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I really didn't like the "oh no Eren's been crushed/impaled, better give him another pep talk" poo poo. I really prefered the way the manga did it. Also I didn't think I could be so bored watching such a crazy action sequence. Maybe I'm just just not in the right mood. edit: Also I find it weird that I kind of hate anime Eren when I'm totally okay with manga Eren. RubberLuffy fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 01:16
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I dunno, watching Eren come to the realization of "How could I forget? I REALLY HATE TITANS!" was kinda amusing, but yeah, the manga's version was pretty well done especially him grimly accepting that the world was cruel.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:26
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Everyone should visit the weird fanart thread in PYF occasionally. AoT is a popular subject.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:31
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I've decided that out of all the characters, I actively dislike Mikasa. Especially after the last anime episode. She is the devil on Eren's shoulder that goes "No, hate them all" and even when Eren could possibly break through his hatred and grow or reach possible understanding or empathy, she's there to be the force of stagnation that snatches him back to the status quo. Mostly because she's an emotional cripple that needs him as a crutch. She's the biggest coward in the whole show.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:32
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Kokoro Wish posted:I've decided that out of all the characters, I actively dislike Mikasa. Especially after the last anime episode. She is the devil on Eren's shoulder that goes "No, hate them all" and even when Eren could possibly break through his hatred and grow or reach possible understanding or empathy, she's there to be the force of stagnation that snatches him back to the status quo. Mostly because she's an emotional cripple that needs him as a crutch. She's the biggest coward in the whole show. Eh, you know the whole parents being eaten, constant threat to humanity thing... I don't think that she's all so cowardly.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:36
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Agreed posted:Edit: This is also the first manga I've ever read, maybe I'm missing a genre convention of accelerating pace or something. I don't know, it just felt like where everything leading up to Annie's Last Stand and the Wall Titan reveal was evenly paced in terms of "amount of stuff happening per chapter" and lately it's been ramped up a ton, with a lot of unexplained stuff that only the author knows about assuming the author planned it all out in advance. I'm excited and looking forward to these questions being answered, but it's definitely picked up pace a hell of a lot. The only thing that really pops out of nowhere is the bigfoot titan. Everything else is actually foreshadowed like crazy but we aren't given the information to catch it at the time. If you've blitzed through the manga go and watch the anime. There are a lot of things that are really blatant once you know what happens. Armoured Titan's design is literally Reiner as a titan, he even has the same hair. The titan trio are almost always together when reacting to important scenes and their throwaway dialogue takes new meaning as well as their reactions to Eren transforming. Wall Titans are kind of hinted at by the Wall religion implying that humanity didn't really make the walls. Mostly though, you start getting a lot of revelations very fast because we're starting to just get past a key introductory bit where we find out that there is a society of titan warriors as well as a malevolent force leading the regular titans.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:53
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Breaky posted:Eh, you know the whole parents being eaten, constant threat to humanity thing... I don't think that she's all so cowardly. That's a reason for how she is. It's not an excuse, especially when she's already almost grown once. When she thought Eren had died she began growing as a person without him after realising she could. Then he pops out of the titan and she tucks him right back under her arm-pit like the good little crutch he is. She actively runs away from growing as a person.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:01
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Kokoro Wish posted:That's a reason for how she is. It's not an excuse, especially when she's already almost grown once. When she thought Eren had died she began growing as a person without him after realising she could. Then he pops out of the titan and she tucks him right back under her arm-pit like the good little crutch he is. She actively runs away from growing as a person. I actually think that's a pretty interesting part of the series. Misaka is extremely strong physically but her only reason to being alive is just to egg Eren on to being the worst human being he could be. Most animes just have the love interest get captured by the big bad and the main character has to punch someone harder to save the day.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:06
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:I actually think that's a pretty interesting part of the series. Misaka is extremely strong physically but her only reason to being alive is just to egg Eren on to being the worst human being he could be. Most animes just have the love interest get captured by the big bad and the main character has to punch someone harder to save the day. No, it's really good. Believe me when I say I like the series because of the fact I can dislike a character so strongly for very human reasons. It hopefully speaks well of the writing. I really dislike Mikasa Ackerman, and this is a good thing. I just hope the writer can leverage that aspect of her and isn't too in love with her to deal with her flaws, because out of everyone she has the one of the greatest potentials for rewarding growth. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 03:10
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Kokoro Wish posted:She's the biggest coward in the whole show. Mikasa definitely has some serious issues surrounding Eren and hasn't had much focus on her character development since Eren's "death", but I wouldn't call her a coward. Her first family was murdered horribly in front of her eyes, and then once she was settled again, her foster mother was killed horribly right in front of her, leaving only one member of her family with her. Of course she's scared of losing that last person and having no family again. I don't think that's cowardice at all. Eren keeps getting into danger, too, and the world they live in isn't kind. It may be true that she would have to go through more character development if he wasn't around, and we got shown the start of what that would look like during the time she thought he was dead, but what's she supposed to do, stop trying to protect the last member of her family and leave him to die?
