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Yeah, there really isn't enough evidence for reasons as to why they wanted to destroy the humans within the walls. Maybe they wanted to live in the walls, or there is something there. We really don't know. But for whatever reason, when Eren had the possibility of being the titan king they switched plans. His power to command titans overrides the objective to destroy the humans in the walls. It's pointed out by Ymir that Bert, Reiner, and Annie are just pawns of the titan shifter faction. To make such a big decision for their whole faction at such a low rank, Eren's power completely overrides the need to kill the humans in the walls.
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Oct 20, 2013 01:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:coordinate/coordinator. So the thing that stands out to me is Ymir saying she's been a titan for 60 years and that outside the walls it's "not so bad." Meaning the human-titans actually want to live outside the walls, not within. Meanwhile, they all have some kind of selective memory loss because Reiner and Bert, despite knowing where "home" is and what it means to be "a warrior" aren't really sure why they're doing what they did (kill all humans) but feel some need to do so anyway. Then there's monkey man who knows very little about humans in general and what they're up to. Then there are the titans who don't know what from what because they just recently transformed. So, here's what I'm gathering from all this. Oh, I apologize if this stuff has been said a dozen times over. Writing it down and organizing it like this helps me work through and speculate based on what I know. Plus it helps to have you guys tell me if I'm wrong about anything.
At least, that's what I think. I'd expect at least two or three twists on these facts somewhere down the line.
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Oct 20, 2013 01:25
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trucutru posted:Seems to me like the human-giants must be few in numbers since, apparently, they can only get their powers by eating another one. Wait, what? I must have missed it, when was this said?
Saagonsa fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 01:32
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Saagonsa posted:Wait, what? I must have missed it, when was this said?
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Oct 20, 2013 01:37
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DaveKap posted:I think trucutru may be referencing the "they're merging!" line from the anime which I don't think is in the manga at all. Eren wanted to eat/merge with Annie and it's possible that doing so helped him gain the ability to create hard surfaces which in the Manga they suddenly believe he can do? That's the only logic I can make out of it. It's referring to the conversation between Reiner and Ymir. A lot of people interpret it as you need to eat a shifter to become a shifter.
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Oct 20, 2013 01:41
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DaveKap posted:At least, that's what I think. I'd expect at least two or three twists on these facts somewhere down the line. Yeah, my personal theory, which I bet will be 100% wrong is the following: A while ago humans developed the technology to become titans because  . For whatever reason there were both free-willed titans and mindless ones so a new kind of coordinator titan was created to control them.Then, as usual, everything goes to poo poo and there is a huge war between different coordinator factions. In any case, there is no clear winner and all sides are pretty much eliminated. One of the coordinators (probably the last one) leading a group of free-willed titans escapes to wherever the heck it is the walls are located, creates a bunch of newly mindless titans and makes the walls with them. The land is then re-populated (which could explain why they don't understand the old tongue). Then, before dying, he/she creates the church to keep the secret alive and an outside village of free-willed titans that is there to protect the humans. Now, hundreds of years later, a new coordinator arrives to the land, the free-willed titans are able to sense him and decide, for whatever reason, to kill the people inside the walls (it could be mercy, they could have panicked, whatever) but there -thanks to Eren's dad, who somehow managed to recover the Titan technology- they find another coordinator, who could actually let them stand a chance.
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Oct 20, 2013 01:42
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Saagonsa posted:Wait, what? I must have missed it, when was this said? Ymir was a mindless Titan who ate Reiner&Bert's friend, that's how she was able to regain her mind. Also: Eren is the worst possible person to be a coordinator because he really loving hates titans and is an intransigent reckless idiot. They obviously want Eren to help their free-willed titan faction. trucutru fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 01:43
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I don't know how canon this is. But it raises some interesting questions about the biology of titans.
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Oct 20, 2013 02:05
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trucutru posted:Ymir was a mindless Titan who ate Reiner&Bert's friend, that's how she was able to regain her mind. This isn't 100% for certain. Armin snapped Eren out of his Titan-induced hallucination without him needing to devour anyone. There is no real link so far between eating Berrik and regaining her humanity afterward. Ymir and Bert's conversation implies that everyone who can turn into a titan suffers a hallucination episode before they can get control over the power.
