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Fangz posted:I wonder if Tarquin would be acting differently if he knew that Elan was guaranteed a 'happy ending' by word of Prophecy, not merely a Pyrrhic, bittersweet victory like he's aiming to achieve. Elan already had his happy ending, so anything goes. (I still think he'll end up with a real happy ending, but I'm glad that particular prophecy has been nullified to keep the possibilities open and the tension real.)
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Dec 8, 2013 21:35
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I'm sure Haley has already given him plenty of happy endings. (Booo! Hiss!)
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Dec 8, 2013 22:53
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Trapezium Dave posted:Elan already had his happy ending, so anything goes. I agree; IMO that's just a fake-out for prophecy 'spergers. It also draws a line between a 'fantasy' happy ending where nothing is risked or lost, and a real one. Rich, dropping science about Tarquin (people complaining about his 'sudden character change'): quote:I can't think of anything more boring than a character who always wins and never gets emotionally impacted by anything. Edit: And a follow up quote:
Yet another edit: quote:
Oh, hell, just go read the thread. There's some fascinating stuff about how Rich views Tarquin, and evil. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Dec 8, 2013 |
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Dec 8, 2013 23:15
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Rich's answers might be really interesting, but I don't know if I am willing to suffer through the oots-forum for them. Even the bits you posted make me grown. They are pretty much nerd arguing 101.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:41
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I'm not sure to either love the fact we get a very good look at the creative process with his posts or hate the fact this to some extent restricts legitimate discussion and alternate interpretation of the text. I cited 'Death of the Author' myself as a thing I like but it isn't exactly feasible to ignore everything the writer thinks about his work. That and him wading into the cesspool that is his divisive fanbase just seems to only serve to slow down his output. 
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Dec 8, 2013 23:49
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"Death of the author" is fine when analyzing a work. It is completely worthless when arguing with the author that he is making his characters act out of character. It doesn't work that way. That isn't Death of the Author, it's just being upset that the story isn't what you want it to be.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not sure to either love the fact we get a very good look at the creative process with his posts or hate the fact this to some extent restricts legitimate discussion and alternate interpretation of the text. I cited 'Death of the Author' myself as a thing I like but it isn't exactly feasible to ignore everything the writer thinks about his work. He bails about a page after the link. But yeah, while I like the red meat aspect of it, it's always a mixed feeling seeing behind the mask. I'd guess the reason for him being so open is that we're a few strips away from the end of the arc (Tarquin is out of allies and out of time) after a very long arc so he's letting some cats out of the bag (or at least pointing at the cats that have been let out of the bag and saying THEY ARE CATS). quote:[That and him wading into the cesspool that is his divisive fanbase just seems to only serve to slow down his output. The GITP forums have improved as far as I can tell from my occasional visits, it's normally just a doofus or two arguing with the group. And there's been some pretty hardcore spergin' in this thread so it's not like goons are immune.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:55
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ImpAtom posted:"Death of the author" is fine when analyzing a work. It is completely worthless when arguing with the author that he is making his characters act out of character. It doesn't work that way. That isn't Death of the Author, it's just being upset that the story isn't what you want it to be. Well, yes and no. It's also about how critical analysis cannot be strictly 'wrong' as long as you support your argument, even if it goes against what the author meant.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:01
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WeaponBoy posted:Well, yes and no. It's also about how critical analysis cannot be strictly 'wrong' as long as you support your argument, even if it goes against what the author meant. Nerd criticism of OOTS tends more towards IF I HAD PLAYED THOSE CHARACTERS I WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT STUPID THING. I think there's room for some fruitful DotA style critique of the strip, particularly (for e.g.) around the roles of fathers, but it's always gonna be a bit hamstrung by the story being incomplete. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 00:09
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Speaking of hardcore sperging, I wonder if there are rules for broken arms in D&D. 