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Sep 22, 2013 03:33
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Kokoro Wish posted:That's a reason for how she is. It's not an excuse, especially when she's already almost grown once. When she thought Eren had died she began growing as a person without him after realising she could. Then he pops out of the titan and she tucks him right back under her arm-pit like the good little crutch he is. She actively runs away from growing as a person. Dang dude, there are real people out there who really do love and cherish their adopted family in the same way as Mikasa does because they've gone through situations where an adopted family is all they have. Yeah she's a little over attached but I really don't see how anything she does is objectively wrong. She lost her biological parents and was adopted by strangers unconditionally. Then she lost them too and only has Eren left as family. Yeah he's kind of a poo poo but she loves him all the same and she fights tooth and nail to ensure that what little family she has remaining is still alive. Saying that someone can only grow by relying on themselves seems a little callous if you ask me. Her life is focused on protecting Eren because he literally does everything he can to get himself killed. She can't persuade him to stop and if she lets him do whatever he'll just get himself killed anyway and that's a lesson you can't really learn from. Basically her personality and motivations are absolutely believable and justifiable from a real person perspective and the only reason why anyone would be frustrated about her character is because we know Eren has plot armour and won't die. Eej fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 03:45
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Kokoro Wish posted:I've decided that out of all the characters, I actively dislike Mikasa. Especially after the last anime episode. She is the devil on Eren's shoulder that goes "No, hate them all" and even when Eren could possibly break through his hatred and grow or reach possible understanding or empathy, she's there to be the force of stagnation that snatches him back to the status quo. Mostly because she's an emotional cripple that needs him as a crutch. She's the biggest coward in the whole show. This isn't a terribly original opinion, ignores they way she is actually depicted, and has some really creepy undertones. I'm not fond of having to make the same argument every ten pages, so check my post history if you want the details. The short version is that you've somehow forgotten all your points being addressed specifically by the comic/anime, making your negative reaction purely reflexive. That doesn't come out of nowhere, you literally are seeing her as weak and dependent in spite of explicit evidence to the contrary. This does not say nice things about you. (People tend to overlook the same evidence when defending her. We literally know what she did when Eren died. She tried to commit suicide, then realized that she was important to other people and had to live on for them. She had no trouble realizing that there is a difference between caring about someone and being self-absorbed and dependent on them, but for some reason that totally isn't misogyny I'm sure, no one seems to remember that sequence). Edit: also, she's a straight inversion of the usual cliche princess type. Normally a physically talented guy looks after a girl whose mystical powers are mankind's only hope. Reverse the genders and suddenly people are grasping at straws to rationalize their discomfort and displace it onto the offending female image in "acceptable" terms. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 05:00
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Hodgepodge posted:Edit: also, she's a straight inversion of the usual cliche princess type. Normally a physically talented guy looks after a girl whose mystical powers are mankind's only hope. Reverse the genders and suddenly people are grasping at straws to rationalize their discomfort and displace it onto the offending female image in "acceptable" terms. You are grasping like hell here. This is not what I am saying. It's not about her being a girl, not is that that I am uncomfortable with a male not being the incredibly competent one. Where the hell did that even come from? Hell, it's quite satisfying seeing all the tropes undermined in this anime. It's good to see Eren fail repeatedly despite having all this power, and it's good to see the highly physically competent one having serious emotional flaws. Gender is more important to you in this instance than it ever was to me. And it's not an original opinion because it's right there and more or less acknowledged by the character herself. Mikasa Ackerman is an emotional train-wreck, holds Eren back actively while promoting and encouraging others, like when they both prompt Armin with their trust, so she can keep on with her dependency. It's a pretty psychologically codependant relationship too. And I'm afraid I don't have a platinum account so no, I cannot check your post history. I apologise.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:39
