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Yeah, I'd call victorinox a good baseline/entry level brand of knife to get a basic skill level at cutting and learning how to sharpen before moving on to a more serious knife, if that makes sense. They're miles above cheap, lovely, mall knives for a decent price. Though if they are only 30 US dollars I am jealous. They're usually 60 at starting price here in Australia. But then higher end knives can be a few hundred.
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Dec 4, 2013 14:22
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Anyone have thoughts on the various Ikea chefs knives they'd care to share? Rubbish to avoid, or a rung below Victorinox, or is there a diamond amongst the poo poo that someone new to decent knives could start with?
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Dec 4, 2013 19:03
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d3rt posted:Anyone have thoughts on the various Ikea chefs knives they'd care to share? Rubbish to avoid, or a rung below Victorinox, or is there a diamond amongst the poo poo that someone new to decent knives could start with? Every cooking related implement I have bought from Ikea has been the worst thing imaginable and failed within a few uses. I have no experience with their knives but I would not expect them to be any better. For the record, I own a ton of other Ikea things that have been excellent, the kitchen stuff is just horrible.
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Dec 4, 2013 19:18
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rockcity posted:Every cooking related implement I have bought from Ikea has been the worst thing imaginable and failed within a few uses. I have no experience with their knives but I would not expect them to be any better. For the record, I own a ton of other Ikea things that have been excellent, the kitchen stuff is just horrible. I have a pair of their tongs that are a few years old and still going strong, but that's about it unless we're counting chopping boards, stock pots and colanders which are pretty hard to gently caress up.
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Dec 4, 2013 20:59
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No Wave posted:My understanding is that they're the best knife at the price point. And significantly better than 98% of the knives that people in America use. Isn't it likely that it would constitute a huge step up for almost anyone who buys them? yeah, fair enough. I just mean lovely like, you can tell they aren't a quality product. the balance is really weird, the blade is flimsy, the handle is some cheap plastic, etc. the knife itself is quite sharp, and holds an edge on par with the next tier up - which is why I recommend the knives without reservation (especially to the 98% you're referencing) - but I just think there's not a ton of attention to detail or care there. since our shoe flameouts I just want to compare everything to shoes : victorinox are like dockers to me. they're fine, look ok, get the job done - but they're a lovely shoe. to 98% of people dockers probably make for perfectly nice dress shoes, but if you care at all about dress shoes and wear them on a daily basis, you'll quickly appreciate something next tier up like johnston and murphy or allen edmonds or whatever. even the price points on this comparison are similar, so I think it's a pretty good one. rockcity posted:Every cooking related implement I have bought from Ikea has been the worst thing imaginable and failed within a few uses. I have no experience with their knives but I would not expect them to be any better. For the record, I own a ton of other Ikea things that have been excellent, the kitchen stuff is just horrible. I've had a few ikea 365 pans in my life which were completely awesome, and I love their cutting boards, 365 plates, and wineglasses. I haven't ever used their knives, so I can't speak to them, but I wouldn't discount ikea cooking products at all. edit : I just realized my salad spinner came from them, cost like $7, and still going strong after 4 years. mindphlux fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 04:25
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The Midniter posted:I actually won a Korin gyuto from Serious Eats in a giveaway and it's too light for my tastes, so I switched back to the Fibrox. All I'm hearing is that you've got a knife for sale.
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Dec 5, 2013 05:51
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The Midniter posted:I actually won a Korin gyuto from Serious Eats in a giveaway and it's too light for my tastes, so I switched back to the Fibrox. I was the only person who knew what the piece of meat on the outside of a ribeye is called and I won a big rear end steak that he mailed to my house in dry ice. It was pretty good.
