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Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
It just seems like really bad logic to me. If you're the champion and you can't beat the other guy why do you think you deserve to be champion? Sure, you beat someone else to get the belt, but this isn't Highlander. I always point to Rampage-Forrest. Rampage had nothing at all for that fight, yet thinks he deserved to retain the belt because he was never in any danger. Besides all that, there actually is a different metric for winning a championship fight by decision. The two extra rounds mean you have to survive that much longer and be dominant for a hell of a lot longer than in a normal fight.

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Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS
It's not an official thing, and I don't think you're going to find anyone here that disagrees with you. I'm pretty sure all of us think it's retarded.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005
The actual origin of the phrase is from the early days of boxing where it was common for bouts that didn't finish by a KO to be automatic draws or "no decision", which obviously wouldn't involve the title changing hands.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

Dangersim posted:

It's not an official thing, and I don't think you're going to find anyone here that disagrees with you. I'm pretty sure all of us think it's retarded.

Yeah, I know it's not an official thing and here I'm preaching to the choir. It's just been lighting up on my Facebook this morning since some of my friends seem to think that even if Gustafson had been granted the decision, he shouldn't have been declared champion since Jones looked better at the very end.

It got me curious as to where the whole thing started and Fatherdog's response about automatic draws in boxing answers that.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

Atlas Hugged posted:

some of my friends seem to think that even if Gustafson had been granted the decision, he shouldn't have been declared champion since Jones looked better at the very end.

I loving hate people.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.
make them fight until one of them is literally dead it's the only way to know for sure

Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."

fatherdog posted:

The actual origin of the phrase is from the early days of boxing where it was common for bouts that didn't finish by a KO to be automatic draws or "no decision", which obviously wouldn't involve the title changing hands.

We as a people have never really progressed beyond the newspaper decision.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Atlas Hugged posted:

Yeah, I know it's not an official thing and here I'm preaching to the choir. It's just been lighting up on my Facebook this morning since some of my friends seem to think that even if Gustafson had been granted the decision, he shouldn't have been declared champion since Jones looked better at the very end.

That is a valid scoring criteria in certain zip codes.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

Xguard86 posted:

That is a valid scoring criteria in certain zip codes.

I believe Gus won by Stockton "Look at his face bro" rules.

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(
Gustaffson definitely won by Diaz rules. Jones won in the Pride way of scoring.

Seltzer
Oct 11, 2012

Ask me about Game Pass: the Best Deal in Gaming!

Xguard86 posted:

That is a valid scoring criteria in certain zip codes.

I think he meant looked better as in was more active. By all accounts Jones lost hard under Stockton Rules.


e- beaten

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Sorry, Alexander forfeited under Stockton rules because he didn't attempt to continue the fight in the hospital.

Meat Recital
Mar 26, 2009

by zen death robot
You can see Gus in that photo manipulating a small joint, which is the essence of Stockton rules.

Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

WINNINGEST BEVO
The only sense in which I can get behind "to be the champ you have to beat the champ" is just as an acknowledgment of confirmation bias. Like, in a very even round the champ is going to get the nod more often than not because generally they've got more accomplishment/hype behind them. You expect them to win so you're more likely to see it that way.

Also I just got around to watching Jones-Gus last night because of football and work and HOOOOOLY poo poo.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
When Sonnen won the Non-Title WEC match against the WEC champ, was there no rematch due to the fact WEC closed shortly after? Or was there some other reason?

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
The WEC continued on, but that division was folded into the UFC. Filho, a notorious substance abuser, was not brought over to the UFC with Sonnen. Thus, a rematch has never been possible.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"

Atlas Hugged posted:

The WEC continued on, but that division was folded into the UFC. Filho, a notorious substance abuser, was not brought over to the UFC with Sonnen. Thus, a rematch has never been possible.

At least Filho mailed Sonnen the belt :unsmith:

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS
Remember when people thought Filho was better than Anderson

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011

Dangersim posted:

Remember when people thought Filho was better than Anderson

He was, and is.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Dangersim posted:

Remember when people thought Filho was better than Anderson

At one time the dude was a juggernaut and had only lost once in pride. This was before he found a love for narcotics though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."

BlindSite posted:

At one time the dude was a juggernaut and had only lost once in pride. This was before he found a love for narcotics though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't know Filho from Adam so I checked out his record and now I'm getting kind of melancholy that we're running out of active fighters who beat Akira Shoji :smith:

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

BlindSite posted:

At one time the dude was a juggernaut and had only lost once in pride. This was before he found a love for narcotics though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Nah I always thought Anderson was better. I don't think I actually had any legitimate reasons for this, but I ended up being right anyway so :smug:

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Yeah, Anderson probably would've starched him, but he has always had trouble with high level grapplers and around that 04/05 period there Filho was pretty heralded.

MycroftXXX
May 10, 2006

A Liquor Never Brewed
I think Anderson was one of the guys saying Filho was the best.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

MycroftXXX posted:

I think Anderson was one of the guys saying Filho was the best.

Anderson says a lot of things.

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(
Filho only really fought two decent fighters near his size in pride, Misaki and Ninja. When he came to WEC Doerksen beat his rear end until Doerksen Chin kicked in. Its not totally clear that his drug problems had caught up to him at that point.

