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Bob NewSCART
Feb 1, 2012

Outstanding afternoon. "I've often said there's nothing better for the inside of a man than the outside of a horse."

Is there anyway other than the extremely lacking qud wiki to educate myself on the game without having to come constantly ask the thread questions? Google hasn't turned up much.

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Tollymain
Jul 9, 2010

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Haha gently caress, guess I can't really play Sil with full effectiveness. I don't have a keypad to move diagonally with :saddowns:

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA
May 29, 2008

Tollymain posted:

Haha gently caress, guess I can't really play Sil with full effectiveness. I don't have a keypad to move diagonally with :saddowns:

just use the number keys?

1, 3, 7 an 9 work fine.

Glimpse
Jun 5, 2011


Tollymain posted:

Haha gently caress, guess I can't really play Sil with full effectiveness. I don't have a keypad to move diagonally with :saddowns:
Esc or Shift-O for options > Interface options > Move with hjkl

BetterLekNextTime
Jul 22, 2008

It's all a matter of perspective...
Grimey Drawer

Tollymain posted:

Haha gently caress, guess I can't really play Sil with full effectiveness. I don't have a keypad to move diagonally with :saddowns:

No excuses! You can use the row of numbers on the top of your keyboard- I actually do that most of the time even when I'm on a full size keyboard since I'm so used to playing on my laptop.

you can also use a roguelike keyset.

I, on the other hand, can't play Sil with full effectiveness because I'm an impatient moron who always gets in over my head.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Tollymain posted:

Haha gently caress, guess I can't really play Sil with full effectiveness. I don't have a keypad to move diagonally with :saddowns:

If you don't have a numpad you should really learn to play roguelikes with hjkl keys.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

uPen posted:

If you don't have a numpad you should really learn to play roguelikes with hjkl keys.
Or do something like what I did in DCSS and map
QWE
ASD
ZXC
to movement, then everything else onto other keys. Far, far more intuitive, dealing with hjkl is awful.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!
hjkl is awful for about an hour and then it's the best.

Tollymain
Jul 9, 2010

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Oh yeah I can totally hjkl. For some reason I'm a dumb dummy who couldn't find the interface options.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream

I honestly really really tried to hjkl but I just couldn't get used to it. :saddowns:

(Fortunately I have a keypad.)

Bouchacha
Feb 7, 2006

uPen posted:

hjkl is awful for about an hour and then it's the best.

Seriously. The primary benefit to hjkl is that your hands are already near all the pertinent keys. It works amazingly well for DCSS especially.

lesbian baphomet
Nov 30, 2011

Bob NewSCART posted:

Is there anyway other than the extremely lacking qud wiki to educate myself on the game without having to come constantly ask the thread questions? Google hasn't turned up much.

I don't think so. Occasionally google turns something up in the bay12 qud thread or some other random qud thread around the internet, but there doesn't seem to be any centralized resource other than the mostly empty wiki. Even the info in other threads can be unreliable since a lot of it is a year or two old.

andrew smash
Jun 26, 2006

smooth soul
Does anybody have any decent strategies for the late middle game in Sil? I can pretty reliably get a heavy weapon/armor user with a smithing start to about 650' but then i just get stomped.

Edit:any tips on getting a stabber rolling would be appreciated too

andrew smash fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Nov 15, 2013

..btt
Mar 26, 2008
I haven't got further than that myself, but I think the general advice for version 1.1.1 is not to invest in smithing. A few hundred exp for the first forge is ok, but anything more than that puts you far behind where you should be unless you find 4 or 5 more forges before the mid-game, which is extremely rare with the new generation algorithm. That depth is where tricky enemies start to show up, and you really need good combat stats or a lot of powerful gear to deal with it on a heavy melee guy.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

andrew smash posted:

Does anybody have any decent strategies for the late middle game in Sil? I can pretty reliably get a heavy weapon/armor user with a smithing start to about 650' but then i just get stomped.

Edit:any tips on getting a stabber rolling would be appreciated too

I really don't like forging, putting more than like 6 points in it is a waste. It's useful for getting through the early game but I don't think it's worth investing in the mid/late game. Part of the reason you're having so much trouble is you have thousands of exp invested in a skill that does literally nothing so if your gear isn't out of this world better than what you would otherwise have it's a complete waste.

Also I've never gotten a heavy armor user working, my smiths (and all my successful characters for that matter) are stealthy. If you want to be a stealthy stabber invest in evasion, melee and stealth. Find a nice shortblade/deathblade, pick up all the +critical abilities and go to town with your quintuple crits on things that don't know you're there.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


Is there any way to compile or get a version of brogue without the eels? I'm tired of level two being infested with eels. I have to cross 6 squares of water, hey look 80% of my health is gone. Nearly every other thing in the game can be gotten around with clever thinking but eels are just a straight up unavoidable gently caress you to the player.