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Dec 9, 2013 00:14
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ImpAtom posted:"Death of the author" is fine when analyzing a work. It is completely worthless when arguing with the author that he is making his characters act out of character. It doesn't work that way. That isn't Death of the Author, it's just being upset that the story isn't what you want it to be. I meant about his posting in general, but statements that imply that Tarquin doesn't actually know military strategy come across as odd. quote:Nerd criticism of OOTS tends more towards IF I HAD PLAYED THOSE CHARACTERS I WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT STUPID THING. I think there's some fruitful DotA style critique of the strip, particularly (for e.g.) around the roles of fathers, but it's always gonna be a bit hamstrung by the story being incomplete. Does this still happen? This is one of those things where its "If your under stress and under fire you are NOT coming up with the most optimal thing to do every 6 seconds." quote:Speaking of hardcore sperging, I wonder if there are rules for broken arms in D&D. Second Edition, iirc someone posted. Since Tarquin's group seem to be old timers.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:Does this still happen? This is one of those things where its "If your under stress and under fire you are NOT coming up with the most optimal thing to do every 6 seconds."
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Dec 9, 2013 00:31
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I love the implied fact that Tarquin loved his children only as a plot device. If they refuse to play their part, murder everything.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:38
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Death of the Author is a perfectly valid literary analysis technique, but be damned sure that said Author will do whatever he can to gently caress with you if he gets wind of it.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:40
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Not to mention that this particular argument is less "Death of the Author" and more "I know better than the Author". Sure, you can develop your own analyses of a work, but you really can't really fault the author for not following your interpretation.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:43
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Spiderdrake posted:Haha man, given there's a caster fight about to crop up I'm willing to wager we'll see a whole rout of complaining about the casters not having optimized god mode builds and/or X or Y should(n't) have won because if I was playing them they'd definitely have spell B C or D. I admit that in any fiction it can be frustrating to see the authorial intent swing how you perceived a fight would go but the OoTS forums redefines it to the point of absurdity. This fight might be slightly better than some, I can easily see it as an "either way" thing. Psionics require a wizard to be a little prepared against, such as when V cast Mind Blank in preparation of fighting the Ancient Black Dragon. I don't know if V has a suitable transmutation spell nor if Protection from Evil would work effectively against stunlock'ing combo's Laurin could probably do. On the other hand as we saw with the Dragon and fake Xykon fight V can potentially lock Laurin down for at least a round with Forcecage, like with the Sorceress and Zz-maester' fights I suspect V could chain an effective strategy that forces Laurin to attrite away the remainder of her power points. I think whats key is that apparently its V's move first so V has the advantage for any sort of probably round one knock out blows, and vice versa once its Laurin's turn. I don't think either of them have that many buff's active (V's seems to have deliberately landed to avoid fall damage from a dispel). I believe its clearly V's fight to win but because narrative, i.e, this is when Tarquin will lose because plot, not strictly because of what we know of V or Laurin's build; which only at best let us speculate how the victory or defeat transpires. Also because people are really unsure of Laurin's abilities as despite her power spamming the hardcore dice rolling sliderulers can't seem to narrow her level down beyond "somewhere above 13". Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 00:50
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I cannot wait for Rich to just absolutely shred Tarquin in every physical and emotional sense. I wonder if it will be worth it to read the OoTS forums for tears.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:00
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Death of the Author is definitely a thing, but it doesn't mean that the author isn't an immense source of evidence for interpretation because if he's done his craft well then the intended interpretation should be the strongest and if he's done it less well/cared less about a single interpretation then his unconscious beliefs/influences are probably going to be the source of the variation from the intended meaning.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:14
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Alchenar posted:Death of the Author is definitely a thing, but it doesn't mean that the author isn't an immense source of evidence for interpretation because if he's done his craft well then the intended interpretation should be the strongest and if he's done it less well/cared less about a single interpretation then his unconscious beliefs/influences are probably going to be the source of the variation from the intended meaning. Yes. Rich is a very good craftsman when it comes to plot and character, and is happy to lay out the tools and show the strokes after he's done - this is really just anticipating the 'behind the scenes' essays he'll do for the printed volume of this arc (which, holy poo poo, I am buying the instant it drops).
