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Phylodox posted:The whole point of Batman and his villains is that they're all crazy, Batman just happens to fall on the right side of the line. A whole lot of storylines involve Batman's villains highlighting this similarity, and Batman's saving grace is that he realizes that he's dysfunctional and chooses to use his dysfunction to achieve good. Him being insane doesn't preclude the possibility of him being heroic, but when you get right down to it, the writers who really seem to understand Batman seem to understand that he's got a pathological need to control the world around him, to the point that it drives the people he cares about away from him. I think that "defending the innocent and punishing injustice" aren't as much Batman's goals so much as they're his symptoms. See, I don't really understand why you made the point that there is no one "The Batman" and then go on to say "ultimate control freak" is, no bones about it, his number one motivation. Most of the instances I can think of in which Batman drove the people around him away, it was because he focused too much on going out there and protecting Gotham at the expense of not having time to be a family man or a boyfriend or what have you. He's definitely a workaholic, but if he needs to control the world around him he's slacking, considerably. We've seen other people in his universe, like Lex Luthor, who have a much better chance at using their wealth to control the world. Bruce, if anything, sacrifices his ability to sit around in his ivory tower and control everything around him constantly, by spending millions on civic projects and on new ways to stop criminals from victimizing the innocent. There may be an element of control freak to Batman, but I disagree with your assertion that it's the alpha and omega of his motivations. That being said, there's no real point in going back and forth like this since, as we've discussed, different people have different interpretations. The primary reason I interjected in the first place was simply to make the point that "foaming at the mouth and thinking single-mindedly about his parents being killed" is not the only, or even the normal, portrayal of Batman.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:11
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Phylodox posted:The whole point of Batman and his villains is that they're all crazy, Batman just happens to fall on the right side of the line. A whole lot of storylines involve Batman's villains highlighting this similarity, and Batman's saving grace is that he realizes that he's dysfunctional and chooses to use his dysfunction to achieve good. Him being insane doesn't preclude the possibility of him being heroic, but when you get right down to it, the writers who really seem to understand Batman seem to understand that he's got a pathological need to control the world around him, to the point that it drives the people he cares about away from him. I think that "defending the innocent and punishing injustice" aren't as much Batman's goals so much as they're his symptoms. You saying that reminded me of the profile Dr. Young made on Batman. 
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Dec 10, 2013 23:19
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But control is Batman's obsession. Why do you think the Joker is his most enduring villain? They're almost mirror images. Batman seized on a need to exert control and order to deal with his trauma, Joker embraced the chaos and insanity of his (variable) traumatic origin. EDIT: Bringing it back to Origins, that's what I loved about the portrayal of the Joker in this game. While the Joker is and always will be an affront to everything Batman stands for, from the Joker's perspective their first meeting is shown as almost a love story. That moment when you finally meet someone who utterly completes you, who balances the scales of your existence, that's what Joker's character arc is in the game and it's brilliant. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 23:26
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Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just saying that the ideas you posited were similar to Dr. Young's notes. Edit: My mistake. Didn't see that Beeez had responded to you before me. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 23:28
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Phylodox posted:But control is Batman's obsession. Why do you think the Joker is his most enduring villain? They're almost mirror images. Batman seized on a need to exert control and order to deal with his trauma, Joker embraced the chaos and insanity of his (variable) traumatic origin. This again goes back to the interpretation thing I guess, because I've always seen it more as Batman being able to find meaning vs Joker deciding there is no meaning to anything. But Joker himself doesn't even really believe life is meaningless, he just thinks every life but Batman's and, by extension as his perfect foe, his own are meaningless.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:29
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The whole control obsession was a major plot point to The Dark Knight Rises where Batman refused to allow the police to use any of his arsenal and they end up falling into the wrong hands. To bring it to the game, there is a conversation with Alfred where Batman is pretty pissed that Gordon didn't listen to him on the bridge despite everything working out in the end
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Dec 10, 2013 23:32
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Yeah, that's one of the major themes of Origins, Batman having to relinquish an iota of control and let people help him. That's pretty much his whole character arc, admitting that he can't handle everything single-handed, and it's a really painful thing for him, definitely more painful than any of the physical beatings he takes.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:35