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Nov 15, 2013

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
Sil heavy armour lategame:
-Obviously, by 650ft you should have zero problem with darkness monsters. If you do, immediately buy 10 (adjusted, after grace etc) points in song and get song of Trees. I usually allocate XP for this at around 550 just to MAKE SURE I can roflstomp those bastards.
-Going deeper, the threats are divided into gimmicks: darkness (see above) and invis; High Armour; High Tohit+evade; elemental attacks.
->Werewolves are dangerous in that their poison melee bypasses armour 100%, so pois resist kinda becomes mandatory for low-EV chars. They can swarm at times.
->Serpents are high-AC and are common as all hell, so you NEED sharpness or a really huge blade to break though it.
->Cats are the true swarm monster, and high-AC chars can get crit resistance to put a stop to them hurting you 1v1.
->Vampires are countered by having sustain stats or ungodly EV... so get your sustain up!
->Dragons are to be avoided at all costs. The fire-breathers can one-hit-KO you if you don't have fire res. If you're feeling brave, they have low EV&AC but high HP; archery's ok!
->Rauko are also common, hence why Nargothand is the preferred endgame brand. They all have good armour, see above regarding the necessity of sharpness/huge blades.
-->Sulrauko are annoying obv, but you'll need to see invis eventually (or high perception etc) so might as well get it [keen senses etc] when they start showing up.
-->Ringraukos are a pushover imo.
-->Kemenraukos are SUPER LETHAL. They'll wake the entire goddamn level up and you'll be surrounded in broken terrain instantly. Consider running&re-rolling the stage if you can't confidently kill him asap.
-->Ururaukos can One-Hit you, but are glass cannons. Handle with care.
-->After that, they're all trivial imo.

So, goals for high-str melee bruisers:
1. Don't die in midgame to darkness.
2. Get sharpness/BIG HITS going.
3. Get decent will and/or laundry list of 'resist X'

Numbers 1&2 can be solved by song: 10 points into it and then Trees, Aulule, and Sharpness (optionally Unwavering Voice). Costs are ~2.6k xp for Trees, which is cheap imo if you NEED that light, and then it's another ~6k to sharpness. Which sounds expensive, and might be depending on if you actually need it!

My 2c on forging:
Light can be solved if you find mithril and a forge before ~550ft. Totally random, but Jeweler is a cheap 1.5k xp and then you can make two feanorn lanterns. One to carry, another to drop on the floor to give you effectively 6 light v darkness monsters.
Otherwise I ignore it until 800+ft when dropping 8k to go from zero to artifice is actually a good idea, since by then you will give your left nut for some of those resists/sustains.

Oh yea, and don't get the guy with the smithing affinity. It's a bad bad drug to take early game...

Serephina fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Nov 15, 2013

madjackmcmad
May 27, 2008

Look, I'm startin' to believe some of the stuff the cult guy's been saying, it's starting to make a lot of sense.

Serephina posted:

->Dragons are to be avoided at all costs

This offends me on the deepest level. Not that you're wrong, but that there's a trend among roguelikes to put in super strong, cool monsters and the #1 strat by a mile is "run the gently caress away"

..btt
Mar 26, 2008
It's Sil. It's on theme. The right thing to do both mechanics and theme-wise is often to run away. You're an elf sneaking into the fortress of a demi-god. You're not supposed to make it your bitch.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

madjackmcmad posted:

This offends me on the deepest level. Not that you're wrong, but that there's a trend among roguelikes to put in super strong, cool monsters and the #1 strat by a mile is "run the gently caress away"

Figuring out the right way to run away from stuff is like, the game. You even get XP for it in Sil. Monsters designed to make you figure out how to best way to run away are a pretty legit design option.

I think its a very roguelike idea that sometimes getting the gently caress out is the best way to deal with something. 99% of games involve you being able to relatively easily kill anything you encounter when you see it. Designers playing on instincts learned from other game genres to kill you is a storied roguelike tradition. It also tends to make it extra satisfying when you do kill one of those.

madjackmcmad
May 27, 2008

Look, I'm startin' to believe some of the stuff the cult guy's been saying, it's starting to make a lot of sense.

..btt posted:

It's Sil. It's on theme. The right thing to do both mechanics and theme-wise is often to run away. You're an elf sneaking into the fortress of a demi-god. You're not supposed to make it your bitch.

Jeffrey posted:

Figuring out the right way to run away from stuff is like, the game. You even get XP for it in Sil. Monsters designed to make you figure out how to best way to run away are a pretty legit design option.

