|
So, it appears the plans for replacing the I-5 bridge between Oregon and Washington may be revived. The major differences are the so-called "Oregon Only" method of state funding*, with a minimum of interchange upgrades on the Washington side. This is meant to cut down on the final cost somewhat, and obviates the need for Washington funding, which is how the original plans were stopped. It doesn't seem to be a very good design, from a lay perspective. I'm wondering, what all is involved in seismic reinforcement? Is it feasible to do that to a heavily-used bridge with a section that's a hundred years old? How long would that extend its lifespan? *: This will likely fail in the state capitol... if it's even brought up during the special session, which is uncertain. I'm sick of the way that this whole affair has been dragged out; if bridge fixes and a light rail extension into Vancouver aren't going to happen, acting as though it might and raising people's hopes is just too cruel.
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 09:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 04:01 |
|
|
http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/americas-most-dangerous-bridges/18 Wasn't surprised to see the Aetna Viaduct on there in 2 places. Also, Cichlidae you DOT guys ready to kill that 9/11 Truth graffiti rear end in a top hat yet?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 19:06
|
|
|
I was wondering when somebody would bring that guy up.  They've moved beyond overpasses and are now on to signs. I saw it pop up on a 91 NB sign around Rocky Hill this weekend. I'm about ready to kill him for ruining perfectly good road signs! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 21:40
|
|
|
There's been a glut of those where I live, but there's mostly all chalk. Sometimes they're big sheets of cardboard with felt pen messages on them hung along the highway. It's all 9/11 truther stuff, chemtrails, and all often related to jesus christ being re-born in some swiss village. Sometimes the highway ones are put over top of actual signs, but the city just removes them without much effort. We had almost no rain all summer so all the chalk poo poo was around for a very long time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 22:22
|
|
|
It's worse in Connecticut. This ain't chalk; people are spraypainting actual overpasses and big green signs with this stuff.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 23:25
|
|
|
So how about that bridge in Wisconsin? http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/26/us/wisconsin-bridge-sagging/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews This should be fun for a lot of people...
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 00:14
|
|
|
Cichlidae, how do you feel about roundabouts? Especially large multi-lane ones? I had my first experience with them after moving to the east coast recently, and I think they're Goddamn deathtraps.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 00:45
|
|
|
eriktown posted:Cichlidae, how do you feel about roundabouts? Especially large multi-lane ones? I had my first experience with them after moving to the east coast recently, and I think they're Goddamn deathtraps. Roundabouts are the best thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 01:38
|
|
|
Armacham posted:So how about that bridge in Wisconsin?  Not great to have a pier settle 2 feet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 02:18
|
|
|
kefkafloyd posted:It's worse in Connecticut. This ain't chalk; people are spraypainting actual overpasses and big green signs with this stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGLqnzSMc5g Yeah it's real-deal graffiti. It looks like there's a small crew of taggers that went off the truther reservation and are putting them up everywhere. There's some sweet art, but it should be going up on a graffiti wall not a freeway overpass. http://www.wfsb.com/story/22902255/dot-officials-trying-to-stop-911-graffiti-on-bridges-overpasses--------OK Kaal fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 02:51
|
|
|
eriktown posted:Cichlidae, how do you feel about roundabouts? Especially large multi-lane ones? I had my first experience with them after moving to the east coast recently, and I think they're Goddamn deathtraps. Well, considering the man designs them, I'd say he's probably pro-roundabout. I think the thread in general is pro-roundabout. They are typically very safe (for motorists, not always for pedestrians and cyclists), but Americans just aren't used to them in general. Roundabouts in Europe are safe because the majority of drivers are comfortable with them. It will take a long time before that's the case in the US, but I hope the gradual shift to roundabouts here continues.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:05
|
|
|
Kakairo posted:Well, considering the man designs them, I'd say he's probably pro-roundabout. Tampa's installing them all over the place, and it's done wonders for traffic. Here's our latest one, replacing an awkward intersection between 21st/22nd St and 22nd/23rd Ave in Tampa. The monument in the middle signifies the 100-year anniversary and revitalization of a neighborhood in East Tampa (Belmont Heights).  Oh, and we've got some creative ones to the north, in Pasco County. 
