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Saagonsa posted:There's analyzing and speculating on the story, and then there's writing massive gently caress off posts about the politics of a comic book that probably don't even exist. e: I do regret cluttering threads with this sort of argument, though. Feel free to make some closing comments.
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Nov 23, 2013 04:08
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They drew another one earlier, this time for Annie:
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Nov 23, 2013 04:10
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this allusion meant posted:Well in both threads I'm mainly trying to establish why the massive strings of short posts on the subject are not really very good discussions because of their bad or ill-defined premises. If you don't like discussions about those subjects I can't really see why you would object to 1) seeing them in a concentrated, easier-to-avoid form, or 2) trying to shut down the more vacuous lines of discussion on those subjects that clutter up the thread with white noise. It's not like I'm the first one to bring up something like this in the thread. You can keep making them all you want. I'm not a mod, I can't stop you.
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Nov 23, 2013 04:23
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this allusion meant posted:The parts that seem to aesthetically recall historically-existing European fascism to me are the colors, the names (Eren probably comes from the German word for honor and not from the Turkish name), I think this is what gets most people in the mind set: military + german things =  Personally I think that the author's choice of location has to do with the two motivating factors. First, there is the phenomena that I've observed where Japanese people are enamoured by European style. It has historic roots dating back to at least the nineteenth century, and we can see it today with the gothic/Victorian style craze. The second motivating factor has to do with: quote:and okay yeah almost everything about Erwin seriously what the gently caress. I think the author had the story he wanted to tell in mind, and the themes he wanted to present, and felt that a german setting offered him a rich variety of symbols to pull from. I don't think it's a coincidence that Erwin Smith shares the same name as Rommel. In this last chapter, we a lot of development for him in that bedside scene. When he learned that the 'other' Titans he was fighting were actually humans, he had a breakdown and realized what a monster he has been--and must continue to be for the survival of the people behind the walls. Thinking about this reminds me of one of my other favorite shows to watch, The Walking Dead. That's kind of a thing they hint at over and over again, that the zombies may retain some sense of their old self after they 'turn'. So far, each attempt to bring back the zombies' humanity has failed, but I would be very surprised if at some point the main characters don't find a cure and don't have to deal with the fact that they killed thousands of people each that they could have saved.
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Nov 23, 2013 06:15
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visceril posted:When Erwin learned that the 'other' Titans he was fighting were actually humans, he had a breakdown and realized what a monster he has been--and must continue to be for the survival of the people behind the walls.
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Nov 23, 2013 06:34
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Jackard posted:Is that really what it was? Levi's response gave it a different vibe. It depends on the translation. I read one terrible scanlation where Erwin just went 'lol' and Levi had a WTF reaction, and another where Erwin says something to the effect of "I knew it all along" while doing crazy nervous laughter, and Levi is shocked to see his commander break down like that. Remember this is a dude who up until this point--after having his loving arm bitten off--has been all serious, no mess.
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Nov 23, 2013 06:43
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visceril posted:It depends on the translation. I read one terrible scanlation where Erwin just went 'lol' and Levi had a WTF reaction, and another where Erwin says something to the effect of "I knew it all along" while doing crazy nervous laughter, and Levi is shocked to see his commander break down like that. I haven't read any scanlations, but the scene as I remember it from reading the raws cast Erwin in a very sinister light, with Levy calling Erwin a freak, and Levi and Hanji and Pixis all working together to keep him from seeing Eren or Historia. In particular the one cut where Hanji goes "Huh?" while Levi and Erwin have their mini-argument that struck me as pretty meaningful, especially since right after Erwin asks after Eren and Historia and Hanji's the one to try and deflect him. Either way, though, there's no point during the scene where Erwin implies he'd known it all along, or suspected it at all.
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Nov 23, 2013 08:14
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this allusion meant posted:A bit of conjecture that could support a fascist reading: possibly the titans are the result of something like in the one-off--a coordinated campaign to destroy existing humanity because of the perceived flaws of its nature. Maybe the idea is to convert all humans into titans, a form in which they are near-indestructible but, due to lack of intelligence or ambition, carry out no aggression except against the old humans and on the orders of some superpower wielded by the holder of the "coordinate" and bigfoot (whatever his deal is). Here, a plot by scientific and cultural elites to transform humanity into mindless monsters, supposedly for a greater good and to protect them from their own nature, does seem to have characteristics of a racist, conspiratorial narrative typical of modern fascists. For a while, I was a bit worried about this being a possibility, but the more I think about the more I suspect it's not the case. It would call for the inner-wall conspirators (the wall cult, the aristocracy, the king) the outer-wall conspirators (BRA, shifter village), to be aligned with one another in some fashion, in some goal or behaviour. But instead, it seems that both groups of conspirators have distinctly different goals. The shifters seek their own manner of freedom, the wallists seek control, and they both have understandable reasons for their actions. Yes, even BRA, the author spent alot of ink characterising them and telling us that while these people are monsters and mass murderers and the External Enemy, but they are nonetheless just as human as we. A proper fascist story would have the enemy utterly objectionable, impossible to understand, and deserving of nothing but death. Instead, this story is much more humanistic, people behave in ways that reflect their motivations and experiences, instead of neatly aligning into the categories of Us and Other.