I get it, and objectively it's good design. It's a unique type of challenge, part of the genre's flavor, and it all makes sense. Objectively.

But, subjectively, which is shorthand for "my own personal opinion and who cares": ugh. There's a broad spectrum between running away on sight all the time and making something your bitch. Close calls, encounters that you run from because they went south (an unlucky enemy crit, or extra monsters you didn't expect), encounters that would be deadly but you prepared for them, and yeah every now and then you get player domination. Usually that last part is well earned, after dying a whole bunch previously and learning how to deal with the challenge.

Dragons are also brilliant, intelligent foes. Fighting one is going up against someone almost assuredly smarter than you, who has a stronger force of arms to boot. I have a pretty nerdy stance on dragons in that I never see them as trash monsters. High level fights that throw you in a room with seven dragons that you just yawn through are offensive to me too. Fighting a dragon should be such an event, and as it stands I don't even think I can represent it correctly, which is why there aren't any in Dungeonmans.

Anyway this is all just my opinion, because roguelikes are one of my favorite things to discuss.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

madjackmcmad posted:

I get it, and objectively it's good design. It's a unique type of challenge, part of the genre's flavor, and it all makes sense. Objectively.

But, subjectively, which is shorthand for "my own personal opinion and who cares": ugh. There's a broad spectrum between running away on sight all the time and making something your bitch. Close calls, encounters that you run from because they went south (an unlucky enemy crit, or extra monsters you didn't expect), encounters that would be deadly but you prepared for them, and yeah every now and then you get player domination. Usually that last part is well earned, after dying a whole bunch previously and learning how to deal with the challenge.

Dragons are also brilliant, intelligent foes. Fighting one is going up against someone almost assuredly smarter than you, who has a stronger force of arms to boot. I have a pretty nerdy stance on dragons in that I never see them as trash monsters. High level fights that throw you in a room with seven dragons that you just yawn through are offensive to me too. Fighting a dragon should be such an event, and as it stands I don't even think I can represent it correctly, which is why there aren't any in Dungeonmans.

Anyway this is all just my opinion, because roguelikes are one of my favorite things to discuss.

Fighting a dragon in Sil is always an event, the fight can take a turn at basically any point if they decide to breathe or cast a spell so you need to be prepared to run or pop consumables. Also in Sil seeing more than 1 dragon in a room (besides the throne room) is pretty rare, usually you'll see a max of like 2 in an extremely deep vault.

I almost never take a fight with a dragon unless there's something in its hoard I want/can't sneak, they're just too dangerous.

uPen fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Nov 15, 2013

doctorfrog
Mar 14, 2007

Great.

icantfindaname posted:

Is there any way to compile or get a version of brogue without the eels? I'm tired of level two being infested with eels. I have to cross 6 squares of water, hey look 80% of my health is gone. Nearly every other thing in the game can be gotten around with clever thinking but eels are just a straight up unavoidable gently caress you to the player.

I haven't played the latest version very much, but I used to use this simple strategy:
  • If an eel is next to you, hit it.
  • If it flees, throw a dart at it and move on. If there are two, throw one at each. If you think you can kill it with another dart throw, throw another dart.
  • If it doesn't flee, and you're less than 75%, move away. Otherwise, hit it again.
  • If you're low health, don't hit X near water.
  • Keep an eye on your stupid monkey near water.

Eels flee a bunch, use that.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous
There's a pretty good FTL thread here with lots of excellent advice, if anyone needs some.

3 neat tricks:
  • You can pause and think/micromanage while the game is paused. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.
  • You can run away if the enemy stronger than you. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.
  • You can make node-links visible without being in the node, it's in the game options. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



I'm considering getting Risk of Rain on Steam since it's more than just a demo and whatever now. Have they touched up on it and fixed the weird balance issues that some people were talking about earlier when the demo came out?

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

Agent Kool-Aid posted:

I'm considering getting Risk of Rain on Steam since it's more than just a demo and whatever now. Have they touched up on it and fixed the weird balance issues that some people were talking about earlier when the demo came out?

You can check on the Risk of Rain thread. AFAIK the game is very much completed, but balance is a matter of some classes being better at SP while others at MP.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



Thanks! I had no idea there was a dedicated thread.

dis astranagant
Dec 14, 2006

The demo is mostly unbalanced by the lack of available items and some really asinine boss hp scaling where 15 minutes in the demo and bosses will have more hp than they'll have in 70 minutes of the full version.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

my dad posted:

You can make node-links visible without being in the node, it's in the game options. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.
I still do not even begin to understand why this is not on by default.

Yngwie Mangosteen
Aug 23, 2007
Just in case anyone cares, the Crawl thread just restarted.