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Kokoro Wish posted:And I'm afraid I don't have a platinum account so no, I cannot check your post history. I apologise. You can check peoples post history in this thread by clicking the ? under their name.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:42
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She holds Eren back because she doesn't want her only family left in the world to die and she doesn't know he has plot armor how is this a sign of her having an emotional flaw.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:44
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Kokoro Wish posted:You are grasping like hell here. This is not what I am saying. It's not about her being a girl, not is that that I am uncomfortable with a male not being the incredibly competent one. Where the hell did that even come from? Hell, it's quite satisfying seeing all the tropes undermined in this anime. It's good to see Eren fail repeatedly despite having all this power, and it's good to see the highly physically competent one having serious emotional flaws. Gender is more important to you in this instance than it ever was to me. mikasa cannot have any flaws she is mai waifu~
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Sep 22, 2013 05:48
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Vincent Valentine posted:You can check peoples post history in this thread by clicking the ? under their name. Oh poo poo wait no, that's true I always forget about that.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:52
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Eej posted:She holds Eren back because she doesn't want her only family left in the world to die and she doesn't know he has plot armor how is this a sign of her having an emotional flaw.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:52
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Kokoro Wish posted:You are grasping like hell here. This is not what I am saying. It's not about her being a girl, not is that that I am uncomfortable with a male not being the incredibly competent one. Where the hell did that even come from? Hell, it's quite satisfying seeing all the tropes undermined in this anime. It's good to see Eren fail repeatedly despite having all this power, and it's good to see the highly physically competent one having serious emotional flaws. Gender is more important to you in this instance than it ever was to me. The problem is the part where she confronted her dependence and came to terms with it, and then you ignored it and came to the conclusion that she is a weak coward. As did many, many other people. It is misogynistic to see a character through a lens that distorts her to look weak in spite of evidence. Sorry to hurt your feelings by calling you out on it.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:54
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Hodgepodge posted:(People tend to overlook the same evidence when defending her. We literally know what she did when Eren died. She tried to commit suicide, then realized that she was important to other people and had to live on for them. She had no trouble realizing that there is a difference between caring about someone and being self-absorbed and dependent on them, but for some reason that totally isn't misogyny I'm sure, no one seems to remember that sequence). I think you forgot she was going to kill herself because Eren died, and then decided not because straight up nobody else would remember him like she would. She had to keep "living" so Eren's memory at least could still live. When Annie kidnaps him she freaks out the same way, getting Levi injured simply because "Give him back he's mine raghghgh!" This isn't played up to be positive, it's her re-enacting the same thing as the first time she thought she "lost" him, just with more murderous rage this time. She has outright sabotaged his gear during training to try to dissuade him from being able to complete it and join the Survey Corps. She hasn't shown any interest in anyone else but Eren. She puts herself, and everyone around her, in danger just because she's so obsessed with this idea that she needs to protect Eren, and that he's the world to her. She lies when Eren loses control and attacks her in titan form because she doesn't want him to face consequences for it. She's even attacked Bert and Ernie after their confession rather than let them explain themselves, or work something out. Did you also forget that she was willing to kill other military members to protect Eren after he came out of his first titan form? This has nothing to do with her being a female character. It's just as creepy in any other form whether you change the genders up or not. Her whole existence revolves around Eren and by god she's going to do everything she can to make sure he will never, ever leave her. When there are points that she could be separated or have to deal with being alone she clings harder to Eren. That ain't healthy.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:56