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Dec 9, 2013 01:21
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sebmojo posted:Yes. Rich is a very good craftsman when it comes to plot and character, and is happy to lay out the tools and show the strokes after he's done - this is really just anticipating the 'behind the scenes' essays he'll do for the printed volume of this arc (which, holy poo poo, I am buying the instant it drops). It helps that his story world is one in which he can use magic to break normal causality anytime he wants.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:28
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Yeah, Burlew's a really smart guy who's put a tremendous amount of thought into this story and I don't see anyone matching him for that any time soon. More to the point, it feels really, well, TVTropes-ish to use "Death of the Author" to argue that a fact of the plot's minutia, as opposed to its underlying significance or message, was something other than what the author intended. You really have to work against the text itself to see "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" as fulfilling the prophecy in any way other than being four words that V said.Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand as we saw with the Dragon and fake Xykon fight V can potentially lock Laurin down for at least a round with Forcecage, like with the Sorceress and Zz-maester' fights I suspect V could chain an effective strategy that forces Laurin to attrite away the remainder of her power points. This wouldn't work here; Laurin can manifest Dimension Door as a move action so she'd be able to escape and attack in a single turn. Plus, Forcecage would be a much greater use of V's resources compared to Laurin's. If it's really V's turn first, I'm thinking she's going to start off with a Mind Blank (to stop Laurin from stunlocking) and a Quickened spell to test her defenses (like Malack did with Durkon). After that, it's probably going to be an interesting showcase of V's development--old V would have just rained fire and lightning everywhere, heedless of the collateral damage to the airship, but new V's probably going to be more tactical. (Of course, Disintegrate is still viable either way.)
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Dec 9, 2013 01:28
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Does V even know Mind blank? At the time, V had three epic level casters chained to V's soul.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:32
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I'm betting on Blackwing drops the lizard, V dismisses polymorph, all hell breaks loose, myself.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:33
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That's actually a pretty good idea as long as it's actually on the Psion when it happens. "Oh. no. a. lizard. Is that really the best you've got?" "Dismiss baleful polymorph"D-whatever crushing damage
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Dec 9, 2013 01:38
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V's definitely more mindful of collateral damage now, and that seems like the quickest way to destroy the airship that isn't directly Belkar or Elan's fault.Johnny Aztec posted:Does V even know Mind blank? At the time, V had three epic level casters chained to V's soul. Good point, I forgot it was such a high level spell. Globe of Invulnerability, maybe.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:44
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Carrasco posted:Yeah, Burlew's a really smart guy who's put a tremendous amount of thought into this story and I don't see anyone matching him for that any time soon. More to the point, it feels really, well, TVTropes-ish to use "Death of the Author" to argue that a fact of the plot's minutia, as opposed to its underlying significance or message, was something other than what the author intended. You really have to work against the text itself to see "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" as fulfilling the prophecy in any way other than being four words that V said. To be fair, though, the Kubota incident really could have fulfilled the prophecy beyond the obvious four words. The right person (Kubota, even if V didn't remember him) at the right place/time (just before he could start enacting his plan to escape justice, and only in the presence of someone who wouldn't rat V out) for all the wrong reasons (just for convenience's sake, and again, without even remembering who he even was).
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Dec 9, 2013 01:45
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Carrasco posted:You really have to work against the text itself to see "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" as fulfilling the prophecy in any way other than being four words that V said. While I don't disagree with you in the wider sense, I quite like those being the four words. They are the right words (they eliminate a stupid diversion) to the right person (Kubota was evil as poo poo with no redeeming qualities) for all the wrong reason (V had no idea who Kubota was and callously snuffed him out, showing how flawed his understanding of power was in a way that reflected his own weakness and lack of understanding). The action that the words represent leads directly to Darth V by estranging her from her team. And having them be spells is a witty twist (better than repeating 'I', imo, even though that had a meaning of its own). The fact that Rich has the four words being something else is irrelevant. The prophecy works either way, which is an important structural element of the tale as a whole.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:46
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I hate that we've gone from "Tarquin gently caress yeah villain of the year every year" to "oh my god, just die already".