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Dec 5, 2013 06:22
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All you guys talkin' poo poo about Victorinox need to learn about this little fella (5.0831): It looks like a chinese knock-off and it costs about five bucks, so why am I even posting about it in the knife porn thread? Because it's the best five bucks one can spend (though you probably want to buy a box of them and gift to everyone). Despite looking awkward, with teeth and all, it turns out to be extremely handy at cutting literally everything you don't feel like bothering with a chef's knife. It also doubles nicely as a table-knife. And you can abuse it to no end, since it costs only five bucks. It's especially cool as a cheap little gift to force on family and gbsfoods-style friends. At first they look at you funny because why should they care about a knife, especially such a little piece of poo poo? Then they spend the next month cutting their fingernails off and come to respect the little fucker and love it. Some gbsfoods kitchens I gifted this to ceased using other knives at all. It might not be on par with fancy japanese knives, but it's just so. incredibly. loving. handy and cheap. It should become the Kalashnikov of the world of knives.
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Dec 5, 2013 10:42
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mindphlux posted:I've had a few ikea 365 pans in my life which were completely awesome, and I love their cutting boards, 365 plates, and wineglasses. I haven't ever used their knives, so I can't speak to them, but I wouldn't discount ikea cooking products at all. Maybe they've gotten better recently then. This was about 4 years ago when I bought them. It was a spatula, a turner and a serving spoon. Both the spatula and the turner melted on probably the second use and the handle on the spoon broke after about a month. I swore off buying their kitchen gear after that.
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Dec 5, 2013 11:16
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rockcity posted:Maybe they've gotten better recently then. This was about 4 years ago when I bought them. It was a spatula, a turner and a serving spoon. Both the spatula and the turner melted on probably the second use and the handle on the spoon broke after about a month. I swore off buying their kitchen gear after that. Sorry for the derail, but I've at least gotten excellent use out of their salad bowls, dishes and glasses for years now, especially for the price they can't be beat. 16pc dinnerware set for maybe $20 bucks, solid white and haven't had one chip or break in well over 2 years now using them daily.
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Dec 5, 2013 17:26
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For the victorinox knives, I think it's more of a reflection on how many overpriced lovely knives there are out there rather than how good the knives are. Victorinox sets a base standard: this is how good a knife at a -$40 price point should be. Not those lovely henckels you can get at target. That being said, it absolutely gets circle-jerked all the time. Sometimes it gets to the point where people will say something like "buying a more expensive knife is a waste of money", "this beats most >$100 knives out there". That's just not true. Additionally, my relatively new victorinox 10-inch slips off a tomato every time. hoshkwon fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 17:39
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hoshkwon posted:For the victorinox knives, I think it's more of a reflection on how many overpriced lovely knives there are out there rather than how good the knives are. Victorinox sets a base standard: this is how good a knife at a -$40 price point should be. Not those lovely henckels you can get at target. It is remarkable how much better it is than similarly priced options I've dealt with. Of course it should inspire excitement! It is something to be happy over! No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 19:26
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hoshkwon posted:Sometimes it gets to the point where people will say something like "buying a more expensive knife is a waste of money", "this beats most >$100 knives out there". And anyway everybody knows the US$30 kitchen cutlery that's better than most chef's knives in the US$100 range is the CCK #1 small slicer.  Lichtenstein posted:All you guys talkin' poo poo about Victorinox need to learn about this little fella (5.0831): Lemme put it this way: I've had a couple of those Victorinox paring knives since the '80s, and a couple years ago when I picked up a Dojo paring knife I suddenly realised I'd hated every other paring knife I'd ever used and hadn't known it. By comparison I'd actually prefer to use a 8" Victorinox chef's knife over a Henckels Five Star, say.
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Dec 6, 2013 02:27
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What length of chef's knife should I get if I'm buying my first Tojiro DP? Is it just a matter of preference?
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Dec 6, 2013 02:59
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Rurutia posted:What length of chef's knife should I get if I'm buying my first Tojiro DP? Is it just a matter of preference?
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Dec 6, 2013 03:11
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Rurutia posted:What length of chef's knife should I get if I'm buying my first Tojiro DP? Is it just a matter of preference? I like 240mm
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Dec 6, 2013 03:37
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Yeah, I have a hammered vg10 gyuto thing that's 240mm and it's perfect. I also have a 270mm tojiro dp gyuto and it's a bit large for me to comfortably use in some situations.