Varance fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Sep 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:08
|
|
|
That said, not all designers seem to really "get" them:     Yes, every single approach to that roundabout has a stop sign. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:15
|
|
|
GWBBQ posted:Looks like Metro North is hosed once again. Con Edison feeder cable into the Mt. Vernon substation blew out for unspecified reasons in addition to a feeder being out of service. Electric train service between Grand Central and Stamford is out, Stamford to New Haven is limited service only, system is operating on 1/3 capacity until further notice ("days to weeks" according to the governor.) I-95 and the Parkway are going to be even worse than usual for the next few days to weeks. It's really REALLY bad. All my jobs on I-95 are put on hold until further notice; even late at night, we don't want to do anything to cut the capacity. Doesn't help that there are intermittent shutdowns of I-84. At least the West Rock tunnel on 15 isn't closed yet. Hedera Helix posted:I'm wondering, what all is involved in seismic reinforcement? Is it feasible to do that to a heavily-used bridge with a section that's a hundred years old? How long would that extend its lifespan? We don't like to put life expectancies on bridges, and seismic refits won't necessarily improve a bridge's lifespan. Bridges are very much a 'weakest link' kinda thing. As for the refit, you can put some good elastomeric pads under its bearings, remove static indeterminacy, and add better spiral rebar to your columns. Someone who's taken a seismic engineering class would probably know more stuff. Mighty Horse posted:http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/americas-most-dangerous-bridges/18 The Aetna Viaduct is awful, and I successfully begged to get off the replacement committee. I have too much other poo poo to deal with to work on an impossible project like that. If you ever get a chance to look at the echograms we did of the deck, you'll be shocked (or not) to find out it's less whole than a sponge. As for the graffiti folks, I really wonder how they're doing it. Some of the sites are accessible, like the back of the overhead VMS (there is an access ladder and catwalk), but on some of those overpasses... it has to be someone with really good safety equipment, or someone REALLY stupid. Probably the latter, given their subject matter. Armacham posted:So how about that bridge in Wisconsin? Oof... that's not going to be a cheap fix. At least it's an approach span instead of the main one. The arch itself will probably stay up while they're repairing the approach.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:31
|
|
|
A few more from Tampa... The team that designed the new Connerton subdivision, about 20 miles north of Tampa, went hog wild.  Can't forget the new commercial park in FishHawk, either. 
Varance fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:31
|
|
|
eriktown posted:Cichlidae, how do you feel about roundabouts? Especially large multi-lane ones? I had my first experience with them after moving to the east coast recently, and I think they're Goddamn deathtraps. The large ones you're seeing here probably aren't roundabouts; they're rotaries, traffic circles, whatever you'd like to call them, and although some have been repainted into ersatz turbo roundabouts, they really have very little in common. Roundabouts are low-speed, small, yield-controlled circles. The multi-lane ones should really be channelized turbo roundabouts as opposed to the older 2-lane monstrosities. Kakairo posted:Well, considering the man designs them, I'd say he's probably pro-roundabout. Worth noting that American engineers can't really design roundabouts well yet, either. I'd say we're about where Europe was a decade or two ago. Around 2020, we'll realize that the center island needs squared corners and the circulating roadway could really use raised lane separators. Haifisch posted:That said, not all designers seem to really "get" them: Great example. Some DOTs are hopelessly insular. Even attending a free webinar once in a while can teach you so much about roundabout design.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:37
|
|
|
Haifisch posted:That said, not all designers seem to really "get" them: Somewhere, the guy who wrote the section of the MUTCD on signing roundabouts is drinking himself into a stupor over those signs. It's like they were having trouble with people using the roundabouts and they just kept throwing more poo poo at it.  :How about a stop sign! No, now they're turning left - we'll add one way signs! And Right Turn Only signs in the left lane! What do you mean now people are getting in the left lane to take the first exit of the roundabout? gently caress it, let's put the signal back in.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:39
|
|
|
