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Lars Blitzer posted:I still maintain he's a none-too-subtle jab at Final Fantasy: Stupid hair, whiny or taciturn "...", mysterious powers, thin, ridiculously huge sword. Tell me his name shouldn't have been Cloud. For it to be a jab there'd have to be some sort of satirical element or commentary or mockery. Putting a lovely thing in your game doesn't it make it a jab just because you took it from a more popular franchise.
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Oct 18, 2013 09:01
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Lars Blitzer posted:I still maintain he's a none-too-subtle jab at Final Fantasy: Stupid hair, whiny or taciturn "...", mysterious powers, thin, ridiculously huge sword. Tell me his name shouldn't have been Cloud. You're thinking of Squall. Cloud wasn't whiny or taciturn until they started releasing all the tie-in nonsense.
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Oct 18, 2013 10:16
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At least he wasn't Tidus.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:56
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I don't know, at least Tidus laughed. Fenris obviously should have done so.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:58
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KittyEmpress posted:I don't know, at least Tidus laughed. Fenris obviously should have done so. Oh, so now we *want* a laughing scene in DA:I? Ahhhhh! Maybe the sex scenes should just be a lot of swimming around underwater. I think Fenris's art designer said he was never happy with the way Fenris turned out. If you check out here: http://mattrhodesart.blogspot.com/2013/07/concept-art-behind-scenes.html towards the bottom, you can see the different Fenris designs.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:08
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That early design of Isabella is, uh, a lot better. Something really weird seems to have occurred from point A to point B with DA2.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:11
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Berke Negri posted:That early design of Isabella is, uh, a lot better. They ran out of time and had to settle for lovely designs, not the cool stuff they could have done if they had had an extra year.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:36
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Maybe they'd have had the time, if time was even the reason for anything in DA2, if they hadn't decided to redo the entire art style for DA2.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:44
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caleramaen posted:They ran out of time and had to settle for lovely designs, not the cool stuff they could have done if they had had an extra year.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:45
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I think it's really just Fenris' hair design that's responsible for the silliness here. You've had taciturn companions, companions who use huge 2-handed weapons, slightly angsty companions and thin, elven companions before without any of it setting off any bells. Joke theory: He is bioware's shot at making a more demographically appealing, romancible Sten.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:48
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HenessyHero posted:I think it's really just Fenris' hair design that's responsible for the silliness here. You've had taciturn companions, companions who use huge 2-handed weapons, slightly angsty companions and thin, elven companions before without any of it setting off any bells. Well...he is familiar with the Qun and can quote it at the Arishok, so it may not be such a joke?
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Oct 18, 2013 18:16
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KittyEmpress posted:I don't know, at least Tidus laughed. Fenris obviously should have done so. He does laugh, multiple times  .Leelee posted:I think Fenris's art designer said he was never happy with the way Fenris turned out. If you check out here: http://mattrhodesart.blogspot.com/2013/07/concept-art-behind-scenes.html towards the bottom, you can see the different Fenris designs. I think Fenris' outfit looks fine, but there's something about the rest that doesn't quite fit. I wouldn't say it's bad but he sticks out among the cast. It's interesting that clearly "Anders" was not originally intended to be Anders. Pick fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 18:39
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Is there a more boring character than Carver though, that's the real question.
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Oct 18, 2013 18:50
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:Wealth and power are things that can "[give] extraordinary power from birth that could be super useful and helpful to society but also immensely harmful and also [give] them the power to be tyrants or otherwise really awful" but unfortunately we don't confine people with those attributes into prisons only to be let out briefly during wartime. I don't think capitalism/socialism or just wealth inequality fits very well though cause rich people have that quality in the form of material goods, that you can just take from them and be done with; mages are mages via inborn, natural traits that can't be taken away without lobotomizing them. Like, if rich people were rich cause they all had super powers, I guess, but... gently caress Tevinter, that place can burn. Pick posted:Their big mistake is the "good" option is STILL to side with the mages. It's the genophage mistake all over again. They promise nuance but they don't follow through. Well, I don't know, you can't really side with the Templars in their current form because they're too caught up in Chantry politics and positions. The Circles can never be improved so long as the Chantry is in charge. If DA:I has an option to pick neither side and betray both, I get the feeling that will be the go-to option, because the current Circle system is unsustainable and inhumane and freeing the mages is insanity in a can. I thought the genophage issue was well-done except Bioware insisted on making the Krogan outside of Wrex act like fantasy orcs instead of a realistic people. That said, I thought the cultural shifts that happen in the mostly good end for ME3, with female Krogan taking more initiative and Wrex providing a guiding light, was reasonably good with the set up they gave it, all things considered. Schubalts posted:Maybe they'd have had the time, if time was even the reason for anything in DA2, if they hadn't decided to redo the entire art style for DA2. I don't know, I liked the more stylized direction of 2, but as noted it probably could've used another year of polish. More time to design more dungeons (instead of the, what, five they actually made and kept reusing) and to fill areas with more detail and generally improve the look of the game. As for the characters, wow, I really like the version of Fenris just standing there with no weapon and the shackles. That would've been much better, I think.