Filho is about the same amount of wasted potential as Chris Leben. If either guy had stayed clean and trained for real (instead of in their backyard, literal backyard in Filho's case) they could've ridden their gifts and skills further but both guys had obvious deficiencies in their skill set

Actually Chris did a lot more and was a better fighter than Filho with the same problems

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011
the doerkson fight was short, and i'd say filho's defeat of sonnen and becoming wec champ is more than leben has ever done

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(
Sonnen turned his career around after the Filho fight but Filho tapping him after losing the majority of fight was the worst case scenario anyone reasonably could have come up with at the time. It was the worst imaginable performance. Then Filho broke everyones brain by being ten thousand times worse than anyone could have conceived of in their rematch what with the talking to ghosts and so on.

His big two fights as WEC champ were against UFC caliber fighters, but Leben had a 6 year career beating UFC caliber fighters

I can't believe I forgot, but Leben actually was WEC champ too

Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Oct 3, 2013

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006
Grimey Drawer
Why did the IFL die? Was it incompetant owners or was the format just really poo poo? This looks like a rad concept that I think the casual fan could get behind as it borrows from other popular sports and has a clear rankings/ladder/points system and a water-cooler-chat type vibe to it (i assume this was the thought process that the owners followed too).

Could a tweaked version of that exist with the likes of "Team Jackson" "Team Blackzilian" "Team Alliance" "Team Black House" etc?

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(

xcore posted:

Why did the IFL die? Was it incompetant owners or was the format just really poo poo? This looks like a rad concept that I think the casual fan could get behind as it borrows from other popular sports and has a clear rankings/ladder/points system and a water-cooler-chat type vibe to it (i assume this was the thought process that the owners followed too).

Could a tweaked version of that exist with the likes of "Team Jackson" "Team Blackzilian" "Team Alliance" "Team Black House" etc?

They didnt have any real way to make money except for the gate and even then they had bad deals with the venues, their tv deal was poo poo, they went all over the country to every po dunk athletic commission with lovely officials... I wish i could remember more specifics but it was really poo poo from every angle. Every decision was bad. There are fights they never aired between fighters. It was so bad. This is coming from someone who watched every event.

the team concept was not executed like a real sport either. They found name legends like Bas and Mo smith, as well as "Legends" like militech and shamrock, then called the teams Scorpions and Beetles or whatever, but few of the legend coaches had anything to do with the gyms they were figureheads for, and even fewer of those gyms could field enough fighters for a competitive team, so it was basically a mishmash of poo poo aside from Renzo and Shawn Thompkins (the real Bas team Coach), who dominated everyone.

Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Oct 10, 2013

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Didn't they also film events ahead of time and then air them later, but because they weren't exhibition bouts like on TUF, you could just look up the results and know who won weeks in advance of the card being aired?

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(

Atlas Hugged posted:

Didn't they also film events ahead of time and then air them later, but because they weren't exhibition bouts like on TUF, you could just look up the results and know who won weeks in advance of the card being aired?

I can't remember if it was like that for every event, but at least sometimes they did. I remember they chopped a round out of Palaszewski v Menjivar, and the two rounds they showed were split, so one of the only fights between two actually good veteran fighters was incomplete (possibly to protect palaszewski). The bullshit between palaszewski and horodecki was also incredible. Bart pulled his head off in the deepest guillotine and Horodecki escaped by jumping backwards out of the ring. He went on to win the fight.

Oh yeah and for awhile at least the rounds were only four minutes instead of 5 minutes. Great idea right

Click this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8gPYZ2P31o

Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 10, 2013

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011
also, they had to pay the "coaches" who really brought very little to the table

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso
Jim Cornette once pointed out that rasslin' isn't fake fighting; MMA is just unstaged wrestling. IFL seems to be evidence for that.

Triticum Guzzler
Jun 16, 2002

david carmichael posted:

also, they had to pay the "coaches" who really brought very little to the table

the best one was antonio inoki (who nobody cares about) "coaching" (doing absolutely nothing and eventually quitting) the "tokyo sabres" (a bunch of black dudes from la)

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011
i feel like they did that because they bought into the zach arnold type idea that japanese people are idiot bugs who will like things for insane reasons, instead of like things because the things are good

LvK
Feb 27, 2006

FIVE STARS!!

Triticum Guzzler posted:

the best one was antonio inoki (who nobody cares about) "coaching" (doing absolutely nothing and eventually quitting) the "tokyo sabres" (a bunch of black dudes from la)

"Okay, first you appeal to their pride. Then, you give them money. Then, when everything's nice, you kick them in the skull."

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(
if you can find them, the Dear Don Frye articles IFL had him write were definitely the best thing about IFL

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

Triticum Guzzler posted:

the best one was antonio inoki (who nobody cares about) "coaching" (doing absolutely nothing and eventually quitting) the "tokyo sabres" (a bunch of black dudes from la)
I rest my case.

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MycroftXXX
May 10, 2006

A Liquor Never Brewed

Bundt Cake posted:

if you can find them, the Dear Don Frye articles IFL had him write were definitely the best thing about IFL

This is true.

Every MMA also needs to experience the IFL rap once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8gPYZ2P31o

I wish there was a way to apologize and say 'You're Welcome' at the same time.

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