Haifisch posted:That said, not all designers seem to really "get" them: The two biggest roundabouts here have stop signs at the approaches. Is this actually not a good design? Cichlidae posted:We don't like to put life expectancies on bridges, and seismic refits won't necessarily improve a bridge's lifespan. Bridges are very much a 'weakest link' kinda thing. As for the refit, you can put some good elastomeric pads under its bearings, remove static indeterminacy, and add better spiral rebar to your columns. Someone who's taken a seismic engineering class would probably know more stuff. That's unfortunate, I was under the impression that it did. Oh well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 03:45
|
|
|
Cichlidae posted:As for the graffiti folks, I really wonder how they're doing it. Some of the sites are accessible, like the back of the overhead VMS (there is an access ladder and catwalk), but on some of those overpasses... it has to be someone with really good safety equipment, or someone REALLY stupid. Probably the latter, given their subject matter. There's footage of them doing a couple of the overpasses in the truther video I posted, they're just inching out along ledges at night while traffic roars underneath them. It's dangerous as hell and could easily get themselves and some poor driver killed, but it looks quite doable. If there isn't a ledge, they could simply be doing it by roping down. You can make a Swiss seat with rope and a carabiner, and it'd be safe enough for this sort of thing. If these guys were Greenpeace or ELF then I wouldn't have any doubt that they'd be doing it that way. But I don't think that truthers really have the coordination for a stunt like that. Kaal fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Sep 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
Cichlidae posted:The large ones you're seeing here probably aren't roundabouts; they're rotaries, traffic circles, whatever you'd like to call them, and although some have been repainted into ersatz turbo roundabouts, they really have very little in common. See, now that sounds like what they tried to do to our 2-lane traffic circle/roundabout (I still don't quite grasp the difference). They added all the lane markings, and a bunch of signs that didn't make sense because our circle has 5 exits for some reason. Then the plows scraped all the paint off, and it's back to the free for all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 04:55
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Hedera Helix posted:The two biggest roundabouts here have stop signs at the approaches. Is this actually not a good design? A roundabout is supposed to be free-flowing. The entering driver should yield to traffic in the circle. In other words, if there is no one in the circle, you can just enter it, and not stop. It's good for traffic flow, fuel consumption, noise etc. Stop signs in general just feel like a suboptimal compromise, thrown in when you can't afford a signal, or visibility is too limited for a yield sign.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 12:05
|
|
|
Square centre islands??
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 16:50
|
|
|
Cichlidae posted:
Oh, all you have to do is get stuck in traffic going WB right around the asylum ave exit and look over....shame there isn't some sort bypass around the city... You would think engineers would have come up with that at one point. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 17:58
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Square centre islands?? I assumed Cichlidae was talking about something like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turbo_roundabout_(left-hand_side_drive)_by_Zureks.svg (As opposed to literally putting a square in the middle of a roundabout.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 18:03
|
|
|
Mighty Horse posted:Oh, all you have to do is get stuck in traffic going WB right around the asylum ave exit and look over....shame there isn't some sort bypass around the city... You would think engineers would have come up with that at one point. It's almost as if they had built some giant, expensive thing in expectation that such a plan would come to fruition.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:I assumed Cichlidae was talking about something like this: Yeah notice that he said 'squared corners', which are a bit different from the above example as well. This is the latest and greatest standard in turbo roundabout design here in the NL (we both invented them and have to my knowledge been applying them at the largest scale): 
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 19:24
|
|
|
Holy poo poo that's great and seems super intuitive to use.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 19:28
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Holy poo poo that's great and seems super intuitive to use. Koesj posted:This is the latest and greatest standard in turbo roundabout design here in the NL (we both invented them and have to my knowledge been applying them at the largest scale):
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 20:28
|
|
|
I believe Cichlidae said the trees and shrubs and stuff were put there intentionally, specifically to disrupt that line of sight. Cars coming from the far side of the roundabout are so far away that you shouldn't be worrying about yielding to them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 20:39
|
|
|
I don't see them in my country though and I think they're prohibited (not sure though).