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Oct 18, 2013 18:56
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Berke Negri posted:Is there a more boring character than Carver though, that's the real question. I like Carver quite a bit. He's the only one who doesn't kiss Hawke's rear end and gives him or her a hard time, yet is upset if someone else picks on his sibling. His character arc if he's a templar or a warden is kind of cool too- he grows and changes unlike a lot of the other characters in the game.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:11
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How the christ do you go from this:  To this? 
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Oct 18, 2013 19:15
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Lightning Knight posted:As for the characters, wow, I really like the version of Fenris just standing there with no weapon and the shackles. That would've been much better, I think. I think it looks cool, but it doesn't fit Dragon Age at all. The more I think about it, the more they were in a corner with Fenris given what they'd already established in the franchise. Tevinter's signature color is black (of course), traditional lyrium is a glowing blue. That means you want black as your dominant outfit color, to keep that association. You wouldn't want green or earth tones, for example--in the DA color scheme, that's Dalish which he very specifically isn't (though they still worked some subtle green in). If you want to keep him "elfin" then you want to keep his armor slight. This is actually where I probably would have diverged; I'd have given him more robust armor. I might have gone for gray hair, too, instead of white, but gray would clash with the gold trim. But if you made the trim silver, his design would be even more monochrome, which also isn't good. Hrm, I think if I could change it: 1. Sturdier, thicker armor 2. Slightly darker/redder skin 3. Subtly more gray hair that looks unbrushed and maybe lanky
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Oct 18, 2013 19:16
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Pick posted:I think it looks cool, but it doesn't fit Dragon Age at all. Well, it doesn't fit DA:O and the Fereldan style at all, but given that DA2 was supposed to be an all new setting and Fenris is from Tevinter and had a lot of Qunari influence in his life, I think they could've made it, or at least a version of it, work. Certainly better and more fitting than the animu Final Fantasy garbage we ended up getting (I like him, more or less, as a character, but God does he look dorky next to the comparatively more normal looking characters).
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Oct 18, 2013 19:19
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Lightning Knight posted:Well, it doesn't fit DA:O and the Fereldan style at all, but given that DA2 was supposed to be an all new setting and Fenris is from Tevinter and had a lot of Qunari influence in his life, I think they could've made it, or at least a version of it, work. That said, I'd have made his tats more angular. Not tribal style, but a very utilitarian-looking set of bars and spans. Like whoever applied them didn't give a poo poo about him, just about how useful he was going to be. Architectural. quote:Certainly better and more fitting than the animu Final Fantasy garbage we ended up getting (I like him, more or less, as a character, but God does he look dorky next to the comparatively more normal looking characters). You know, Seheron is hotter than Kirkwall, right? He should have been the one without pants  .
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Oct 18, 2013 19:28
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Leelee posted:I like Carver quite a bit. He's the only one who doesn't kiss Hawke's rear end and gives him or her a hard time, yet is upset if someone else picks on his sibling. His character arc if he's a templar or a warden is kind of cool too- he grows and changes unlike a lot of the other characters in the game. On the other hand: While I liked Bethany simply because she's nice and friendly, as a character she ended up being pretty boring to me. There's potential there with her being both a mage and religious and the internal conflict that brings, but the game never does anything with it. Maybe Grey Warden Bethany is interesting, I never saw that route.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:33
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Ohhh actually Fenris' tats should spell, "REWARD IF LOST. RETURN TO: MAGISTER DANARIUS. RABIES SHOT YoD: 9:30 DRAGON."
