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Shindragon posted:You shut the hell up. Michael Keaton was a great batman. I don't care for Batman Returns but anyone who doesn't think Batman '89 is a national treasure is a loving loon.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:33
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DrNutt posted:I don't care for Batman Returns but anyone who doesn't think Batman '89 is a national treasure is a loving loon. Yeah but that was almost entirely due to Jack Nicholson being awesome as the Joker since he was just Nicholson turned up to 11. And Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent, who supposedly took the role just to be Two-Face.
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Dec 10, 2013 09:59
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ToastyPotato posted:And the wonky out of character Two Face. And the neon aesthetics. Yeah, in retrospect, there were a lot of things about Batman Forever that were pretty goofy. Commissioner Gordon was absolutely useless and much older than usual, Riddler complains about not being able to kill Batman but never actually tries to kill him, etc. But it is balanced out by some other good things like the Riddler's riddles having an overarching hidden message, Robin's desire for revenge against his parents' killer fading away, Bruce getting over his parents' death, etc.
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Dec 10, 2013 13:34
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MrJacobs posted:Yeah but that was almost entirely due to Jack Nicholson being awesome as the Joker since he was just Nicholson turned up to 11. And Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent, who supposedly took the role just to be Two-Face. Most people were expecting Batman '89 to be an Adam West-style cheesefest, so the whole dark tone of the movie was a welcome surprise.
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Dec 10, 2013 14:05
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Something i'm not sure I care for about Batman as a whole is his emotional stability regarding his parents death. Would seeing your parents get killed really gently caress you up that bad, to make you want to turn into a bat? And if it did, wouldn't Alfred's first duty as his guardian be to commit that crazy bastard in Arkham? I think I prefer how Batman Begins deals with his pscyhe by showing how his parents death simply lead to a series of events that made him Batman, rather than the idea that Batman is thinking about his dead parents constantly while fighting thugs. When put in that light....Batman is loving creepy.
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Dec 10, 2013 14:12
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chaosapiant posted:Something i'm not sure I care for about Batman as a whole is his emotional stability regarding his parents death. Would seeing your parents get killed really gently caress you up that bad, to make you want to turn into a bat? And if it did, wouldn't Alfred's first duty as his guardian be to commit that crazy bastard in Arkham? I think I prefer how Batman Begins deals with his pscyhe by showing how his parents death simply lead to a series of events that made him Batman, rather than the idea that Batman is thinking about his dead parents constantly while fighting thugs. When put in that light....Batman is loving creepy. 
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Dec 10, 2013 14:34
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chaosapiant posted:I think I prefer how Batman Begins deals with his pscyhe by showing how his parents death simply lead to a series of events that made him Batman, rather than the idea that Batman is thinking about his dead parents constantly while fighting thugs. When put in that light....Batman is loving creepy. Once again, the animated series did it better. Batman isn't really Bruce's way of dealing with his parents' deaths, it's pretty much his way of shutting out all of the pain and disappointment in the world. He only actually decides to become Batman after being brutally jilted by the woman he was going to propose to. He surrounds himself with children and teenagers who idolize him and, when they grow up enough to question him, he drives them away. By the time we get to Batman Beyond he's a broken, bitter, crippled old man living alone with his dog, a creepy old recluse who still calls himself Batman in his head. His only path to redemption is to eventually pass on the mantle of Batman to someone who is almost literally himself. No happy ending, no running off to Italy with Selina, nothing. I mean, Jesus, even Frank Miller didn't go that dark.
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Dec 10, 2013 15:07
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This would be funnier if they actually worked in that Batman doesn't kill people but...still....funny as hell!