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Nov 23, 2013 08:19
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Phobophilia posted:For a while, I was a bit worried about this being a possibility, but the more I think about the more I suspect it's not the case. It would call for the inner-wall conspirators (the wall cult, the aristocracy, the king) the outer-wall conspirators (BRA, shifter village), to be aligned with one another in some fashion, in some goal or behaviour. But instead, it seems that both groups of conspirators have distinctly different goals. The shifters seek their own manner of freedom, the wallists seek control, and they both have understandable reasons for their actions. Yes, even BRA, the author spent alot of ink characterising them and telling us that while these people are monsters and mass murderers and the External Enemy, but they are nonetheless just as human as we. True - fascist narratives tend to show the enemy as either sinister manipulators (the Jews) or mindless, unutterably evil hordes (black people), both of which are quite irredeemablle as a consequence of their nature being essentially evil, and can be slaughtered en masse with not only guiltlessness, but satisfaction. AOT's closest parallel to the latter, feral Titans, may be horrible brainless monsters, but the last few chapters have shown us that they're probably all helpless victims as well. Compare Fist of the North Star, which is not exactly fascist, but more closely aligned to fascist thought than Attack on Titan, and its treatment of the barbarian hordes who roam its world. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Nov 23, 2013 |
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Nov 23, 2013 12:12
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Deliberately non-characterising "enemies" is an extremely common thing in stories. SnK a piece of media which is less guilty of this than most. A fun fact I just recently realised. I expect Bert and Ernie to turn up extremely soon, and pop open the inner wall like it's no thang. Like they could have done at any time. This will force yet another evacuation into the underground city. Except... they just burnt through their emergency food stockpiles this week. Will we get a scenario where the Last Hopes of Humanity, the recon corps, have to forcibly requisition food from starving civilians so to carry out their mission? I don't know. Tune in next to find out more!
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Nov 23, 2013 13:10
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AnonSpore posted:I haven't read any scanlations, but the scene as I remember it from reading the raws cast Erwin in a very sinister light, with Levy calling Erwin a freak, and Levi and Hanji and Pixis all working together to keep him from seeing Eren or Historia. In particular the one cut where Hanji goes "Huh?" while Levi and Erwin have their mini-argument that struck me as pretty meaningful, especially since right after Erwin asks after Eren and Historia and Hanji's the one to try and deflect him. It could go either way, I suppose. Erwin could be a sort of mentor for Armin, in both a "this is what it takes" and a "what not to do" sense. I want to point out, though, that that would make Erwin the only truly 'monstrous' human. Levi, Pixis, Hange, and Hannes all have flaws that they try to overcome to help each other and humanity--and the shifter titans appear to be going through the same struggle. Even the Lazy Unicorn Brigade is 'human' in its fearful and decadent ways. The normal titans are pretty clearly victims at this point. We saw that Connie's mom still knew who Connie was immediately after she turned, and Ymir was able to actually regain her humanity (her saying she 'died' I interpret to mean as she became a mindless titan for a number of years). Everyone in the story is grappling with their flaws to either overcome them or are doing things they'd rather not do because they know it's right. If Erwin is 'a freak' that enjoys his sociopathy, that would make him unique in that regard
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Nov 23, 2013 15:15
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Phobophilia posted:Deliberately non-characterising "enemies" is an extremely common thing in stories. SnK a piece of media which is less guilty of this than most. It's been a bit since I've read the chapter, but wasn't the food running out thing a situation that people in a bunker within Wall Rose were in?
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Nov 23, 2013 16:12
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Phobophilia posted:Deliberately non-characterising "enemies" is an extremely common thing in stories. SnK a piece of media which is less guilty of this than most. Yeah, they might just do it in a bid to save Annie. And God forbid if Annie's dad comes along 
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Nov 23, 2013 16:41
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Anyone have a list of additions/changes/differences going from the end of the show to its equivalent point in the manga? I'd like to get reading the manga, but I don't really want to reread the first 25 eps worth of content if it's pretty much the same.