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Oct 20, 2013 02:06
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trucutru posted:Ymir was a mindless Titan who ate Reiner&Bert's friend, that's how she was able to regain her mind. Oh, I never thought of it like that. If that's the case, then the question how exactly did she become a titan in the first place? She said she was a titan for only sixty years. So I doubt it has anything to do with the original titan outbreak. However, it doesn't seem like she was a part of Reiner and Bert's village either.
Saagonsa fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 02:08
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Nelson Mandingo posted:This isn't 100% for certain. Armin snapped Eren out of his Titan-induced hallucination without him needing to devour anyone. There is no real link so far between eating Berrik and regaining her humanity afterward. Ymir and Bert's conversation implies that everyone who can turn into a titan suffers a hallucination episode before they can get control over the power. Eren was not created in the same way as the other titans. Reiner&Co believe that he was a mindless titan and forgot about it but we know (I guess) that he was transformed into a free-willed coordinator titan by his dad. Edit: This all links back to the stupid basement and Eren's dad. He knew or re-discovered the way that was used to create the original coordinator titans and, being such a nice dad, experimented with his son. Saagonsa posted:Oh, I never thought of it like that. If that's the case, then the question how exactly did she become a titan in the first place? She said she was a titan for only sixty years. So I doubt it has anything to do with the original titan outbreak. However, it doesn't seem like she was a part of Reiner and Bert's village either. Yeah, who knows how she became a mindless titan in the first place but it is pretty obvious to me that she (And Reiner, Annie, etc.) became a free-willed titan by eating one of them (And that they believe that Eren is the same, they obviously don't have all the information about the past either, that's why Historia is so important). There is something that creates mindless titans, that's why the walls were built, but we don't know the process and what it involves. trucutru fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 02:11
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trucutru posted:Eren was not created in the same way as the other titans. Reiner&Co believe that he was a mindless titan and forgot about it but we know (I guess) that he was transformed into a free-willed coordinator titan by his dad. Reiner, Annie, and Berthold know that the Rogue Titan is a Titan-shifter. They're the ones to suggest it's really an ally after all. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/c009/25.html We don't know if Eren was created the same way as other titans, or anything about the creation process. Maybe he was born with his powers. His father is likely a titan-shifter because he's obviously In The Know. Maybe it was the injection, in which case Grisha had the Titan King serum on hand.
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Oct 20, 2013 02:21
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Reiner, Annie, and Berthold know that the Rogue Titan is a Titan-shifter. They're the ones to suggest it's really an ally after all. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/c009/25.html Yes, that's my point, they know he's a Titan-shifter, so they naturally assume that he was created in the same way as them because that's what they are used to http://www.mangahere.com/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/c047/17.html. They believe he was a mindless titan who forgot about it. But we know that his transformation into a Titan controller, which is a type of shifter, involves some extra fuckery (Edit: and no, we do not know this directly but that's how stories work). It is very probable that he never was a mindless titan. All sides have incomplete information (with the possible exception of the Church and Eren's dad) trucutru fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 02:32
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Phobophilia posted:I don't know how canon this is. But it raises some interesting questions about the biology of titans.
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Oct 20, 2013 05:28
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DaveKap posted:OH. GODDAMMIT. That makes so much sense that it's a mis-translation and all along they meant coordinator. I shoulda known. This is what I get for finally reading Manga after so many years. The translations are pretty bad but that's not a mistranslation. The original is zahyou (座標), which is coordinate as in the x/y, latitude/longitude sort.
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Oct 20, 2013 05:36
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AnonSpore posted:The translations are pretty bad but that's not a mistranslation. The original is zahyou (座標), which is coordinate as in the x/y, latitude/longitude sort. What does that even mean, though? Why and how, exactly, would Eren "have" a coordinate? 
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Oct 20, 2013 05:46
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Keep in mind this is the author who approved(came up with?) the English title.
RatHat fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 05:56
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Bisensual posted:I'm not sure anyone still posts in the anime thread. So, I'll leave this here.
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Oct 20, 2013 06:24
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Meh, forget it. I had a lovely theory with a lot of holes that I have to re-think.
trucutru fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 07:15
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DrSunshine posted:What does that even mean, though? Why and how, exactly, would Eren "have" a coordinate? Keep in mind that we know barely anything about it yet. Although it could simply refer to telling the Titans where to go, I guess.