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blackguy32 posted:The whole control obsession was a major plot point to The Dark Knight Rises where Batman refused to allow the police to use any of his arsenal and they end up falling into the wrong hands. Control isn't the aim in either of those instances, though, it's the instrument. In both cases it was a disagreement on what the best option was(and in fact in the game Gordon was stubbornly against accepting help from a vigilante as much as Bruce was against having someone fight alongside him) rather than control for the sake of control. In fact, in TDKR I don't remember them ever making any kind of fuss over the fact that the police don't use military weapons from Wayne Tech. Bruce wasn't even the one keeping those machines there, that was Lucius' decision.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:36
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, that's one of the major themes of Origins, Batman having to relinquish an iota of control and let people help him. That's pretty much his whole character arc, admitting that he can't handle everything single-handed, and it's a really painful thing for him, definitely more painful than any of the physical beatings he takes. But he doesn't want help because he doesn't want anyone in danger and because, in the case of the GCPD, there are very few cops who wouldn't make things worse with their involvement. Pretty much every time control freak Batman comes up that I'm aware of, he has reasons for acting that way that extend beyond simply wanting to control everything.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:38
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I think it depends on the age. Batman fresh off his parents murder/training is a massive control freak, has an obsession problem, and is just as dysfunctional as the criminals he fights. Hell, Origins is a perfect example of this. However the further you get into the Batman comics, the lower priority that stuff gets. Eventually he picks up Robin, and those aspects of his character drop entirely in favor of being a father figure for Robin/protecting the city because he has something to fight for again besides anger. And then you have the marriage to Selena thing, the birth of Huntress/Damian, the formation of the Batfamily, the removal of corruption in the GCPD, etc. By the time of JLA, Batman is part of two large families that have become surrogate families to him, and functions much more as a fatherly/guidance figure for other Heroes struggling with the issues he had to deal with early on. The vast majority of Batman comics are set in the second time period, rather then the first. It's just we've had a string of movies/games recently set preRobin and the focus before him was always Batman's severe personal issues. Of course, even the later comics poke fun at his controlling tendencies, but it's usually good natured. Batman having multiple plans on how to kill Superman just in case being the best known one.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:38
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Sober posted:It's mostly because possibly the window is tighter, or the frames where you can cancel out of a move into a counter are much smaller. That plus (at least in free roam) enemies that will fly a few meters and connect a hit if you aren't careful. Also just way too many fights in tight spaces loving up the camera. The challenge mode system seems completely different, you can still do the split second counters that you could in the other games.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:53
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Phylodox posted:Once again, the animated series did it better. Batman isn't really Bruce's way of dealing with his parents' deaths, it's pretty much his way of shutting out all of the pain and disappointment in the world. He only actually decides to become Batman after being brutally jilted by the woman he was going to propose to. He surrounds himself with children and teenagers who idolize him and, when they grow up enough to question him, he drives them away. By the time we get to Batman Beyond he's a broken, bitter, crippled old man living alone with his dog, a creepy old recluse who still calls himself Batman in his head. His only path to redemption is to eventually pass on the mantle of Batman to someone who is almost literally himself. No happy ending, no running off to Italy with Selina, nothing. I mean, Jesus, even Frank Miller didn't go that dark.  )Seventh Arrow posted:That show was awesome and I love how reading the episode descriptions makes the show sound completely insane:
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Dec 11, 2013 00:02
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Goddamn how do I get back into the SWAT rooms and the sewers underneath GCPD again?
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Dec 11, 2013 00:33
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FAT WORM OF ERROR posted:Goddamn how do I get back into the SWAT rooms and the sewers underneath GCPD again? SWAT rooms are accessible through a vent you get to off of the elevator shaft outside the bullpen. Sewers are accessible through the parking garage across from the GCPD.
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Dec 11, 2013 00:44
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All I meant to say is that I have no problems whatsoever countering moves in this game and haven't since I started playing it. From what I've read in this thread, this issue seems specific to people playing on PC so maybe there's something some wonky poo poo going on there. I counter motherfuckers all over the place on the 360 and never look back so I don't even know.