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Nov 25, 2013 00:21
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Start at Chapter 33. You'll get the Annie/Eren Titan fight again, but the manga goes somewhat differently. From there on out, all new.
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Nov 25, 2013 00:29
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Darth Walrus posted:True - fascist narratives tend to show the enemy as either sinister manipulators (the Jews) or mindless, unutterably evil hordes (black people), both of which are quite irredeemablle as a consequence of their nature being essentially evil, and can be slaughtered en masse with not only guiltlessness, but satisfaction. Uuuh... I'm pretty sure sinister manipulators and mindless evil hordes are common villian tropes on any media regardless of political stance. Also, aren't you implying that every zombie apocalypse story is fascist narrative?
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Nov 27, 2013 11:55
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Petiso posted:Uuuh... I'm pretty sure sinister manipulators and mindless evil hordes are common villian tropes on any media regardless of political stance. Also, aren't you implying that every zombie apocalypse story is fascist narrative? I'm saying that those are necessary for a fascist narrative, and that SNK does not play them straight makes it far less likely that it is fascist. A work with those is not necessarily fascist, but a work without them is highly unlikely to be fascist. Mind you, the mindless evil hordes of science-fiction and fantasy are often inherited from earlier works where they were more direct stand-ins for inferior, degenerate races - Robert E. Howard's stories, for instance, were mostly built around his own proto-fascist racial theories, Lovecraft needs no introduction, and E. E. Smith, father of space opera, was a big fan of genocide and eugenics.
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Nov 27, 2013 12:11
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Petiso posted:Uuuh... I'm pretty sure sinister manipulators and mindless evil hordes are common villian tropes on any media regardless of political stance. Also, aren't you implying that every zombie apocalypse story is fascist narrative? I once read a nice observation on the fascist view of its enemies: they're forever cursed to both underestimate and overestimate them. On one hand, the enemy has to be clearly inferior, "impure", degenerate and whatnot, so that there is no question that they have to be exterminated for the sake of the "true" ideology. On the other hand, the enemy has to be overwhelmingly powerful to justify the fascist's upheaval of society - after all, they're such a threat, drastic measures have to be taken. The result is that fascists suck at battles - what is to be expected, when you use an alleged enemy + propaganda as a justification for your actual goals. Also, I'm sure zombie apocalypse stories can slip into fascist motives easily once the zombies are "dehumanized" enough. Like, when people start celebrating and ritualizing the fight, when moral conflicts are ignored and people use the necessity for battle as a political tool. It's certainly possible. It all depends on how the zombies are treated and how the characters deal with battles, I guess.
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Nov 27, 2013 12:15
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Whoever scanned this mistook Nanaba for a dude (although to be fair, that's what I did at first too when I first saw her in Chapter 38).
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Nov 28, 2013 12:49
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DerLeo posted:The weirdly fascistic thing that strikes me is the setting. The semi-idealized pastoral life combined with advanced military technology (3DMG)? That stands out to me and I can't get it to fit in many other boxes. That would be romanticism. The technology comes from Japan's relative comfort with artifice compared to the West; the idea that there is a binary opposition between the natural and artificial is a relatively recent Western cultural hangup. Western romanticism has tended towards mystification of nature as (kind of ironically) supernatural. It probably isn't a coincidence that this facilitates commodification. Two major strains of Western thought that attempted to reconcile our ideas about nature and technology have been communism and fascism. All major Western ideologies in the Twentieth Century have been influenced by romanticism, however. Also, whoever was dismissing analyzing "kid‘s cartoons" or whatever- its kind of funny that there was a comic about how inappropriate this show is for kids on the same page as that comic. Literally saying that the communication of ideas isn't worth thinking about just comes off as stupid, not level headed or whatever. I expect better quality mockery of my nerdy hobbies from goons 
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Nov 28, 2013 14:26
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Petiso posted:Uuuh... I'm pretty sure sinister manipulators and mindless evil hordes are common villian tropes on any media regardless of political stance. Also, aren't you implying that every zombie apocalypse story is fascist narrative? Zombie stories typically are fascist narratives. They allow the audience to fantasize, guilt free, about being Randian Ubersmench and killing off all poor people and minorities who hold them back. This is why zombies are so popular with white middle class male libertarian reddit types. The same thing is true with orks and bug aliens who nerds also love to kill so much.
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Nov 28, 2013 19:42
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Taser Gator posted:Zombie stories typically are fascist narratives. They allow the audience to fantasize, guilt free, about being Randian Ubersmench and killing off all poor people and minorities who hold them back. This is why zombies are so popular with white middle class male libertarian reddit types. The same thing is true with orks and bug aliens who nerds also love to kill so much. That sounds like a ton of projection there buddy.