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Dec 9, 2013 01:54
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sebmojo posted:While I don't disagree with you in the wider sense, I quite like those being the four words. They are the right words (they eliminate a stupid diversion) to the right person (Kubota was evil as poo poo with no redeeming qualities) for all the wrong reason (V had no idea who Kubota was and callously snuffed him out, showing how flawed his understanding of power was in a way that reflected his own weakness and lack of understanding). The action that the words represent leads directly to Darth V by estranging her from her team. And having them be spells is a witty twist (better than repeating 'I', imo, even though that had a meaning of its own). How does "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" leads to V archiving ultimate arcane power?
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Dec 9, 2013 02:03
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It alienates him from his teammates, meaning he has to fly off and be by himself, so the dragon can attack and threaten his family, so the fiends have the lever they have been waiting for. E: I'm not saying DGoW is the only answer, just that there's a plausible case to be made for it. quote:I hate that we've gone from "Tarquin gently caress yeah villain of the year every year" to "oh my god, just die already". He's going to be villain of the year in retrospect, don't worry. People are just cranked up on the nauseating narrative tension of having NFI what's gonna happen next. This has been an incredible arc.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:08
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"Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." is where V tips over from being obsessed and alienating all of their friends and allies and just being generally unhealthy to being an outright monster. V murdered somebody and destroyed the remains simply because they were possibly an impediment to V's ends. I hate using TvTropes terms, but that's a huge step toward the moral event horizon, and it's the moment where V's brief turn toward evil rounds the first corner.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:16
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I wonder if, in ten or so years, we're start seeing real critical literary analysis of things like Order of the Stick or John Dies At The End.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:33
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On the other hand, "I... I must succeed" is where V directly and immediately achieves ultimate arcane power.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:46
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It's almost like prophecies are vague bullshit with debatable meanings that don't actually help you at all or something.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:52
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I really wish Rich just wrote "I. . . I must not fail" so that this discussion didn't exist.
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Dec 9, 2013 02:53
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^^^^^ That carries a different undertone, IMO. More fear than pride.The Leper Colon V posted:I wonder if, in ten or so years, we're start seeing real critical literary analysis of things like Order of the Stick or John Dies At The End. Is there even any real critical literary analysis of things lika The Invisibles or A Song of Ice and Fire? If the answer is "no", then I wouldn't hold my breath for internet comedic stories to be subjected to it any faster. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 02:55
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He inadvertently created something more interesting than what he intended, that happens all the time in everything
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Dec 9, 2013 03:00
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The Leper Colon V posted:I wonder if, in ten or so years, we're start seeing real critical literary analysis of things like Order of the Stick or John Dies At The End. You absolutely will. The only thing keeping people from taking webcomics all that seriously right now is that you still have a pre-Internet generation or two who aren't dead yet, and who are doing their absolute damnedest to be arbiters of culture. I've already seen people talking about OotS (John Rogers in particular) as one of the great fantasy works of our time. Which, to be fair, says a fair bit more about our time than about fantasy or about OotS, but the point remains that it's a remarkable achievement for a stick figure comic that broadly satirizes AD&D. NihilCredo posted:Is there even any real critical literary analysis of things lika The Invisibles or A Song of Ice and Fire? Well, yes.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:02
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From the reviews and the Amazon sneak peek this doesn't seem like critical analysis, more like a companion book (author interviews, explanation of references, etc.). NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 03:17
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Wanderer posted:You absolutely will. The only thing keeping people from taking webcomics all that seriously right now is that you still have a pre-Internet generation or two who aren't dead yet, and who are doing their absolute damnedest to be arbiters of culture. I've already seen people talking about OotS (John Rogers in particular) as one of the great fantasy works of our time. It's too bad about the beginning of the comic though. The first 100 strips don't really grab you and a lot of it is pretty meh if you aren't into D&D (or at least computer RPGs). Eventually the story breaks through, but starting with the "up a level, down a level" and weapon shrinkage from upgrading to a new version is only funny to RPG fans.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:21
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