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Oct 20, 2013 07:39
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trucutru posted:This all links back to the stupid basement and Eren's dad. He knew or re-discovered the way that was used to create the original coordinator titans and, being such a nice dad, experimented with his son. For all I know he might have experimented on Eren before the fall of the wall, but the impression I got from the odd flashback scenes was that Grisha was panicking about what had happened with the invasion and the death of his wife, and decided Eren would be safer if he had the titan/titan coordinator ability.
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Oct 20, 2013 08:21
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My pet theory is that Eren *was* shifter-ified as a mindless shifter, and he ate his dad (also a shifter) as part of his dad's plan to turn Eren into a weapon. It's based on how this page of flashback goes. Grisha says Eren will suffer memory loss because of the injection, and he's crying while Eren, whom he's telling he is keeping somewhat out of the loop, is not.
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Oct 20, 2013 10:40
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Factory Factory posted:My pet theory is that Eren *was* shifter-ified as a mindless shifter, and he ate his dad (also a shifter) as part of his dad's plan to turn Eren into a weapon. It's based on how this page of flashback goes. Grisha says Eren will suffer memory loss because of the injection, and he's crying while Eren, whom he's telling he is keeping somewhat out of the loop, is not. quote:Once you reach the basement, the "power" ought to prove useful. Their memories should teach you how to use it.
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Oct 20, 2013 10:56
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The coordinate could simply refer to the location of the basement, and the secrets therein. They may not have known specifically what they were looking for, only that it could be used to give someone titan shifting powers or worse (namely titan controlling powers). Eren managing to turn into a titan would have made him the prime suspect, and him having titan controlling powers (probably the result of advanced research into titan secrets) would be a dead giveaway that he knows where to find the thing they need. They obviously don't want the military to get their hands on it, so clearly they need to kidnap Eren before they retake Wall Maria.
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Oct 20, 2013 11:58
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quote:Once you reach the basement, the "power" ought to prove useful. Their memories should teach you how to use it. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Oct 20, 2013 |
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Oct 20, 2013 13:12
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DaveKap posted:Memory motif again. It's almost like Big O is getting cribbed a little bit. You just know that the general walled populace is either memory wiped or memory modified. It makes no sense that it only took 100 years for a book about oceans and deserts to become "prohibited material." No reason and no way that the previous generation, which saw the origin of the walls or the initial migration into them, could keep such information from the very next generation. I'd almost think that was what the "2000 years in the future" from the first chapter referred to, but there's no way a book survived that long.
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Oct 20, 2013 13:34
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I've been rereading the earlier chapters, and it's...definitely something seeing Reiner and Bertholdt casually asking Eren and Armin "Hey you're from Shiganshina, right? Man, those titans are pretty scary aren't they..."
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Oct 20, 2013 15:49
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DaveKap posted:Memory motif again. It's almost like Big O is getting cribbed a little bit. You just know that the general walled populace is either memory wiped or memory modified. It makes no sense that it only took 100 years for a book about oceans and deserts to become "prohibited material." No reason and no way that the previous generation, which saw the origin of the walls or the initial migration into them, could keep such information from the very next generation. I don't think this is likely. We haven't seen any signs in the story that general widespread memory loss is a theme - it's only Eren who has difficulty remembering things due to his titanification process. I think a more likely scenario is that an army of titanshifters built the citadel of walls by themselves, and then led the flood of refugees to the safe space. Walls built by god that magically appeared in a day to save the last of humanity! The Coordinator may even have herded the refugees to the city with waves of lesser titans.
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Oct 20, 2013 16:55
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Jackard posted:The very next page... Grisha refers to a power, which you would assume is Titanshifting, but now his wording makes it sound more like Coordinating: I don't know, the page after that one says "you must embrace this power" and Eren shifts. Doesn't give me the coordinator vibe.
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Oct 20, 2013 17:41
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Christa Renz. Christa Lenz. Crystalline(z). GODDESS TITAN CONFIRMED  
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Oct 20, 2013 17:55
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Crystalline Z sounds like a handle or something. So I guess she's the DJ at the hella tight Titan-only nightclub, where all the coolest Titan shifters hang out. EDIT: 
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Oct 20, 2013 18:42
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I hear "Crystalline Z" and my mind immediately checks to see if a new Mazinger series got announced.