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Nov 29, 2013 06:58
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Taser Gator posted:Zombie stories typically are fascist narratives. They allow the audience to fantasize, guilt free, about being Randian Ubersmench and killing off all poor people and minorities who hold them back. This is why zombies are so popular with white middle class male libertarian reddit types. The same thing is true with orks and bug aliens who nerds also love to kill so much. You must be a riot at parties.
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Nov 29, 2013 07:21
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Taser Gator posted:Zombie stories typically are fascist narratives. They allow the audience to fantasize, guilt free, about being Randian Ubersmench and killing off all poor people and minorities who hold them back. This is why zombies are so popular with white middle class male libertarian reddit types. The same thing is true with orks and bug aliens who nerds also love to kill so much. So what video games do you like to play? Because that pretty much rules out every fantasy RPG, every sci fi strategy and FPS game. I guess that leaves... simulators and puzzles. EDIT: Wait no, SimCity presents a parable of the idealized, sanitized, white suburban middle-class utopia, while Cities In Motion is a nightmare of totalitarianism as it challenges the player to make the trains run on time! DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 07:23
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This is a genuinely problematic thing that pervades popular culture and just so happens to be a pillar of fascistic thought, sorry you nerds are offended by introspection about the messages within the media you consume. Don't worry, liking this kind of thing doesn't guarantee your are an actual fascist. It just means part of you thinks like one. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2013 07:38
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Hold on folks. If he knows exactly why people like zombie movies, he's obviously a mind reader. Maybe he can read Isayama's mind and tell us what's in the basement.Phobophilia posted:This is a genuinely problematic thing that pervades popular culture and just so happens to be a pillar of fascistic thought, sorry you nerds are offended by introspection about the messages within the media you consume. There's a huge difference between "this aspect of media can possibly be interpreted in a certain way to have some not-so-great implications" and "people like something because they're horrible human beings who want to murder minorities". Saying the latter makes you a hideous pretentious cockbag. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 07:38
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Good zombie stories are about the fragility of civilization in the face of entropy and how humanity can transform into a perversion of itself. Bad zombie stories like the kind you'd read in circa '04 GBS or Arfcom or the multitude of zombie survival forums on the internet are indeed incredibly fascist.
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Nov 29, 2013 10:27
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Yeah, there's multiple narratives in how zombie stories work, from fear of mortality, to critiques of consumerism and consumption, to an innate fear of your fellow people. The latter most one shows up a lot in the modern context because of a lot of post-9/11, post-austerity fears of the modern way of life having an inherent sensationalism about tipping-point local and international politics. Zombies are simultaneously ourselves and the faceless mob, and they can represent how individuals we think we trust can just as easily become aspects of a faceless mass of anger and destruction, deprived of individualism (which is a prized trait of the modern world.) Because this absence of individuality is also an aspect of stereotype, there's a lot of zombie fiction that plays rather easily into narratives about fears of The Other, whether they be minorities, lower classes, or mainstream culture. AOT embodies a lot of these themes, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the first people we can see directly turned into Titans are also representative of the outcast, the forgotten and the oppressed. AOT also shares a lot of narratives about how quickly people are to turn on eachother in bad situations in large numbers, and the fear of the upper-classes of the potential destructive ability of the lower classes to rebel, and thus using their control over that population to ensure the problem consumes itself. A zombie narrative CAN have facist elements, and some do (World War Z is loving awful for this, by the way) but they can also embody other ideologies. AOT specifically has a narrative about the zombies being largely misunderstood and mysterious, and often asks for sympathy with them as often as it asks for judgement. We're meant to simultaneously condemn their actions, as outsiders, but then begin to view them as potential insiders ('Titans inside the walls' is a double-meaning really, both literally and figuratively.) who have deeper and more meaningful motivations behind what they do. edit: Just to keep going, a lot of Japanese sci-fi post WW2 revolved around the fear of nature being somehow corrupted by our actions. Japanese mythology has a lot of weight in the idea of spirituality being embodied by nature, and thus as a result failing to respect this nature might cause it to physically destroy us with its sheer size and overwhelming capacity for destruction. It's a very small society that prizes a lot of old traditions, a lot of which include respecting ones own society, but also ones own environment as sacred things. With globalization and multiple generations, the symbolism of the 'giant monster' has largely been emptied in the process of commodification and lost a lot of this meaning. AOT sort of blends these two concepts, a respect for nature, and a respect for society, and returns to this theme of the disrespected and damaged being massive, unknowable and wildly destructive. The Titans co-exist with the natural, but they are also revered as religious symbols, and it's not that they are destroying people, but society through their actions, and it increasingly seems that they do this because of some action on our part that has not been recompensated for. It's probably not going to be any giant plot twist at this point that the Titans were man-made to begin with, and their rampage will not be stopped when they're destroyed, but rather when the root cause of their creation is addressed. Rei_ fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 12:18
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I think a big part of what makes Shingeki no Kyojin hook people in so well is that Eren is this little poo poo who life just loved to kick in the balls repeatedly until he became an Avatar of seething rage against the system. He's every genocidal fantasy fueled by frustration against The Enemy in a tiny little human package. It is why the first appearance of the Rage Titan is such a powerful moment. What makes him interesting is that he consistently fucks up and gets people around him killed, and at some point is going to have to grow into something more of a character. Kind of how like Reiner started off as this cool big brother figure everyone looked up to and turned out to be a mass murderer on the inside, but in reverse. I don't think Shingeki no Kyojin is a fascist story, it is way too self aware for that. It just has the trappings of them, plus a few references to controversial historical figures from Isayama. But Isayama's supposed nationalism is a whole different can of worms, really.