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Dec 10, 2013 16:46
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My LOL moment of this game so far is one of the optional Batcave conversations with Alfred. "Master Wayne, might I have a moment of your time?" *growls* "What do YOU WANT???" Whoa Batman wtf chill out buddy
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Dec 10, 2013 17:06
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Phylodox posted:Once again, the animated series did it better. Batman isn't really Bruce's way of dealing with his parents' deaths, it's pretty much his way of shutting out all of the pain and disappointment in the world. He only actually decides to become Batman after being brutally jilted by the woman he was going to propose to. He surrounds himself with children and teenagers who idolize him and, when they grow up enough to question him, he drives them away. By the time we get to Batman Beyond he's a broken, bitter, crippled old man living alone with his dog, a creepy old recluse who still calls himself Batman in his head. His only path to redemption is to eventually pass on the mantle of Batman to someone who is almost literally himself. No happy ending, no running off to Italy with Selina, nothing. I mean, Jesus, even Frank Miller didn't go that dark. And the worst part is that the series seems to imply that Dick is going to end up just like him. As I recall, Dick actually replaces Bruce as Terry's field operator in the comics.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:06
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IShallRiseAgain posted:I'd say its the flat-out best. Brave and the Bold Batman is a close second, and at the very least refreshing after 20-some years of brooding grimdark Batman.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:21
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raditts posted:Brave and the Bold Batman is a close second, and at the very least refreshing after 20-some years of brooding grimdark Batman. That show was awesome and I love how reading the episode descriptions makes the show sound completely insane: "When he ends up buried alive by Gentleman Ghost, Batman uses a special meditation to leave his body and has an encounter with Deadman. With some tricks learned by Deadman, Batman has Green Arrow and Speedy dig out his body before it runs out of air so they can stop Gentleman Ghost from raising an army of the dead" "Aquaman (depressed after being unable to stop a beluga whale hunt in the Bering Sea) accompanies Batman to the planet Rann to help space hero Adam Strange stop the Gordanian General Kreegar from obtaining the Eye of Zared and destroying Rann" "After thwarting Crazy Quilt's art robbery, Batman is taken to 19th century London by Jason Blood's magic to help Jason Blood when he's framed for a series of crimes committed by Jim Craddock who is stealing souls for Astaroth for immortality. Etrigan and Batman are aided in their investigations by the legendary Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson" "Batman chases Gorilla Grodd into the future (who used the technology of Professor Carter Nichols) and teams up with Kamandi to stop him. When Gorilla Grodd takes over leadership of the Gorilla Men from Ramjam, Batman tries to convince Prince Tuftan's father Great Caesar to help fight Gorilla Grodd"
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Dec 10, 2013 17:36
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DrNutt posted:I don't care for Batman Returns but anyone who doesn't think Batman '89 is a national treasure is a loving loon. Interesting Set Design with The Joker! (and also Batman)
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Dec 10, 2013 18:17
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Shindragon posted:You shut the hell up. Michael Keaton was a great batman. The character he was playing wasn't really Batman. His Batman voice may've been better than Christian Bale's, but that's about it. Tim Burton envisioned Batman as a small dweeb who puts on a crazy suit to pretend to be something he's not instead of being a guy incredibly dedicated to maximizing his skills(which is one of the core principals of the character), he doesn't seem especially concerned with other innocent life, he sort of blunders through most of the plot of those two movies, and, oh yeah, he kills people, too. Burton's movies have a reputation for being dark and gritty, but they're really not at all. They have more in common with the Adam West version than the comics from that time, with things like penguins with rockets strapped to their backs, a 10 minute long scene of Joker defacing artwork in a museum, and the music of Prince, among other things. Also, Tim Burton is really not good at directing action scenes. If you want to check out a review that covers beat for beat the point of view of those who don't like the Burton ones, Comics Alliance did a review series here: http://comicsalliance.com/tags/remedial-batmanology/ Not all of their criticisms are my criticisms, but they generally do a pretty good job of covering why I've never loved Tim Burton's work with Batman. EDIT: I also don't really agree with the take people are discussing where Batman is this selfish, unheroic character either. There's certainly a pathological element to the character, but it's more that he's sacrificed all possibilities for a "regular", "happy" life to protect the people of Gotham and try to stand up against the people who prey upon innocents. And in most interpretations he really doesn't think about his parents death all that much either, that's something that's devolved into a goofy meme more than it is a common representation of the character. If you'll notice, in Arkham Origins he's also haunted by the death of that random banker woman whose name he doesn't even know. He's haunted by every innocent life he's been unable to protect, not just his parents. They were just the catalyst and the thing that opened his eyes to the injustices of the world, not the only thing he cares about. Beeez fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 18:18
