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Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich

fatherdog posted:

I was thinking exactly the same thing (about Whitehead) but I can't figure out what fight it was.

He weighed 261 and King Mo weighed 218 when they fought, and I seem to recall the fight originally being contracted for LHW, but I can't confirm that.

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BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

projecthalaxy posted:

Does Anthony Johnson have some sort of medical problem that causes him to miss weight dramatically for most fights or is he just a moron?

Anthony Johnson should've been a middle weight when he was trying to cut to welterweight and should've been a light heavy weight when he tried to cut to middle weight. He's a moron. His idea seemed to be, well I made 170 when I was 210ish I can make 185 after putting on more size.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich

BlindSite posted:

Anthony Johnson should've been a middle weight when he was trying to cut to welterweight and should've been a light heavy weight when he tried to cut to middle weight. He's a moron. His idea seemed to be, well I made 170 when I was 210ish I can make 185 after putting on more size.

He admitted to not only bulking up with strength training but not dieting until the very end of his camp for the Vitor fight. He started his cut at 235 or something like that, which is more than a lot of LHWs. He at least dieted down to 210 before attempting to cut to 170.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

Fat Twitter Man posted:

He admitted to not only bulking up with strength training but not dieting until the very end of his camp for the Vitor fight. He started his cut at 235 or something like that, which is more than a lot of LHWs. He at least dieted down to 210 before attempting to cut to 170.

I believe he made it to like 188 and then almost died.

Fat Twitter Man
Jan 24, 2007

by R. Guyovich

Dangersim posted:

I believe he made it to like 188 and then almost died.

Yep, he quit feeling his legs and the UFC doctor told him to rehydrate immediately

quote:

"I'm already laughing at what ppl are saying," Johnson posted on Facebook. "Yeah it was for medical reason and I did what the UFC Dr Told me to do. Believe it or don't I give a (expletive) cuz the ppl close to me were freaking out but I'm still alive and something like this has never happen before. Say what you want I'm still gonna do my thang. You try not having feeling in your legs and can't move then and see how you look at life after that."

He posted that before Vitor even agreed to the "205 on fight day" stipulation. Anthony Johnson may be dumbest person ever to fight in the UFC.

Schenck v. U.S.
Sep 8, 2010

Fat Twitter Man posted:

He admitted to not only bulking up with strength training but not dieting until the very end of his camp for the Vitor fight.

Cutting 40 pounds to make welterweight is just too much for his body to handle. So he moves up to middleweight where he's already the correct size. From what I can find online Okami, Sonnen (when he was MW), Bisping, Weidman, etc. all start their cuts in the range of 210-220. But then Rumble goes ahead and puts on a bunch of additional muscle mass and then doesn't bother dieting, so after moving up his cut also moved up to 50 pounds. Genius.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
Um hello, I guess this is the right thread. I have a question about wrestling.

I'm wondering if there is any wrestlers who have a gimmick of doing the "I'm watching you" hand gesture on a regular basis. It's where you point your fingers at your eyes, then point them at the opponent. Also, it helps if they did this on video, that's what I need it for. Thank you!

Memento
Aug 25, 2009


Bleak Gremlin

Livingtrope posted:

Um hello, I guess this is the right thread. I have a question about wrestling.

I'm wondering if there is any wrestlers who have a gimmick of doing the "I'm watching you" hand gesture on a regular basis. It's where you point your fingers at your eyes, then point them at the opponent. Also, it helps if they did this on video, that's what I need it for. Thank you!

This is a question probably better asked in Wrestling Questions That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
Thank you, I must have missed it.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS
Didn't there used to be a fight analasis thread, like breaking down technique? I know there are a bunch of us who train/have experience in different martial arts, and I've always enjoyed reading stuff like Jack Slack articles.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009


Bleak Gremlin

Dangersim posted:

Didn't there used to be a fight analasis thread, like breaking down technique? I know there are a bunch of us who train/have experience in different martial arts, and I've always enjoyed reading stuff like Jack Slack articles.