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Nov 29, 2013 12:22
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As I recall, Isayama's inspiration for the Titans was an encounter with a guy who was too drunk to communicate. So someone who would ordinarily be a peer, but transformed into The Other by a breakdown of communication. Zombie movies definitely touch on that, with Pontypool being the most explicit example that comes to mind.
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Nov 29, 2013 14:18
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Hodgepodge posted:That would be romanticism. The technology comes from Japan's relative comfort with artifice compared to the West; the idea that there is a binary opposition between the natural and artificial is a relatively recent Western cultural hangup. Western romanticism has tended towards mystification of nature as (kind of ironically) supernatural. It probably isn't a coincidence that this facilitates commodification. This is a lot more interesting than the umpteenth fascism discussion. Can you expand on this difference between Western and Japanese (Is is just Japanese, or are there similar cultural tropes in China, Korea, etc. as well?) views on the opposition of nature and artifice? I'm obviously no expert on it, but I was always under the impression that Japan had a similar view on it to the West, looking at things like Studio Ghibli's Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, that show clear contrasts between nature and artifice. I'd definitely like to hear more on the subject, if you don't mind?
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Nov 30, 2013 19:53
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AdjectiveNoun posted:This is a lot more interesting than the umpteenth fascism discussion. Can you expand on this difference between Western and Japanese (Is is just Japanese, or are there similar cultural tropes in China, Korea, etc. as well?) views on the opposition of nature and artifice? I'd say Miyazaki's not so much against technology or progress, as the consequences of taking it to what he sees as extremes. Spirited Away's bathhouse and that... walking thing in Howl's Moving Castle both follow a kinda-sorta steampunk aesthetic; no ill in particular seems to come from that. I'd say his primary criticism is for people who go to any lengths for wealth and power, rather than the idea of technology itself.
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Nov 30, 2013 22:03
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AdjectiveNoun posted:This is a lot more interesting than the umpteenth fascism discussion. Can you expand on this difference between Western and Japanese (Is is just Japanese, or are there similar cultural tropes in China, Korea, etc. as well?) views on the opposition of nature and artifice? I'm not an expert on Japanese society by any means. The general idea I've picked up is that the idea of objects, especially natural objects, having an inherent spirit translates into a greater degree of comfort with ideas like artificial intelligence and cybernetics. On the other hand, pollution, especially radiation, is seen as sort of a failure on the part of humanity to properly respect nature, rather than as evidence of an inherent opposition between the artificial and natural.
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Dec 1, 2013 01:50
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Dec 2, 2013 16:28
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All the humans in Trost district loved Christmas a lot, but the Titans, who lived outside the wall, did not.
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Dec 2, 2013 17:57
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red plastic cup posted:All the humans in Trost district loved Christmas a lot, They stomped all the stockings, they ate all the trees, with the cookies and milk, there came desperate pleas!
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Dec 2, 2013 18:05
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And what happened then? Well, in Trost they say The small boy's bloodlust grew three sizes that day.
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Dec 2, 2013 18:37
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Then one desperate titan attack, Pixis came to say: "Eren, with your titan might, Won't you plug the wall tonight?"
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Dec 2, 2013 22:57
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I'm screaming from a bite (vicious!)...
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Dec 3, 2013 00:08
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How the Titans Ate Christmas.
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Dec 3, 2013 00:25
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