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^^^ This.Hodgepodge posted:The problem is the part where she confronted her dependence and came to terms with it, and then you ignored it and came to the conclusion that she is a weak coward. As did many, many other people. I addressed that. She confronts her dependence when forced to, but the crutch pops right out of the titan hand she's right back riding that crutchy horse. Look at her in the forest of giant trees when the trap goes awry. She's frothing at the mouth over Eren Eren Eren just like she was back in Trost, except now she's colder about it. Would it be sexist if it was a man, because I don't care about her gender and I would be equally ready to call it out if it was a guy displaying such behaviours. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 06:01
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:I think you forgot she was going to kill herself because Eren died, and then decided not because straight up nobody else would remember him like she would. She had to keep "living" so Eren's memory at least could still live. Odd that you leave out the part where she realizes that her grief is getting other people killed, which is a big part of why she moves forward. And you have to be in pretty heavy spin mode to see holding a dead loved one in your memory, textbook healthy coping with grief, against her. quote:When Annie kidnaps him she freaks out the same way, getting Levi injured simply because "Give him back he's mine raghghgh!" This isn't played up to be positive, it's her re-enacting the same thing as the first time she thought she "lost" him, just with more murderous rage this time. She also holds back on Bert and Ernie, which saves their lives. She chides herself for not killing them, because they were a threat, but she had trouble seeing them as enemies so suddenly. And her despair is not hers alone at this point: the whole point of that sequence is that Eren is now mankind's greatest hope and the legion's #1 priority. By the end of the chapter, the entire legion is brought into line with her determination. It is not portrayed as an inappropriate reaction. quote:She has outright sabotaged his gear during training to try to dissuade him from being able to complete it and join the Survey Corps. She hasn't shown any interest in anyone else but Eren. She puts herself, and everyone around her, in danger just because she's so obsessed with this idea that she needs to protect Eren, and that he's the world to her. She lies when Eren loses control and attacks her in titan form because she doesn't want him to face consequences for it. She's even attacked Bert and Ernie after their confession rather than let them explain themselves, or work something out. Did you also forget that she was willing to kill other military members to protect Eren after he came out of his first titan form? Most of this happens before most of the character development I am talking about. quote:This has nothing to do with her being a female character. It's just as creepy in any other form whether you change the genders up or not. Her whole existence revolves around Eren and by god she's going to do everything she can to make sure he will never, ever leave her. When there are points that she could be separated or have to deal with being alone she clings harder to Eren. That ain't healthy. You're twisting your interpretation of a female character who the author explicitly enjoys using to undermine sexist tropes in order to make her look weak at every opportunity. Get this: her girly parts influence how you see her, and that influences your reaction to her. When you defend that reaction as "having nothing to do with her being a female character" without questioning it, you defend the parts of that reaction that are sexist. You can say "I'd find this just as creepy if she was a guy," but we don't have Alternate Universe You's reaction to check that against. We have your reaction. edit: quote:I addressed that. She confronts her dependence when forced to, but the crutch pops right out of the titan hand she's right back riding that crutchy horse. Look at her in the forest of giant trees when the trap goes awry. She's frothing at the mouth over Eren Eren Eren just like she was back in Trost, except now she's colder about it. The point is that Isayama went to great lengths to show that she could move on when given a chance, especially since from there on her development is colored by Eren actually being the #1 priority of the legion. And once again, falling back on your reaction "if she was a man" means nothing. Of all the flawed characters in the cast, you singled out the strongest woman to attack. That is what I have evidence of to examine. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 06:12