I think one goes up every now and then and falls off into archives after a little while.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Dangersim posted:

Didn't there used to be a fight analasis thread, like breaking down technique? I know there are a bunch of us who train/have experience in different martial arts, and I've always enjoyed reading stuff like Jack Slack articles.

Yeah I started one, not sure if it's archived or not, if it is I'll do an effort post sometime in a few days and start another.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"
:toot::birddrugs::toot:

BlindSite posted:

Yeah I started one, not sure if it's archived or not, if it is I'll do an effort post sometime in a few days and start another.

Yeah, I've always wanted to know what makes a truly good boxer and not grasped it. I'd love some in depth break downs of what made the greats so great. Boxing, through my father, was a lot of fun to watch growing up.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
its strangely difficult to find information on boxing technique outside of actually boxing and having a coach tell you things. Jack Slack does a really amazing job but outside of him and that 100 year old book by Jack Dempsey, there just isn't too much out there.

Floyd Mayweather, of all people, has some stuff on youtube talking about his boxing technique. Its weird because he drops a lot of the Money Mayweather poo poo and is actually pretty likeable due to his obvious love of boxing and his deep knowledge of the game.

Heres one I could find: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR8XQDbZo4Q

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005
I think I've linked this one before but it's a very good one -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&hd=1

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

fatherdog posted:

I think I've linked this one before but it's a very good one -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&hd=1

To get into a little more detail - this describes on particular style of boxing, not every one. For example, the peekaboo style Cus D'Amato taught to Patterson and Tyson broke some of these "rules" because it had different ways of accomplishing the things those "rules" accomplished, but was no less effective for that. But a lot of things in this vid are very solid pieces of technique to absorb, and when I first saw it it made me understand the purpose behind a lot of the things I'd been taught to do by my first boxing trainer (whose style was mostly from Kenny Weldon) who knew a shitload but would always tell you "just do it like this" without explaining why.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"
:toot::birddrugs::toot:

I appreciate the videos, but I have an embarrassing confession. Outside of, "his head is moving" and "his head isn't moving" what makes head work suddenly bad. I'm specifically thinking of Randy Couture head movement.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.
I can't even remember Randy having head movement at all, he'd just kind of bend at the waist and his head would move along with the rest of him. It's a far cry from how someone like Floyd Mayweather will use subtle head movements and shoulder rolls to evade or deflect punches.

manyak
Jan 26, 2006

Captain Log posted:

I appreciate the videos, but I have an embarrassing confession. Outside of, "his head is moving" and "his head isn't moving" what makes head work suddenly bad. I'm specifically thinking of Randy Couture head movement.

Anything that makes your head a harder target to hit is "good" defensively speaking. Even really bad head movement is usually better than nothing, defensively. The problem is you want to be in a position to make your opponent miss and then counter, and if you have really goofy exaggerated head movement like some MMA fighters (eg clay guida) you are putting yourself constantly off balance and will never be in a good position to slip and sit down on a hard counter while your opponent is exposed, so theres not as much point to it. Ideally you want to take your head just off-center enough to make the punch barely miss. Another thing is that people with bad head movement pick the wrong times to do it -- constantly doing it while they are way outside of the gap, and then when they step into the gap and close the distance (when head movement actually matters) their head is a completely still target. This is an example of knowing that head movement is good but not knowing why. Another slightly less important but still important (especially in a 12 round boxing match) thing is that exaggerated lovely head movement is a waste of energy and economy of motion should always be the goal

The reason "bad" head movement isnt as bad in MMA as in pure striking is because you have more offensive options that aren't as limited by your lovely, off-balancing head movement. If you bent over like Randy couture in a boxing match, wobbling back and forth your opponent could just tee off on you without fear because you dont have a lot of offensive punching options while youre off balance, bent at the waist shucking and jiving around. But in MMA you at least have the option of the clinch and takedowns, so for guys without good striking instincts that mainly just want to close the distance safely (Randy, guida, other goofy head movement havers) its not as awful

Schenck v. U.S.
Sep 8, 2010
Another issue of exaggerated head movement is you can run out of space, like you roll all the way to your left until you can't go any further left. At that point you're off-balance. Your opponent knows that if he comes in you can't hurt him because striking power requires balance. Worse, you've already moved as far as possible so you can't roll with the punch and will eat it at full power. This is what happened to Anderson Silva when he was KOed by Weidman, he dodged until he ran out of space.