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Dec 11, 2013 00:54
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I'm on PC and I never had problems with countering that probably aren't anything more than them changing it a bit to not be like AC levels. If I miss a counter 99.999% of the time I didn't see it or failed to do anything versus "I HIT THE loving BUTTON BUT NOTHING"
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Dec 11, 2013 00:58
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Phylodox posted:The whole point of Batman and his villains is that they're all crazy, Batman just happens to fall on the right side of the line. A whole lot of storylines involve Batman's villains highlighting this similarity, and Batman's saving grace is that he realizes that he's dysfunctional and chooses to use his dysfunction to achieve good. Him being insane doesn't preclude the possibility of him being heroic, but when you get right down to it, the writers who really seem to understand Batman seem to understand that he's got a pathological need to control the world around him, to the point that it drives the people he cares about away from him. I think that "defending the innocent and punishing injustice" aren't as much Batman's goals so much as they're his symptoms. This is why the next Arkham game needs top have Prometheus in it. Not as a main villain, but he'd make a good side plot as a dark side Bruce Wayne.
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Dec 11, 2013 01:16
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Sober posted:I'm on PC and I never had problems with countering that probably aren't anything more than them changing it a bit to not be like AC levels. If I miss a counter 99.999% of the time I didn't see it or failed to do anything versus "I HIT THE loving BUTTON BUT NOTHING" Possibly along similar lines, I saw this on the Steam Forums about a KB/M Critical Strike bug being addressed (last page of that thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rJdJ6lBSiQ
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Dec 11, 2013 04:25
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I'm sure others have griped about it as well, but Batman being stopped by locked wooden doors in Origins is really, really dumb. EDIT: Especially one that is 3/4 window: 
Orgophlax fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 04:40
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Well, he's a vigilante, but that's no excuse to be rude.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:55
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Fuzz posted:This is why the next Arkham game needs top have Prometheus in it. Not as a main villain, but he'd make a good side plot as a dark side Bruce Wayne. Next Arkham game is gonna be pretty hard-up for fresh villains.
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Dec 11, 2013 05:59
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They can just draw from low-tier... I mean, the loving Electrocutioner was in Origins. They can slap in people like Crime Doctor, The Mortician, Phantasm,etc for the next game.
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Dec 11, 2013 06:13
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I remember a few months before they formally announced Origins, they hinted that it'd take place in a Silver Age setting. They technically did do that in terms of where it takes place chronologically, but I was really hoping they would actually make it Silver Age as hell, with a bunch of really bizarre villains and Batman using all this weird pseudo-futuristic technology.
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Dec 11, 2013 06:17
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HenessyHero posted:Next Arkham game is gonna be pretty hard-up for fresh villains.
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Dec 11, 2013 07:21
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Sober posted:Pretty sure all those slightly interesting side plot threads in City - Hush, Azrael - are gonna get dropped because MORE JOKER HERE Unless they do the unthinkable and he actually STAYS dead in this continuity.
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Dec 11, 2013 07:29
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miscellaneous14 posted:I remember a few months before they formally announced Origins, they hinted that it'd take place in a Silver Age setting. They technically did do that in terms of where it takes place chronologically, but I was really hoping they would actually make it Silver Age as hell, with a bunch of really bizarre villains and Batman using all this weird pseudo-futuristic technology. I'm pretty sure the Silver Age thing was about Rocksteady's next game, not Origins. EDIT: So it might not be a part of the Arkham timeline at all.
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Dec 11, 2013 13:04
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miscellaneous14 posted:I remember a few months before they formally announced Origins, they hinted that it'd take place in a Silver Age setting. They technically did do that in terms of where it takes place chronologically, but I was really hoping they would actually make it Silver Age as hell, with a bunch of really bizarre villains and Batman using all this weird pseudo-futuristic technology. So basically a mission in a game like that would be "Crime in Progress: Crazy Quilt obtained magical powers and is robbing the Gotham National Bank on a flying carpet. Use the Bat-Fabric Destroyer to do the cad in."
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Dec 11, 2013 15:25
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Finally got around to buying this on the Xbox thanks to some discount vouchers. Did the various bugs get patched in the end? I was following the thread upto the launch date and there seemed to be a few appearing - trying to avoid looking back in the thread to try and avoid spoilers... (Thanks for any help!)
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Dec 11, 2013 17:34
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Jayou posted:Finally got around to buying this on the Xbox thanks to some discount vouchers. Did the various bugs get patched in the end? I was following the thread upto the launch date and there seemed to be a few appearing - trying to avoid looking back in the thread to try and avoid spoilers... (Thanks for any help!) It has been patched the poo poo out of since release and a lot of the complaint discussions seem to be "ugh this is broken or feels weird" "works fine for me on Xbox" "I'm on PC" so yes, I'd say the console version is probably the most stable.