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Kokoro Wish posted:Mikasa Ackerman is an emotional train-wreck, holds Eren back actively while promoting and encouraging others, like when they both prompt Armin with their trust, so she can keep on with her dependency. Is she really holding Eren back? I mean, mostly what she seems to be trying to hold back all the time is his imminent death, due to all the peril he gets into. You gave an example earlier of how she was holding him back badly in the latest anime episode, but I've seen that one just now and the scene you must have been talking about, and what she was doing was mostly trying to persuade him to fight so that he wouldn't die or be kidnapped and other people's deaths could be prevented. If she was really the devil on his shoulder stopping him from breaking the status quo and gaining further understanding and empathy like you said, it wouldn't have done him a lot of good if the status quo was him being dead. (Although I think that in that episode, Armin and Jean also tried very hard to get Eren to fight too.) Horrible Smutbeast posted:She has outright sabotaged his gear during training to try to dissuade him from being able to complete it and join the Survey Corps. There's no proof whatsoever that she did that. Horrible Smutbeast posted:She hasn't shown any interest in anyone else but Eren. That's not true either. She's genuinely friends with Armin. She loved her parents. She loved Carla enough that she stayed and tried to free her rather than running away with Eren the way Carla was begging her to. She also cares to some extent about her comrades - remember the way she criticised herself for having failed to truly take on the role of leading them? And when Bert and Reiner pulled their big reveal, she hesitated when she attacked them, which led them to be able to escape. Heck, when the rich guy with the cart blocked the gate and was putting everyone in danger, Mikasa stepped in. She was nice to the little girl there, too. The idea that Mikasa is heartless and cares for nobody except Eren ever is simply not true. Horrible Smutbeast posted:She puts herself, and everyone around her, in danger just because she's so obsessed with this idea that she needs to protect Eren Really? For one clear example to the contrary, during the section where Eren was out of it in Titan form and the boulder was needed to seal the gap, Armin got Mikasa to leave him to sort Eren out, so that Mikasa could go and help other people. If she was totally obsessed in the way you say, she wouldn't have left. In any case, Eren needs a hell of a lot of protecting. Think of the team of skilled veterans who got squished by Annie trying to protect him. Mikasa thought all through their training that she'd go where Eren was because he needed her to protect him, and what happens the first day that Eren goes into combat? He loses a leg and then gets eaten by a titan in no time at all. It's not even the only time he's been eaten by a titan in the series. She was right. Horrible Smutbeast posted:She's even attacked Bert and Ernie after their confession rather than let them explain themselves, or work something out. The broke the wall and killed vast amounts of people, and were for example responsible for the death of her foster mother and Armin's parents. She had no reason whatsoever to believe that sitting down to tea and biscuits for a chat with them was going to work. Annie was working with those two before, and Eren and Armin's attempts to sit down and talk things out turned out badly too. That said, she did hesitate when she attacked them...because although she knew what she had to do, she still flinched away from killing people she knew. Van Dine fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 06:16
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Mikasa is a teenaged girl who suffers from psychological trauma due to witnessing the violent death of her parents as a child and then later watching her adoptive mother get eaten alive. Eren is more than just her sole remaining family member, he also represents stability, in that as long as he is alive, she still has family that she can love and trust. If you can understand this simple concept, all of her decisions, whether flawed or not, make complete sense. The idea that she has to "grow past" her dependence on Eren to mature as a person is ridiculous and I hope you guys never deal with people who have been traumatized in real life.Horrible Smutbeast posted:Did you also forget that she was willing to kill other military members to protect Eren after he came out of his first titan form? This part is my favourite. If someone was trying to kill your sibling and you threatened that person with a knife, you are suddenly "really creepy"? This isn't "pull a knife on a dude who looked funny at your sister" territory, this is "my brother is about to die and I'm not going to go down without a fight". Also please remember that Reiner and Bert were literally responsible for almost a quarter million deaths. To put in perspective, they actually killed as many people directly and indirectly as the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:34
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Eej posted:Mikasa is a teenaged girl who suffers from psychological trauma due to witnessing the violent death of her parents as a child and then later watching her adoptive mother get eaten alive. Eren is more than just her sole remaining family member, he also represents stability, in that as long as he is alive, she still has family that she can love and trust. If you can understand this simple concept, all of her decisions, whether flawed or not, make complete sense. The idea that she has to "grow past" her dependence on Eren to mature as a person is ridiculous and I hope you guys never deal with people who have been traumatized in real life. Co-dependence is not a good thing. At least, it's not good if the person remains that way for the rest of their life.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:38