Machida-Couture is a good fight to see the uses and misuses of Randy-style head movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8aQw5NN_Vg
Throughout the fight Randy habitually dips whenever Lyoto makes an attack or a feint, also rolling to one side to bring his head off the center line or at least take some of the power away from Machida's. This actually sort of works for a while. His shoulders and arms are in the way of Machida's punches, and by rolling to his right he can take away some of the power from anything that gets through. It also sets him up to change levels and move forward into the clinch or a takedown attempt, where he's more at home. Unfortunately, Machida is easily able to defend himself from Couture's attempts to grapple, and as manyak explained, Randy's own striking output is almost entirely ineffective.

As the first round continues Machida has nothing to worry about, and he gets his rhythm and begins landing effectively. Couture does the same thing every time, so Machida knows where his head is going to be. Also, Couture's defense is somewhat effective at stifling hooks and straight punches, but ducking actually makes him more vulnerable to strikes coming from below. Machida starts mixing in uppercuts. He feints, which prompts Couture to dip down and roll to his right, and as he does that Machida comes around the exposed left side to land a punch as Randy hits the end of his range of movement. Machida lands a hard leaping knee to Randy's body at 1:30, again coming from underneath his defense. Finally in the second round, Machida feints and Randy ducks directly into the front kick, which comes straight up the middle from below.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS
Going off of what Manyak was saying, Jack Slack did a breakdown of Chandler/Alvarez.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPkRz_LGA2s

He talks about how Chandler's exaggerated, reactive head movement works at first. But as the fight goes on and Chandler gets tired, he's not able to do it effectively anymore, and he starts to get lit up. Eddie has more subtle, constant head movement, and he's able to keep it up the whole fight.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009

Dangersim posted:

He talks about how Chandler's exaggerated, reactive head movement works at first. But as the fight goes on and Chandler gets tired, he's not able to do it effectively anymore, and he starts to get lit up. fight.

This is Overeem vs Bigfoot as well.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.
This is why watching Dominick Cruz do his thing is so infuriating for me to watch - he looks really retarded with his energy-sapping dance movements but none of his opponents are smart enough to focus their attack on his body and legs, so they just whiff bad hooks at his face. And his wrestling is good enough that he can just knee tap guys as they're closing the distance as well.

I have a feeling that he's going to have a lost a step because of the knee injury and long layoff, and if he tries to fight the same way he did before he's going to get brutalized by rao rao Barao.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Another mistake guys make Velasquez used to be guilty of it and Rashad still is, is moving your head and then stopping when you're throwing strikes.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"
:toot::birddrugs::toot:

Seriously thank you all. I've always been a tic embarrassed by my length of really watching MMA and not knowing what head movement really meant. When I was a ranked épée fencer once of the main things to to was gently caress with your opponent to see their reaction. Then, you act on the reaction.

I love this forum.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

:qq:He expended too much energy and got tired:qq:

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS

Captain Log posted:

When I was a ranked épée fencer once of the main things to to was gently caress with your opponent to see their reaction. Then, you act on the reaction.

This is a thing in striking too, something you'll see high level guys do more. Machida, Anderson etc do it all the time.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Captain Log posted:

Seriously thank you all. I've always been a tic embarrassed by my length of really watching MMA and not knowing what head movement really meant. When I was a ranked épée fencer once of the main things to to was gently caress with your opponent to see their reaction. Then, you act on the reaction.

I love this forum.

It's a very important part for counter strikers. They throw quite a lot of feints to get you to do something that ends up leaving you wide open. Rogan spergs a little bit about Machida's kicking game - sometimes he flicks his leg out there without really committing to the strike and Rogan seems to ponder on it saying it's a bit weaker than this fighter or that technique, but Machida has stated in the past he often throws a kick like that trying to bait his opponent.