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Oct 18, 2013 19:35
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HenessyHero posted:I think it's really just Fenris' hair design that's responsible for the silliness here. You've had taciturn companions, companions who use huge 2-handed weapons, slightly angsty companions and thin, elven companions before without any of it setting off any bells. Yeah, see for all my lighthearted nitpicking of the series (done of love), I actually like Fenris and think he's a good companion character. In a game that is clearly setting you up to see mages as victims he adds an informed alternative take from someone who is generally a good dude. He also is interesting to me in that his Friendship/Rivalry spectrum largely mirrors a real issue. Basically, when one of your friends is wronged in a legitimate way, should you support them unequivocally or should you encourage them to move on? It's hard when you have no real basis of comparison to how they may be feeling. Who knows! No good answer.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:41
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Remove Fenris' hair, tattoo his face a lot, and darken up his armor and you get a much more visually interesting character that also isn't clearly designed to appeal to a very specific subset of Bioware's fanbase.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:51
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Ravenfood posted:Remove Fenris' hair, tattoo his face a lot, and darken up his armor and you get a much more visually interesting character that also isn't clearly designed to appeal to a very specific subset of Bioware's fanbase. I don't see the problem with appealing to the people buying your games? My problem is just that his character design is currently kind of "off", not that people want to bang him. That part's not a problem. And if you do think it's a problem, welcome to what's wrong with gamer culture, where the exclusivity of the experience is considered essential so that the horrible gamer plebs who might have been jocks once or maybe even women might can't come in  .
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Oct 18, 2013 19:55
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Schubalts posted:Maybe they'd have had the time, if time was even the reason for anything in DA2, if they hadn't decided to redo the entire art style for DA2. DA:O artstyle was very much terribly poo poo. The decision had to be made.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:27
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Fenris is a unique case where I don't think I would argue for sturdier armor personally, if only because of one his defining characteristics requires a bit of skin-exposure for emphasis. His tattoos and their lyrium ghosting are specifically what makes him, in particular, dangerous after all. I think I would make his physique a bit more robust to convey that as a person he's been weaponized (maybe change the aesetheics of the armor too) and make his tattoos more brutalist and depersonalizing. I think maybe somewhat wild and slightly unkempt hair would be more suitable for contrast, as a slave his head might've been shaved or even well-styled if he was more of a trophy. Different strokes though, I guess the main point is just to give his overall look a bit more direction, since it is a wee bit off as is. Leelee posted:Well...he is familiar with the Qun and can quote it at the Arishok, so it may not be such a joke? Well just in that they're both grey-skinned, white-haired, dour non-humans who wield 2-handed swords, can talk philosophy and have some strong opinions about mages. The main differences are that Fenris is prettier and a bit more angsty. At least, this is the situation if you twist things a bit. Fenris is certainly still great though, imho. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 20:34
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HenessyHero posted:Fenris is a unique case where I don't think I would argue for sturdier armor personally, if only because of one his defining characteristics requires a bit of skin-exposure for emphasis. His tattoos and their lyrium ghosting are specifically what makes him, in particular, dangerous after all. I don't mean to imply it's bad, since I don't think it is. In fact, I think it's very good in terms of consistency with what had been established and the unfortunate restrictions it placed on him. And you're right about the armor, at least to some extent. I just wish I could think of a good way to make him look like he kicks rear end and takes names, but allows the tattoos to be visible, too. Maybe if he had a separate outfit for when you go talk to him that is more casual and shows more, and then one for battle? And yeah, I think a change to the aesthetis of his tattoos and hair would be the main things. And you can tell Rhodes struggled with it a lot. Did anyone else on the team have a braid? I might have gone with that. It's the practical way to deal with over-long, otherwise unkempt-looking hair. Anyway, agree 100% with more depersonalizing tattoos. Right now I think they're kind of Hallmark-card-filigree. I might try to draw this later. quote:Well just in that they're both grey-skinned, white-haired, dour non-humans who wield 2-handed swords, can talk philosophy and have some strong opinions about mages. The main differences are that Fenris is prettier and a more bit angsty. At least, this is the situation if you twist things a bit. Fenris is certainly still great though, imho. Ha ha he's my favorite after Varric and Aveline and I admit I like him tons.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:46