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As for the Mikasa discussion. I think it's important to note here that Mr. Isayama is a pretty decent writer, he's taken the positive and negative traits of characters and given them a pretty realistic consequence. Let's look at three of Eren's positive traits that lead to negative consequences. 1. Eren is extremely loyal to his friends. As a consequence he has a hard time fighting Annie, he throws a fight he's winning and has to be talked into it the second time. He actively tries to delude himself into thinking she's not the female titan. 2. Eren believes in his friends. This belief in his friends leads to Levi's squad getting horribly slaughtered by Annie. Their lack of faith in him contributed too. 3. Eren's deep friendship and passion makes him go the extra mile for them, but these deep feelings lead to him being hurt more than anyone else so far by Berthold and Reiner's betrayal. Armin and Mikasa's family were both killed directly because of their actions, but you don't see them going off the deep end. Mikasa's camaraderie prevent her from killing them until after they kidnap Eren. Armin is actively throwing away his friendship with both of them- but only for survival. Jean and Connie are hurt, but they want to talk them down. All of those are actually some pretty well thought out consequences from otherwise positive traits. I think down the road we'll either see some independence from Mikasa or a downfall due to her overprotective and intense focus on Eren. I think Mr. Isayama knows very well that Mikasa isn't mentally healthy.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:55
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Genocyber posted:Co-dependence is not a good thing. At least, it's not good if the person remains that way for the rest of their life. I agree, but she's not really fully co-dependent either. For example, she spent a lot of time trying to call Eren out on his dumb crap and stopping him from doing stupid things (ie joining the military). On the other hand she didn't say anything about Eren trying to kill her in titan form either. You could argue that covering for your brother is co-dependent or just "a thing family and friends do for one another when they're in a pinch". I would argue from a more general perspective that a willingness to sacrifice of oneself to aid another (or others) is probably a more desirable personality trait in the world they live in, though.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:57
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Genocyber posted:Co-dependence is not a good thing. At least, it's not good if the person remains that way for the rest of their life. This is a misapplication of the term. Co-dependence is when one partner covers for the effects of the other's addiction and is in turn dependent on their partner's need for them in order to function as a substitute for a genuinely reciprocal emotional bond. It is absolutely the worst goon armchair philosophy to apply the term outside of a clinical context, and frankly the way goons tend to apply it indicates some really unhealthy ideas about relationships.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:58
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I think all the characters are equally flat and one-note. That's okay with me, because the lure here isn't the ~Rich Character Drama~, it's the fascinating plot full of twists and turns and the superbly drawn hyperkinetic action. Mikasa is a titan-killing Terminator, Eren is Luffy or Ichigo in a world gone terribly wrong, everyone else plays their respective roles. That's fine! I really like seeing a female character in such an awesome role, but she's not any more or less "deep" than anyone else. EDIT: I think that the reason why both sides are accusing the other of "grasping at straws" is because both sides are grasping at straws here. It's like arguing over whether or not a puddle on the floor is deep or not. And, if you want an example of truly rich, complex, empowered female characters, one need only look to Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Nausicaa and Kushana are some of the best-written female characters in any manga I've ever read, and they're truly inspiring characters who play an active role in shaping the destiny of their world. No one in AoT can really compare to their growth and richness as characters. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 14:40