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Oct 20, 2013 18:49
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I haven't watched any anime or read any manga in quite a while. Last weekend I was bored enough that I decided to check out AoT on Crunchyroll. Now I've read all the way through the manga as well.  It's getting a bit annoying at this point though how literally everyone who knows what's going on would rather die/cocoon themselves/kidnap Eren than spill the beans. Hopefully now that the action seems to be cooling down they'll have time to ask Christa what she knows, but I'm sure that's just going to lead to even more questions. Given the BSG vibes I'm getting off the series it will probably amount to "humans abused titans as tools, sentient titans retaliated by killing most humans, but some of them are open to the idea of peace". Maybe the walls were formed by a faction of titans who wanted to spare the remaining humans from the wrath of the angry ones? Also I'm expecting Irvin to pull off a fully-fledged Adama Maneuver at some point and it will be goddamned amazing. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to slow down just because he's missing an arm.
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Oct 20, 2013 18:58
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I'm almost certain I've asked this before, but do you think Mikasa and Armin also had their memories modified by Grisha in the 2 years between the invasion and enlisting? The fact that Eren says "you've been asking crazy ever since Mom died" implies that that wasn't the first time he saw his dad since the attack. And while I'm willing to believe Grisha could have found Eren in a refugee settlement and pulled him to a secluded area to inject him, then disappear in a crowd, I find it impossible for Eren to be able to have any sort of sustained contact with his dad without Mikasa and Armin knowing. Or at least Mikasa; Armin might not have been hanging out with the other two while his grandfather was still alive, since he could have been living with him. I'd really like to see a flashback of their life as refugee kids, showing what that situation was like. I can only assume they were living in shantytowns of tents and maybe tiny shacks made of lovely wood and tin roofs?
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Oct 20, 2013 20:50
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trucutru posted:Yeah, who knows how she became a mindless titan in the first place but it is pretty obvious to me that she (And Reiner, Annie, etc.) became a free-willed titan by eating one of them (And that they believe that Eren is the same, they obviously don't have all the information about the past either, that's why Historia is so important). There is something that creates mindless titans, that's why the walls were built, but we don't know the process and what it involves. I don't remember them ever drawing any sort of causal link between the two things. We're told that Ymir ate Reiner/Bertholdt's friend and we're told that Ymir at some point stopped being mindless, but I don't think we're ever told "Ymir stopped being mindless immediately after eating Reiner/Bertholdt's friend," much less "Ymir stopped being mindless because of eating Reiner/Bertholdt's friend." And even if that was the case, which I don't think it is, that in no way implies that eating a person is necessary to become a titan shifter. I think that whole idea is just the result of people over-analyzing the specific language used in the translation or having questionable reading comprehension skills.
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Oct 20, 2013 23:57
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Ytlaya posted:having questionable reading comprehension skills. It's this one.
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Oct 21, 2013 00:09
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I'll point out again that it also directly contradicts one of the handful of things we know about titans: that they don't actually digest anything. They just chew the bits up and then spit them out again. A titan isn't really capable of eating anyone in a way that would mean anything.
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Oct 21, 2013 00:11
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Ytlaya posted:
Yeah, it could be me just reading it wrong. Reiner mentions that she ate her friend. Soon afterwards he mentions that she recovered her mind. But they don't say link one thing with the other. She recovered her memories some time after eating that dude. It may be linked to it or it may not.
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Oct 21, 2013 07:25
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The whole argument about Ymir eating Berik, therefore she regained her humanity is a pretty solid example of people falling into the post hoc fallacy. You guys are forgetting that while the temporal sequence "Ymir ate Berik., Ymir regained humanity." happened, inferring a mechanism is impossible. I could say "Bert kicked down the wall., Eren gained the power to become a titan.", and infer that the destruction of Wall Maria is what gave Eren his powers. This follows the same form as the argument about Ymir and Berik, so it's blatantly fallacious.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:01
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trucutru posted:Yeah, it could be me just reading it wrong. Elvis died in 1977. AIDS was first clinically observed in 1981 in the US, only a few years later. But they didn't link one thing with the other. A widespread, horrible illness first developed some time after a famous man died. It may be linked to it or it may not.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:07
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