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It helps that they got a great voice actor to sell that terrible dialogue.Lightning Knight posted:I don't think capitalism/socialism or just wealth inequality fits very well though cause rich people have that quality in the form of material goods, that you can just take from them and be done with; mages are mages via inborn, natural traits that can't be taken away without lobotomizing them. I didn't really mean to get all internet Marxist about it, but it fits better than any real world analogue I can think of. Otherwise it's just ripped straight from the pages of X-Men, which only works because 1. lots of mutants look loving weird and 2. it's set in a time when normal people have sci-fi technology that is comparable to all but the most ridiculously OP mutant powers and can realistically oppress them. So they took that idea and removed it from any context wherein it makes sense. "Mages are a metaphor for the X-Men which are a metaphor for racial tensions in the 1960s" is just downright idiotic and lazily derivative which results in a dumb and unsatisfying narrative that doesn't make any sense beyond that you vaguely recognize the themes they're trying and failing to impart effectively. It was pretty reasonable in DAO since it wasn't the central conflict and starting as a mage you get the whole cozy Hogwarts experience but darker and more menacing around the edges. It was less important that it made perfect sense since there wasn't a magnifying glass on it for 40 hours. The Witcher series did it in a way that makes sense by having the sorceresses be deeply influential court advisers like Confucius or Machiavelli if they could rain down fireballs on your head. They play around with the way having a class of extremely powerful women might affect middle ages misogyny and acknowledge that medieval battlefield tactics would have to be completely reworked to accommodate for people who could wipe out an entire army with their minds. Dragon Age insists that somehow swords and boards and arrows would stand up to even one person who can set dozens of people on fire on a whim. So if they wanted to make the conflict work they'd put the mages in a position of power instead of having them be the downtrodden underdog for absolutely no real reason except that it kind of reminds you of comic books. Look how passionate you are about the Tevinter Imperium. The real issue here is that Andrzej Sapkowski is a talented and creative guy and David Gaider is a hack who reads Twilight and hires his staff from fan fiction message boards.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:19
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:It helps that they got a great voice actor to sell that terrible dialogue. Gideon Emery can make the worst dialogue sound adequate. I'm not thinking of DA2, because even its worst Fenris lines are child's play compared to what he salvaged from Teen Wolf.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:27
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:It helps that they got a great voice actor to sell that terrible dialogue. I've said it before, but this is the only reason anyone thinks Bioware is actually great at writing characters.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:58
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The Sharmat posted:I've said it before, but this is the only reason anyone thinks Bioware is actually great at writing characters. Well it's the only reason the original Star Wars is good either.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:01
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I don't follow.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:06
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Pick posted:I don't mean to imply it's bad, since I don't think it is. In fact, I think it's very good in terms of consistency with what had been established and the unfortunate restrictions it placed on him. And you're right about the armor, at least to some extent. I just wish I could think of a good way to make him look like he kicks rear end and takes names, but allows the tattoos to be visible, too. Maybe if he had a separate outfit for when you go talk to him that is more casual and shows more, and then one for battle? I suppose if you really wanted to put Fenris in solid armor, the armor itself might have to just imply the tattoos by being especially fluted, riveted, grooved or maybe be lamellar in the same general style as the tattoos. I don't think outright decorations would work to this end though. Otherwise the tattoos themselves might just naturally show underneath when he's doing the lyrium ghost thing. It's a bit tricky to design, definitely and I can appreciate why the concept artist said deadlines forced selection more than real satification did. Sexgun Rasputin posted:The Witcher series did it in a way that makes sense by having the sorceresses be deeply influential court advisers like Confucius or Machiavelli if they could rain down fireballs on your head. They play around with the way having a class of extremely powerful women might affect middle ages misogyny and acknowledge that medieval battlefield tactics would have to be completely reworked to accommodate for people who could wipe out an entire army with their minds. Dragon Age insists that somehow swords and boards and arrows would stand up to even one person who can set dozens of people on fire on a whim. Bear in mind that in Thedas normal plebs can obtain a degree of resistance to magic from exposure to lyrium, while dwarves are already born that way, enough that a Templar can become a huge threat to all but the most powerful mages, and how much magic a mage can do often depends on how much lyrium is currently available. No mage is actually like, say, Cyclops with an infinite amount of laser energy always personally available. Unsupported mages can quickly exhaust their reserves and be rendered impotent, while a well-supported mage actually needs to be backed by an industry-sized support system (like lyrium mining, lyrium refining, etc) worked mostly by non-mages. This defangs mages a bit, but they still remain a significant threat otherwise. Ultimately, the status quo pre-andraste was indeed mage domination in the backstory and it did take a very well-organized mass revolt to change things up in most parts of the world. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 23:10
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The Sharmat posted:I don't follow. Star Wars is written terribly but delivered really well. HenessyHero posted:I suppose if you really wanted to put Fenris in solid armor, the armor itself might have to just imply the tattoos by being especially fluted, grooved or maybe be lamellar in the same general style as the tattoos. I don't think outright decorations would work to this end though. Otherwise the tattoos themselves might just naturally show underneath when he's doing the lyrium ghost thing. Again, though, I think it largely turned out well, especially compared to DAO which was largely brown and indistinct. Fenris doesn't look like someone you could have thrown together in the character creator. There's a logic to how he was put together. And it's way better than the design with, for example, huge shackles still on him. It doesn't make sense for the character and it makes him look like he belongs in Guilty Gear or something. Pick fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 23:15