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Hodgepodge posted:You're twisting your interpretation of a female character who the author explicitly enjoys using to undermine sexist tropes in order to make her look weak at every opportunity. Get this: her girly parts influence how you see her, and that influences your reaction to her. When you defend that reaction as "having nothing to do with her being a female character" without questioning it, you defend the parts of that reaction that are sexist. Could you stop this? I mean really, if we wanna discuss Mikasa as a character throwing out "you're sexist if you don't like her!" everytime someone disagrees isn't an argument. This isn't tumblr. You're not even discussing her character at this point, you're just covering your ears and crying about sexism when it isn't. That doesn't invalidate people's issues with the character so far and not liking the lead female character doesn't make anyone a sexist automatically. All you're doing is moving the topic away from her so people have to defend themselves against accusations of sexism rather than actually discuss the topic at hand. Stop it. Eej posted:This part is my favourite. If someone was trying to kill your sibling and you threatened that person with a knife, you are suddenly "really creepy"? This isn't "pull a knife on a dude who looked funny at your sister" territory, this is "my brother is about to die and I'm not going to go down without a fight". Yeah, but this was after he turned into a giant monster that's known for eating people. It's quite understandable why they're all scared of him but she goes into creepy territory of "I'll kill all of them just to save you" even when "all of them" may refer to people she's been in training with for years. I think Mikasa is a really interesting character for this sort of thing though, regardless if it's a positive or negative trait. She's chosen to follow Eren where ever his titan form takes him despite not being a titan herself. Out of the whole cast, her, Bert and Ernie, Ymir and Armin are probably the most believable teen characters in a manga I've read in a long time. Van Dine posted:There's no proof whatsoever that she did that. It was heavily implied that she was the one to sabotage his gear. I forget if I read it in an interview, but yeah, she might have done it because she just didn't want him to go frontlines and die. Which is what happened to him, whoops. It was her way of stopping him when he refused to give it up. If I'm wrong than you can disregard all this smoke I'm blowing out my rear end over it. Fair enough. I meant more in the sense that after they're done training she really only values Eren, but I guess she does care for Armin and the squad in a way too. I will disagree on the Bert and Ernie thing though, simply because they were trying to peacefully take Eren to their village to explain why they were fighting this war to begin with. They seemed to be trying to take a different route than Annie's violent attempts but Mikasa interrupted and lunged. It was probably the right decision to make but it still would have been nice if there was some sort of "well, I guess Eren and I will go see what's up" sorta thing. I suppose it might not have fit the characters but they wouldn't be in such a hosed up situation in chapter 49 now if they had focused on figuring out the titan's plan instead of kill all titans. They could have basically helped reach a peaceful agreement or figure out what they're fighting for, but KILL ALL TITANS RAGH!
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Sep 22, 2013 14:44
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:They could have basically helped reach a peaceful agreement or figure out what they're fighting for, but KILL ALL TITANS RAGH! I'm pretty indifferent to most of this debate, but this is pretty silly. If Mikasa had been -more- perfect as a killing machine, they wouldn't have been in such a messy situation in chapter 49 because Bert and Reiner would no longer have heads. Reiner and Bert were delusional if they ever believed dialogue was possible after what they did to Mikasa and Eren's hometown, which is something they were told about by Eren. You're unfairly forcing the reader's detachment on characters who have every reason to hate these people.
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Sep 22, 2013 15:18
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Lestaki posted:I'm pretty indifferent to most of this debate, but this is pretty silly. If Mikasa had been -more- perfect as a killing machine, they wouldn't have been in such a messy situation in chapter 49 because Bert and Reiner would no longer have heads. Reiner and Bert were delusional if they ever believed dialogue was possible after what they did to Mikasa and Eren's hometown, which is something they were told about by Eren. You're unfairly forcing the reader's detachment on characters who have every reason to hate these people. That's why I said it was understandable and that it was the right thing to do, I just wished that they could have tried to hash things out or at least listen to them. Don't forget that Bert is suffering from a split in personality because of the things he's done too, so he's not the most stable person. It might have been his last ditch attempt at getting Eren to listen to him so he doesn't have to smash another wall down and kill even more people. Mikasa was totally justified attacking them knowing they were responsible for the last 2 walls falling. It's one of those things that if the author keeps writing Mikasa and Eren to just blindly kill everything without actually wanting to compromise or stop to consider their options to end the war then I'm going to find it getting old very fast.