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Beeez posted:EDIT: I also don't really agree with the take people are discussing where Batman is this selfish, unheroic character either. There's certainly a pathological element to the character, but it's more that he's sacrificed all possibilities for a "regular", "happy" life to protect the people of Gotham and try to stand up against the people who prey upon innocents. And in most interpretations he really doesn't think about his parents death all that much either, that's something that's devolved into a goofy meme more than it is a common representation of the character. If you'll notice, in Arkham Origins he's also haunted by the death of that random banker woman whose name he doesn't even know. He's haunted by every innocent life he's been unable to protect, not just his parents. They were just the catalyst and the thing that opened his eyes to the injustices of the world, not the only thing he cares about. I hope the batmobile is electric-powered, because fossil fuels is murder too.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:28
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say by that.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:31
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An aside to how ridiculous some of the Batmen are : Just looking at that, I have to wonder if Bob Kane ever visualized something as goofy as a grown man in a grey and black suit with purple gloves just viciously beating the poo poo out of common street criminals.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:42
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Skoll posted:An aside to how ridiculous some of the Batmen are : 
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Dec 10, 2013 18:57
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redbackground posted:Um, that was exactly what Bob Kane had in mind. What the gently caress was wrong with Bob Kane, man? Just.. what in the gently caress.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:03
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Skoll posted:What the gently caress was wrong with Bob Kane, man? Just.. what in the gently caress. *gets up in the morning, has breakfast, walks past newstand for paper on way to work* Sorry, someone stole our last one! bob kane: gggggnnnnnnnnnnuuuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *draws revenge fantasy* Is the PC version of Origins mostly fixed yet, I want to play it and not have to start over because my save got corrupted.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:06
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U NO WUT IM SAIYAN posted:Is the PC version of Origins mostly fixed yet, I want to play it and not have to start over because my save got corrupted.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:08
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Beeez posted:EDIT: I also don't really agree with the take people are discussing where Batman is this selfish, unheroic character either. There's certainly a pathological element to the character, but it's more that he's sacrificed all possibilities for a "regular", "happy" life to protect the people of Gotham and try to stand up against the people who prey upon innocents. The problem with what you're saying is that there is no the Batman. There are as many different interpretations of him as there are people who've written him. For example, Adam West's Batman was absolutely motivated by healthy altruistm and civic duty, but there are just as many Batmans (Batmen?) who are, indeed, pathological. He's usually characterized as having an obsessive need for control to compensate for the feelings of helplessness his parents' deaths left him with, an obsession that's matured into full-blown psychosis in some versions of the character. As far as I'm concerned, the most interesting takes on Batman are the ones where his real heroism comes from struggling against his own nature, not always successfully.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:08
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Phylodox posted:As far as I'm concerned, the most interesting takes on Batman are the ones where his real heroism comes from struggling against his own nature, not always successfully. This is a big reason why portrayals of the character from Batman: The Animated Series, Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams, Steve Englehart/Marshal Rogers are some of my favorites. You get the sense that Batman is still driven by his parents' murder and it still might come up to haunt him sometimes (like a flashback or a bad dream), but he's basically got his poo poo together. Batman: The Animated Series Batman only really shows the scars in one or two episodes of the show's run and in Mask of the Phantasm. It's another reason why Batman: The Brave and the Bold was such a great show - Batman's psychological motivations really only take center stage once or twice and the rest of the time he gets to be heroic instead of just brooding. I like darker portrayals every now and then, but if there's too much in the same tone over and over again Batman gets kinda boring. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 19:16