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Pick posted:Again, though, I think it largely turned out well, especially compared to DAO which was largely brown and indistinct. Fenris doesn't look like someone you could have thrown together in the character creator. There's a logic to how he was put together. I'll agree to disagee on this point. If I was rating Fenris' design out of 10, I might give him a passing grade overall but certainly not without definite admonishment. I think don't his form fits his function very well, that's key. He's a front-line fighter who often looks like he's outweighed by his weapon of choice, while also lacking a bit of threat. Poking a little fun at him, he's an illiterate hobo mercenary squatting in a residence with cobwebs and dead bodies but still wears a brightly colored, stylish hairdo that looks straight out of a teenie bop magazine. He's a freed slave still deeply tied to his past and his tattoos could've conveyed that the irons are still there, or it could have conveyed the harshness of his past, but he's mostly got some viney poo poo. His particular dress/armor sits in a weird middleground where it covers but doesn't protect and probably should have been pushed more in one way or another. Nonetheless his face is well done, especially keeping in mind the elves' new aethetic in DA2, and also manages to be pretty emotive. Most of his colors were well-chosen in terms characterization and aesthetics and, overall, he stands out enough to be a distinct looking companion. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 01:33
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HenessyHero posted:I'll agree to disagee on this point. If I was rating Fenris' design out of 10, I might give him a passing grade overall but certainly not without definite admonishment. I think don't his form fits his function very well, that's key. He's a front-line fighter who often looks like he's outweighed by his weapon of choice, while also lacking a bit of threat. Poking a little fun at him, he's an illiterate hobo mercenary squatting in a residence with cobwebs and dead bodies but still wears a brightly colored, stylish hairdo that looks straight out of a teenie bop magazine. He's a freed slave still deeply tied to his past and his tattoos could've conveyed that the irons are still there, or it could have conveyed the harshness of his past, but he's mostly got some viney poo poo. His particular dress/armor sits in a weird middleground where it covers but doesn't protect and probably should have been pushed more in one way or another. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not sure any of the other options really work, but if we're going with a character who's powerful because of lyrium ingrained in his skin, I say emphasis that the lyrium also makes him damage resistant and use one of the character designs with much, much more exposed skin so he looks like a barbarian that can get away with it.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:36
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With Fenris I always imagined that he would look really cool if he had head tattoos, like the Red Wizard in NWN2: MotB. No hair, but shiny magic lyrium tattoos that go from his head to his toes. He gets so angsty about being marked and yet his tattoos aren't even super obvious, they look like big flowy Dalish ones. I would have enjoyed if they had been either more utilitarian or more... magical-science. Give him gibberish formulas carved into his skin, binding the lyrium. Edit: Actually, that brings me to a question: is Kal Shorak under Tevinter? Because we know only dwarves can interact with unrefined lyrium without getting sick, but only Orzammar and Kal Shorak survive. If not, where the gently caress does Tevinter get their lyrium KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 01:37
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Maybe Tevinter just uses its massive slave population to mine their lyrium. It's not like they'd have to care about slaves slowly going crazy. They also practice open blood magic, which would drastically lower the amount of lyrium that Tevinter needs to function.quote:Mages Not disagreeing with any thoughts about Mage analogs, but the Mage situation is basically ripped straight from Warhammer 40k's Psykers (psychics), so they might only be incidental. Mages/Psykers get power from a plane of 'existence' that is dominated by the subconscious of sentient races, the Fade/Warp. They are vulnerable to demonic possession due to their powers making them extra visible and delicious to demons. They are hunted down and imprisoned and forced into service to control/teach them. Instead of Psykers being made a Tranquil equivalent, however, they're just fed to the Emperor's Golden Throne, which rips their bodies and souls apart to keep his soul attached to his 'corpse'.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:57
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Pick posted:Star Wars is written terribly but delivered really well. What? No. It's storybook fantasy but it's a classical hero's journey. Yeah, reading Star Wars dialogue will make it out to be silly nonsense, which I guess is the point you are making, but writing extends beyond dialogue. Star Wars had an actual story with characters that had motivations. Dragon Age 2's story just meanders most of the time and half the characters have little to no motivation to do anything in the story, especially Hawke. If you want to prop up Dragon Age 2 it's best not to compare it to original Star Wars films. You might have better luck with the newer junk.
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Oct 19, 2013 02:30
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The terrible dialogue in both would be a lot more glaring if it wasn't being delivered by talented and charismatic people and the production values weren't great. It's apt in that respect but yeah SW has a real story/plot/arc and DA2 just doesn't.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:51
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