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Sep 22, 2013 15:26
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Eren did listen to them, on both occasions. When Reiner and Bert first admitted they were the titans, Eren tried to convince them they were just tired instead of going nuts and killing them, then Reiner starts charging towards him with every intention to transform and Mikasa slices both of them up then the fight ensues. Then even after Eren is kidnapped he decides that instead of going berserk it's better to listen to them and try to get an idea of what they're doing and any information he can gather, then Reiner starts talking about getting a promotion and it pisses Eren off that he's acting like no big thing just happened. Then after they have this giant argument what do the two of them have to say? Bert says he feels sorry for Eren and Reiner asks what he wants from them. Eren gave them two different opportunities to explain themselves, they didn't and still haven't. Eren has no reason to give a poo poo about what they have to say after what they've done and he doesn't suffer any as a character for it. And what are you talking about ending the war? They've never had that opportunity, even Bert and Reiner's offer was complete poo poo from any perspective because only they wouldn't break it down. What's to stop any other titan people from deciding they want to break down the wall and gently caress over humanity? This war wasn't started to remain inside the walls, it was started so humans could end the threat of titans and live safely outside of the walls, from Eren's perspective anyways. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 15:54
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Sex_Ferguson posted:Eren did listen to them, on both occasions. When Reiner and Bert first admitted they were the titans, Eren tried to convince them they were just tired instead of going nuts and killing them, then Reiner starts charging towards him with every intention to transform and Mikasa slices both of them up then the fight ensues. Then even after Eren is kidnapped he decides that instead of going berserk it's better to listen to them and try to get an idea of what they're doing and any information he can gather, then Reiner starts talking about getting a promotion and it pisses Eren off that he's acting like no big thing just happened. Then after they have this giant argument what do the two of them have to say? Bert says he feels sorry for Eren and Reiner asks what he wants from them. Eren gave them two different opportunities to explain themselves, they didn't and still haven't. Eren has no reason to give a poo poo about what they have to say after what they've done and he doesn't suffer any as a character for it. I'll have to go re-read the chapter when I get a chance since I guess I'm remembering things wrong. I'll refrain from posting about it further until I re-read it so I don't make a bigger rear end out of myself. Though, that sequence did give us the hilarious line from Eren that went something like "I better keep my cool and try to figure things out!" and within a page or two it goes to "I'm going to kill you!!!"
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Sep 22, 2013 16:16
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:Could you stop this? I mean really, if we wanna discuss Mikasa as a character throwing out "you're sexist if you don't like her!" everytime someone disagrees isn't an argument. This isn't tumblr. You're not even discussing her character at this point, you're just covering your ears and crying about sexism when it isn't. That doesn't invalidate people's issues with the character so far and not liking the lead female character doesn't make anyone a sexist automatically. Actually, I am discussing the topic at hand. A lot of people have had a similar reaction to Mikasa, one that is only possible to arrive at through a very selective reading, and that reading which has sexist implications. You aren't saying "let's discuss Attack on Titan!," you are saying "let's not discuss my own reaction to Attack on Titan because it makes me uncomfortable to do so." That said, it isn't that I think you are some horrible monster. The nerd hive mind shits out some really terrible arguments, and a lot of them are pretty innocuous if they aren't put into context. But if I just say ho hum I think you've missed some details etc, all I'd really be doing is downplaying the argument. All that would honestly accomplish is to insult your intelligence and maturity by assuming that you're too fragile for an argument that requires a little self-examination and perspective to process. I mean, I explain gender stuff to my kid, albeit in age-appropriate terms. Do you really want me to treat you as less than a child? Why would you invite that sort of contemptuous treatment? Anyhow, move past your horror at the suggestion that you might not be a moral paragon in every second of your free time and process the flaws in that particular line of interpretation, and then we might also be able to have a discussion about Mikasa's characterization that takes the nuance actually present in the story into account. It is already interesting that Mikasa's relationship with Eren coincides with the practical course of action. But I can't see Isayama not complicating that further. Especially if Annie comes back into play. Did Bert ever even pick up on her liking Eren? And Jean doesn't seem content to accept Mikasa's outlook. Even sans-Titans, social dynamics alone are going to complicate her priorities down the line. And romantic feelings are looking to shape events in a big way. Look at all that's happened in the last few chapters because Christa makes a few people feel all warm and fuzzy in their pants. This is a cast of sixteen year olds, after all. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 22, 2013 17:04
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The  is strong in this one.(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 22, 2013 17:10
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I hope the secret in Eren's dad's basement is Mikasa's cheerful, happy-go-lucky twin sister, Sukasa.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:52
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Genocyber posted:The I prefer to think of it as  Take that as you will.
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Sep 22, 2013 18:18
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Fister Roboto posted:I hope the secret in Eren's dad's basement is Mikasa's cheerful, happy-go-lucky twin sister, Sukasa. They are actually the same person. 
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Sep 22, 2013 18:54
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All this talk about Mikasa is good and all but the anime thread has started speculating about who the Colossal Titan and Armoured Titan are and I can't stop laughing. As for how the anime/season ends, it should definitely be the big reveal just so I can read the reactions in the anime thread. It's for the good of mankind.
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Sep 22, 2013 19:06
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