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Skoll posted:Just looking at that, I have to wonder if Bob Kane ever visualized something as goofy as a grown man in a grey and black suit with purple gloves just viciously beating the poo poo out of common street criminals. I read something by him where he said that he originally wanted the character to have a black costume, but the ink all ran together into an incomprehensible mess. 1940s comic book art wasn't really all that sophisticated, I guess.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:30
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MeatwadIsGod posted:This is a big reason why portrayals of the character from Batman: The Animated Series, Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams, Steve Englehart/Marshal Rogers are some of my favorites. You get the sense that Batman is still driven by his parents' murder and it still might come up to haunt him sometimes (like a flashback or a bad dream), but he's basically got his poo poo together. Batman: The Animated Series Batman only really shows the scars in one or two episodes of the show's run and in Mask of the Phantasm. They may not dwell on them every episode, but if you look at the series as a whole they're very much there, especially in Batman Beyond. In retrospect, I cannot believe how loving dark they were allowed to get with that. Batman is explicitly shown to have left a trail of broken, dysfunctional people in his wake, enemies and allies alike. I mean, Jesus, the happiest ending was Mr. Freeze's because he got to die a heroic death. Try watching the last season of the animated series after finding out that Dick struck out on his own because Batman stole his girlfriend, who was Batgirl. That whole season becomes really kind of uncomfortable.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:41
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Seventh Arrow posted:I read something by him where he said that he originally wanted the character to have a black costume, but the ink all ran together into an incomprehensible mess. 1940s comic book art wasn't really all that sophisticated, I guess. Wasn't Spider-Man's costume also supposed to be Red and Black, but they used blue highlights for ink reasons and eventually dropped the black all together?
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Dec 10, 2013 19:43
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DrNutt posted:I don't care for Batman Returns but anyone who doesn't think Batman '89 is a national treasure is a loving loon. Both Batman and Batman Returns were great. Keaton was an excellent Batman/Bruce Wayne and Nicholson was phenomenal. The overall artistic design in the first two movies was just right for Batman as well. I don't care if Burton didn't read the comics, he nailed the movies. Forever just looked like a lovely neon night club. I didn't bother with Batman & Robin but apparently I should because it was so hilariously bad. Also Origins looks a lot like a Burton/Nolan film mashup in terms of style and I think it worked really well. I really need to replay this in NG+.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:11
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If anyone is picking this up used for PS3 and wants the pre-order Deathstroke DLC code, shoot me a PM.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:20
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Skoll posted:Just looking at that, I have to wonder if Bob Kane ever visualized something as goofy as a grown man in a grey and black suit with purple gloves just viciously beating the poo poo out of common street criminals. Actually Kane first pictured Batman wearing fuscia, a domino mask and had stiff angel wings but Bill Finger made a very strong case for making Batman darker. .... what could have been, man.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:28
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doctor 7 posted:Both Batman and Batman Returns were great. Keaton was an excellent Batman/Bruce Wayne and Nicholson was phenomenal. The overall artistic design in the first two movies was just right for Batman as well. I don't care if Burton didn't read the comics, he nailed the movies. The 1989 Batman is great because they got Tim Burton and Prince to work together on a Batman movie and the output somehow works.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:17
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I just wish Jack wasn't so.....thick. I like my Jokers wiry.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:20
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Phylodox posted:They may not dwell on them every episode, but if you look at the series as a whole they're very much there, especially in Batman Beyond. In retrospect, I cannot believe how loving dark they were allowed to get with that. Batman is explicitly shown to have left a trail of broken, dysfunctional people in his wake, enemies and allies alike. I mean, Jesus, the happiest ending was Mr. Freeze's because he got to die a heroic death. Try watching the last season of the animated series after finding out that Dick struck out on his own because Batman stole his girlfriend, who was Batgirl. That whole season becomes really kind of uncomfortable. The happiest endings were actually for: * The Ventriloquist, who manages to successfully reform from his mental illness involving Scarface. * Terry McGinnis, who becomes Batman, but still manages to have his family, Bruce as a father figure, and a soon to be wife in Dana according to the JLU episode "Epilogue".