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Dec 11, 2013 17:47
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doctor 7 posted:It has been patched the poo poo out of since release and a lot of the complaint discussions seem to be "ugh this is broken or feels weird" "works fine for me on Xbox" "I'm on PC" so yes, I'd say the console version is probably the most stable.
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Dec 11, 2013 18:05
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If the next game does not require the use of bat shark repellant, then I don't want to play it.
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Dec 11, 2013 18:27
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miscellaneous14 posted:I remember a few months before they formally announced Origins, they hinted that it'd take place in a Silver Age setting. They technically did do that in terms of where it takes place chronologically, but I was really hoping they would actually make it Silver Age as hell, with a bunch of really bizarre villains and Batman using all this weird pseudo-futuristic technology. I still think this is the freshest direction for Rocksteady to take. You'd have entirely new opportunities for crazy villains, gadgets, and locales. If their next game is in the same Arkhamverse as the previous three, they'll really be hard up to surprise us, I think. In related news, DC is putting out an animated feature sometime next year set in the Arkhamverse called Batman: Assault on Arkham.
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Dec 11, 2013 18:45
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MeatwadIsGod posted:In related news, DC is putting out an animated feature sometime next year set in the Arkhamverse called Batman: Assault on Arkham. Oh great, more video game anime tie-ins.
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Dec 11, 2013 19:07
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Comic and animated movie tie-ins have existed for video games forever, but I still can't believe they continue to be made in a post SiN: The Movie world.Hobgoblin2099 posted:So basically a mission in a game like that would be This would be the ideal structure for missions in a procedurally generated Arkham game. Even the costumes and abilities Batman uses can be randomized. ZEBRA Batman! TEN-EYED MAN has kidnapped BARBARA Gordon with the YELLOW Lantern Ring, but it's just a CUNNING RUSE organized by the real mastermind, THE THUMPER! Are you a bad enough dude to stop them? Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 19:12
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I would love Rocksteady to drop the Arkham continuity for a second and put out a Batman: The Brave and the Bold game in the same engine or whatever. They could easily make it look completely different with bold, bright colours and cel-shading (is that what the kids still use these days) or whatever.
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Dec 11, 2013 19:45
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bonds0097 posted:If the next game does not require the use of bat shark repellant, then I don't want to play it. This one did, it's called the beatdown move.
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Dec 11, 2013 20:22
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doctor 7 posted:Oh great, more video game anime tie-ins. DC Animated Films have a tendency to be pretty good, so I'm excited, actually. Just as long as it doesn't involve the Joker.  Off topic, I kind of want Anarky to come back in the next Arkham title. At the same time, Gotham's not as corrupt politically in present time as it was in Arkham Origins, so perhaps he wouldn't be as effective a character in Arkham 4.
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Dec 11, 2013 21:24
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Oh, thank the little baby Jesus, my Worst Nightmare progress carried over into my New Game+. I was dreading the possibility of having to do all that bullshit again. Also, I think this game is even better the second time. Now that I'm not getting used to the controls or the layout of the city the gameplay and story really come through much better. Although gently caress the snipers in the Diamond District. gently caress them so much.
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Dec 11, 2013 21:27
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:DC Animated Films have a tendency to be pretty good, so I'm excited, actually. Just as long as it doesn't involve the Joker. Gotham City successfully turned a neighborhood into a massive prison camp filled with the city's most dangerous criminals and had a military force providing the security and you think Anarky wouldn't have a thing to say about it?
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Dec 11, 2013 21:32
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I really think for the next installment they should (and I hate how this sounds) make it a tad bit more like the GTA series. What I mean is let you patrol the city and tackle crime and plot hooks as you see fit, investigate crime scenes, beat the poo poo out of thugs and all that (sort of like they've done in the last two games), but also give you access to the Batmobile, the copter, the motorcycle, the boat and all that poo poo too. You could still keep the gameplay and the combat as tight as they've always been but maybe add a touch of mobility and a sense of really monitoring and controlling Gotham that, to this point, has been largely scripted and dealt with through cut scenes. Origins touches on it some by letting you visit the Batcave and quick travel, for instance, but I think it'd be pretty fun to drive the tumbler through the waterfall out of the Batcave, wreck it somewhere, and then pull the motorcycle out of it, so long it's done done properly and didn't feel gimmicky or tacked on. Up until now, all of the vehicles are done via cut scenes and every time one happens, I find myself wanting to drive/fly whatever it is Batman is doing.
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Dec 11, 2013 21:47
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