Crawl 0.13 FoIE GrAs: You are engorged.

Bobo the Red
Aug 14, 2004
Lay off the marmot

my dad posted:

[*] You can make node-links visible without being in the node, it's in the game options. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.
[/list]

I wish I had known this sooner. At this point, it would feel too much like cheating

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
It's not default since in earlier versions it wasn't there to begin with. It's pseudo-cheating, sure, but then so is getting trapped in dead-end nodes early in a sector.

lesbian baphomet
Nov 30, 2011

IronicDongz posted:

I still do not even begin to understand why this is not on by default.

I'm not certain, but I think this was because it got patched into the options not too long after release.

e;fb, and apparently so.

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA
May 29, 2008

Welp. Running into a shadow at 100' in Sil sure is a thing.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:

Welp. Running into a shadow at 100' in Sil sure is a thing.

You were wearing an amulet of haunted dreams?

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA
May 29, 2008

uPen posted:

You were wearing an amulet of haunted dreams?

Hadn't found an amulet or ring yet, I think. No big loss because it was < 5 minutes in.

lordfrikk
Mar 11, 2010

Oh, say it ain't fuckin' so,
you stupid fuck!

my dad posted:

  • You can make node-links visible without being in the node, it's in the game options. This is very important and useful, and you should do it.

Well, drat.

Chinook
Apr 11, 2006

SHODAI

I know this isn't exactly a roguelike, but it claims to have rougelike-ish elements, and it's like $1 today (and has been green lit on Steam):
https://indiegamestand.com/

It's called Tower of Guns, and I think it's been mentioned either here or in the early FPS thread before.

MrBims
Sep 25, 2007

by Ralp
I haven't played it yet, but just so there's no confusion, if you buy from Indie Game Stand make an account first. If you just go ahead and buy, it makes an account without giving you a password and you have to have it emailed to you so you can make a new one.

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doctorfrog
Mar 14, 2007

Great.

Chinook posted:

I know this isn't exactly a roguelike, but it claims to have rougelike-ish elements, and it's like $1 today (and has been green lit on Steam):
https://indiegamestand.com/

It's called Tower of Guns, and I think it's been mentioned either here or in the early FPS thread before.

I jumped on this last night, and plan to fire it up today. I don't expect a whole heck of a lot. The style is certainly nice, with that Borderlands tin shack look, but it just looks like Random FPS: The Game. I'm not expecting a whole lotta layers here beyond maybe upgradable guns (yawn).

edit: quick impressions:600MB UDK game. Early access means having to hunt around for the executable.

This is only 10 minutes of playing and may not give the game full credit for what it is or hopes to be.

You unlock guns as you go along. You also unlock "perks." The majority of these are hidden away. We'll see how that works.

The hand-drawn style looks unique, and has an inborn humor to it.

Gameplay so far is similar to Serious Sam: lots of things coming at you, a lot of moving backwards while strafing and shooting.

In spite of the hand-drawn look to the game, it doesn't appear to have much personality beyond the hugbots. I saw

The quick level I played looked pretty basic, but that might be a combination of it being in alpha, and being an early tutorial-ish level. It's also possible that the level layout might be a static range of interconnected rooms, but each room has a number of random elements in it, such as layout (in 3 dimensions) and enemy placement. If that's the case, then it'll boil down again to Serious Sam, in which you just move from arena to arena and deal with dudes trying to kill you. If it's that, it's not bad as an FPS random arena shooter, but not terribly deep.

Part of what drew me to the game were the dozens of cannons firing projectiles, reminded me of a Little Nemo comic strip.

edit2: This from the developer on the randomized level design:

quote:

I'd be happy to share a bit of the process, although it's not very impressive. Of note: I'm an environment-artist-turned-scripter, and although gameplay scripting is simple enough to do, true procedural room generation is still a bit beyond me (hence me calling it "random compositing" and not "procedural generation"). However, I can CRANK out levels like crazy, since that's relies on skills I've been using for years and years. So... the rooms in ToG are all handbuilt, and then a slot-machine style of randomization determines what the player gets for each room. Sometimes I break up rooms into sub elements that I stream in, which further randomizes the room, and then on top of the level generation there are many different mob population sets per room, with varying degrees of hand crafted and randomized variations so the rooms feel fresh. Likewise, any level pickups are randomized too, such as those found in secrets. All in all, the process is primitive and a bit 'brute force', but really allows me to focus on the things I know I can pull off. It's actually led to a nice result where the player naturally improves as they learn room layouts (which aligns with a core experience I was targetingr: player improvement through system knowledge in addition to just raw skill improvement). Anyway, although the system has limits it should get people their money's worth.

doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Nov 16, 2013

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