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Dec 10, 2013 22:00
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The countering is this game is fine. Batman 89 looked great but was really weak story wise. Keaton was superb in the role.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:01
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Phylodox posted:The problem with what you're saying is that there is no the Batman. There are as many different interpretations of him as there are people who've written him. For example, Adam West's Batman was absolutely motivated by healthy altruistm and civic duty, but there are just as many Batmans (Batmen?) who are, indeed, pathological. He's usually characterized as having an obsessive need for control to compensate for the feelings of helplessness his parents' deaths left him with, an obsession that's matured into full-blown psychosis in some versions of the character. The majority of the big takes on the character do have a strong sense of justice and concern for the innocent as a central part of the character, though. The ones you're referring to, in which he's a total loon with little concern for anything but the Wayne murders, is the minority. Even Frank Miller's take in TDKR, one of the craziest takes of the character to be that influential, has him possessed by the demon of Batman not simply because of his parents, but because of the general injustices he sees in the world. And TAS version certainly didn't have an entirely happy ending, but Dini and Timm are still widely regarded as presenting a Batman who does have a soul and is concerned with much more than making himself feel better. There may not be a "The Batman", but the Batman of Adam West to Denny O'Neil to Paul Dini to Bruce Timm to Alan Grant to Michael Uslan to Chuck Dixon to Grant Morrison to Neil Gaiman to Scott Snyder to The Brave and the Bold to the Christopher Nolan movies to, yes, even Frank Miller? All those Batmen are a balance of pathology and heroism/altruism. I'm not saying Batman is devoid of flaws or doesn't have issues, I'm saying the interpretations in which that's all he is, a crazy guy in a batsuit, are not the primary representation of the character. While there are a great many different takes, there is also a foundation that most people have come to accept and that foundation includes a strong drive to protect the innocent and make sure no one else experiences what young Bruce Wayne did.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:15
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I think the Nolan movies, especially the 2nd and 3rd ones did their very best to portray Bruce Wayne as a crazy guy in a bat suit. It actually estranges him from his closest friend.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:23
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BiggerBoat posted:The countering is this game is fine. Well, maybe it's just different. Maybe they altered it from AA/AC to reflect younger Batman's inexperience. But remember in games like Alpha Protocol when a lesser gun skill meant that the bullets didn't necessarily hit the target even though the crosshair was on the target when the player pulled the trigger? No one likes that poo poo.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:26
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It's an obsession with righting wrongs in his particular way that causes friction, though. It's not just "he's crazy, because he dresses up in a suit with ears, so he's really ruining his relationships". The batsuit itself is pretty secondary in motivation, which is another thing I think people dwell on far too much, especially because dressing up in a crazy costume is incredibly common in the world Batman typically inhabits.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:28
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Countering does feel a bit off in Origins compared to the other games.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:48
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The whole point of Batman and his villains is that they're all crazy, Batman just happens to fall on the right side of the line. A whole lot of storylines involve Batman's villains highlighting this similarity, and Batman's saving grace is that he realizes that he's dysfunctional and chooses to use his dysfunction to achieve good. Him being insane doesn't preclude the possibility of him being heroic, but when you get right down to it, the writers who really seem to understand Batman seem to understand that he's got a pathological need to control the world around him, to the point that it drives the people he cares about away from him. I think that "defending the innocent and punishing injustice" aren't as much Batman's goals so much as they're his symptoms.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:59
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doctor 7 posted:Countering does feel a bit off in Origins compared to the other games.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:06
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