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 21:21
|
|
|
They sometimes put ugly pieces of modern art in the middle of roundabouts in the Netherlands, I don't know if that counts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 21:58
|
|
|
Hedera Helix posted:The two biggest roundabouts here have stop signs at the approaches. Is this actually not a good design? No no no no no. If it's got stop signs, it's not a roundabout. Bigness is also not a good roundabout characteristic. PittTheElder posted:See, now that sounds like what they tried to do to our 2-lane traffic circle/roundabout (I still don't quite grasp the difference). They added all the lane markings, and a bunch of signs that didn't make sense because our circle has 5 exits for some reason. Then the plows scraped all the paint off, and it's back to the free for all. That's pretty much what happened with the US 5 / MA 57 rotary in West Springfield, except that the contractor must've used a rumble strip machine to put in his pavement marking grooves, because the 'grooves' ended up half an inch deep, halfway filled back up with epoxy. From what I hear, they had to re-pave. Mighty Horse posted:Oh, all you have to do is get stuck in traffic going WB right around the asylum ave exit and look over....shame there isn't some sort bypass around the city... You would think engineers would have come up with that at one point. kefkafloyd posted:It's almost as if they had built some giant, expensive thing in expectation that such a plan would come to fruition. You guys are KILLIN' me! Ah well, I live on the side of the city that actually has two functional peripherals. Makes life so much better. Koesj posted:Yeah notice that he said 'squared corners', which are a bit different from the above example as well. That's exactly what I mean. Aren't they wonderful? Grundulum posted:(seriously, how hard is it to interpret this?). Hard enough that, even after the two lane use signs, two sets of lane arrows, and splitter island between the two lanes, we still needed to install this:  PittTheElder posted:I believe Cichlidae said the trees and shrubs and stuff were put there intentionally, specifically to disrupt that line of sight. Cars coming from the far side of the roundabout are so far away that you shouldn't be worrying about yielding to them. Yes. It's important to clarify one thing: they're installed outside the clear zone. If you install anything with a trunk broader than 4" inside the clear zone, it is a fixed object and a mortal hazard for an errant motorist. We try to avoid trees in the center at all, choosing bushes and flowers instead. If you run into them, it's a landscaper's problem, not a coroner's.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 22:10
|
|
|
Cichlidae posted:Hard enough that, even after the two lane use signs, two sets of lane arrows, and splitter island between the two lanes, we still needed to install this: Thanks for the serious answer to a half-joking question. I still don't understand what's difficult about that sign, but I think I have an occupational bias towards not understanding why others don't understand. Also, another clarification: by "clear zone", do you mean the non-grassy areas in the central island?
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 22:18
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:Thanks for the serious answer to a half-joking question. I still don't understand what's difficult about that sign, but I think I have an occupational bias towards not understanding why others don't understand. Clear zone is a concept discussed in the Roadside Design Guide, and is measured horizontally from the edge of the travel lane. Its width varies depending on the speed and traffic volume of the roadway. It's basically a "Don't put poo poo in here that will kill people if they hit it at speed, because out of control vehicles have a good chance of hitting it" zone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 23:57
|
|
|
Devor posted:Clear zone is a concept discussed in the Roadside Design Guide, and is measured horizontally from the edge of the travel lane. Its width varies depending on the speed and traffic volume of the roadway. It's basically a "Don't put poo poo in here that will kill people if they hit it at speed, because out of control vehicles have a good chance of hitting it" zone. Yeah. Technically speaking, it's the area where 80% of cars will come to a stop after departing the roadway. The other 20% leave the clear zone and (possibly) become fatalities. In addition to the clear zone, we have the ZOI (zone of intrusion), which is a related and somewhat more complicated concept. We designed for ZOI for a while, stopped for a while, and now I think we're doing it again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 00:35
|
|
|
Koesj posted:I don't see them in my country though and I think they're prohibited (not sure though). I don't think they're prohibited, there are a lot of roundabouts where the centre is raised to the point where you can't see the other side. Or poo poo like this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 00:53
|
|
|
Jeoh posted:I don't think they're prohibited, there are a lot of roundabouts where the centre is raised to the point where you can't see the other side. Or poo poo like this. Yeah, this used to be quite common: http://goo.gl/maps/Y3TF2 where the center is raised enough that you can't look across unless you're the Google Street view camera. I haven't seen newer ones designed in that way though, they still have hills but lower ones that you can see over. This one has been there since the 90s.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 01:39
|
|
|
Haifisch posted:That said, not all designers seem to really "get" them: I could drive through this on my commute but it's so god awful and people are so dumb that I actively avoid it at all costs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 02:36
|
|
|
I was thinking of bigass trees within the clear zone (which roundabout islands are also part of) but yes there seems to have been a trend to increase visibility.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 02:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 04:01 |
|
|
Cichlidae posted:No no no no no. If it's got stop signs, it's not a roundabout. Bigness is also not a good roundabout characteristic. What would it be called, in that instance? And at what sizes does a roundabout start being poorly designed? Or going in the other direction, at what size does it start being called a traffic island?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 02:50
|
|