny to the New York licensing fair, and had a full blown media packet complete with a complimentary videotape and lots of space. WCW had a small bit of space as part of the Turner booth and had a one page piece of paper to hand out. Randy Savage and Glacier were there. When people asked who Glacier was, the TBS execs who had no idea just said he was one of "our biggest and most popular stars." Needless to say which group made the better impression, particularly since they were sending Sunny around the place in her cowgirl outfit and execs were following her into the booth.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:44
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Why didn't they just have Glacier do the Cryonic Kick?! Best finisher in WCW/nWo Revenge. Also that licensing fair was less than a year after Nitro debuted. Not like you want to promote your major wrestling show going up against the WWF or anything. haljordan fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 19:46
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My favorite WCW moment, which somewhat relates to the Blood Runs Cold/Glacier stuff, was when they repackaged Adam Bomb/Wrath out of the Blood Runs Cold angle into an athletic big guy role and had him rip off about a four month winning streak squashing the jobber and jobber to the star crew on television, ostensibly prepping him to be a real, homegrown challenger to Goldberg. So of course since this was WCW, as soon as Wrath started getting over, Kevin Nash casually beat him with the power bomb in 4 minutes on his way to ending Goldberg's streak at Starrcade.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:57
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How do you not know who Glacier is?!
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Sep 13, 2013 20:13
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