You can do the same with head movement using a false attacking line with your body, or moving your head so you're unprotected but out of their current range and wait for them to rush in after it.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
It's frequently pointed out that some boxing tactics don't translate into MMA because of the different rules. Some forms of slipping ought to be backed up by lateral movement. Doing this from a distance is bad because you can either circle into a kick to the leg or even head. But if you're in the pocket, weaving under a hook should keep you out of trouble from both kicks, which would get jammed cuz your so close, and knees, which can't be thrown very soon after a commited hook. In MMA, I think the preferred tactic is ducking and shooting the double, which works very well. But I'd like to see more guys weave the hook, pivot, and then answer. Gus did the weaving part a few times to Jon Jones, and it was cool.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

Captain Log posted:

When I was a ranked épée fencer

You should loving love Machida; he's about as close to an epee fencer as you can get in mma, right down to ignoring right of way against Shogun in their second match.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
There was a fight in a lower weight class where a dude who was doing a really nice job with head movement proceeded to duck right into a headkick and get knocked out. I know it was either the WEC or UFC but I cannot remember the fighters, it was several years ago so its all kinda hazy.

It really opened my eyes to the differences in striking for different formats.

Chexoid
Nov 5, 2009

Now that I have this dating robot I can take it easy.
Sounds to me like you're thinking of Marlon Sandro vs Pat Curran

JKong
Sep 11, 2003
The most telling example I can think of is Marlon Sandro vs Pat Curran, but it happened in Bellator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkWR0tGC8P8

You can see that Curran sets up the kick by throwing a couple of jabs at him. I also know nothing about striking, but I assume that Sandro's over exaggerated head movement was the problem.

Edit: drat my slowness.

CRISPYBABY
Dec 15, 2007

by Reene
My kickboxing coach told me to be subtle with head movement. Get just a little out of the way and then counter. His rational was that if you're ducking and weaving like a boxer someone who knows what they're doing is gonna grab your head when it's low and knee your face in.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

attackmole posted:

My kickboxing coach told me to be subtle with head movement. Get just a little out of the way and then counter. His rational was that if you're ducking and weaving like a boxer someone who knows what they're doing is gonna grab your head when it's low and knee your face in.

cf Lawal/Feijao

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
hmm maybe that its. Wouldn't be the first time I've gotten confused on which promotion I remembered holding which fight.

Wisenheimer
Jul 11, 2001
I'm a little confused about the judging criteria. The criteria listed on the UFC website appear to be the same as the Unified Rules for MMA adopted in 2009. However, there is a newer document, MMA Judging Criteria Revisions 2012 Report (pdf), that notes a number of changes and clarifications to the criteria. Are these revisions the correct judging criteria or do they just use what is listed on the UFC website?

Ogantai
Apr 21, 2003

Full of bologna

Wisenheimer posted:

I'm a little confused about the judging criteria. The criteria listed on the UFC website appear to be the same as the Unified Rules for MMA adopted in 2009. However, there is a newer document, MMA Judging Criteria Revisions 2012 Report (pdf), that notes a number of changes and clarifications to the criteria. Are these revisions the correct judging criteria or do they just use what is listed on the UFC website?
The ABC isn't an actual commission itself, it's just sort of like the UN of athletic commissions. (And has about the same amount of actual authority, ie: none.)

Fozzy The Bear
Dec 11, 1999

Nothing much, watching the game, drinking a bud
Random question, I made a bet with my friend that steroids help you if you train or not. I remember reading here on PSP about 4-6 months ago about this study that a group doing no exercise gained 7 pounds of muscle vs the control group. I've googled my hardest, but I can't find that study anymore. Anyone have a link?

I specifically remember someone making a joke that the steroid would be perfect for Rampage Jackson.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

You might have better luck talking to Shiny sides in the A/T thread, but the biggest benefit of roids for training is increased energy levels and quick healing.

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Fozzy The Bear
Dec 11, 1999

Nothing much, watching the game, drinking a bud

BlindSite posted:

You might have better luck talking to Shiny sides in the A/T thread, but the biggest benefit of roids for training is increased energy levels and quick healing.

I am thinking of this one specific study, the group taking the steroids gained muscle, and the control group didn't. And both groups didn't work out.

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