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Dec 6, 2013 05:17
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SubG posted:By comparison I'd actually prefer to use a 8" Victorinox chef's knife over a Henckels Five Star, say. Is that personal preference or something specific about the knives? Are you talking about the $160 "Forged" knife or the $30 fibrox things?
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Dec 6, 2013 23:10
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SopWATh posted:Is that personal preference or something specific about the knives? Are you talking about the $160 "Forged" knife or the $30 fibrox things?
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Dec 7, 2013 01:33
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SopWATh posted:Is that personal preference or something specific about the knives? Are you talking about the $160 "Forged" knife or the $30 fibrox things? In terms of edge retention and other basic performance standards I don't see any appreciable difference between the two---they're both middle-of-the road steels suitable for general beater knife work, but aren't hard enough to tolerate extremely acute grinds. I don't think I `get' the blade profile of most of the Henckels chef's knives either---they've got less belly than most Western-patterned knives (like the Victorinox), but more than the typical gyuto or Chinese cleaver. More belly makes for better rock cutting and less makes for better push cutting, but in the middle? I don't get it.
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Dec 7, 2013 02:16
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Thanks for the info, I do appreciate the objective observations. I've noticed the sharp edge on the spine, the knife sharpening links in the OP has a short video where he just takes a bit of sandpaper to the spine to round it over. That made a huge difference for using the cheap henkels chef knife I've got. (it came in the 3-pack thing at Target and has been much better than the total poo poo knives my wife likes) I've also noticed the lack of belly to the knife, it makes rocking awkward and I don't like trying to push through everything. Maybe I'll drop $30 on the fibrox knife and see how that works. EDIT: Although the shape of the fibrox blade looks like it flattens out quite a bit as well... SopWATh fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 21:40
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But push cutting is best cutting
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Dec 8, 2013 03:13
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I've had to round the spine on all of the knives I use regularly, including the CCK and the Tojiro DP. The Tojiro was particularly sharp-cornered. I use a low-grit stone, then sandpaper. Seems to go quicker.
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Dec 8, 2013 04:52
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So I want a good, stainless, Japanese chef knife. I know the Tojiro DP is GWS's perennial favorite, but Im afraid it's too flat. Are there any similar options in the same price range that have a rounder belly?
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Dec 8, 2013 05:18
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I can't really think of any Japanese knives that have round bellies. I even think the Tojiro DP is actually too round, because I like to do a lot of push cutting with the tip. If only Tojiro would make a kiritsuke in the DP line.
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Dec 8, 2013 16:38
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martinlutherbling posted:So I want a good, stainless, Japanese chef knife. I know the Tojiro DP is GWS's perennial favorite, but Im afraid it's too flat. Are there any similar options in the same price range that have a rounder belly? get one of these http://www.macknife.com/kitchen/products-by-series/professional-series.html I use a santoku but if you insist on a chef's knife, the 8in with dimples looks pretty rad. or you could just get a giant boring western style one for hacking through bones etc.
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Dec 8, 2013 22:05
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That looks pretty drat sweet except its more than twice the cost of a DP.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:16
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This thread has been a great resource indeed - while I did not buy a shiny Japanese knife (no bucks for that and I feel that level of performance is a tad out of my skill yet haha), I got a decent stainless steel forged knife that with some caretaking has been much better than everything I had before. That said, I got pretty interested in sharpening. For someone who is completely new to it and doesn't have very sophisticated blades to work with, what kind of whetstone I should look at? I have seen a Suehiro #300 stone for cheap; should I get a high grit as well (perhaps a double-face) or that would be overkill to learn the basics? (I read the guide in first page, but leaves a lot open and I would like a bit more detailed input) Thanks!
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Dec 10, 2013 01:28
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martinlutherbling posted:That looks pretty drat sweet except its more than twice the cost of a DP. well, their superior series is good too if you can't spend $180 on a knife. I have both a superior and a professional santoku, and the pro is pretty awesome, but the superior is great too. http://www.macknife.com/kitchen/products-by-series/superior-series.html it looks like their chefs knives have some dumb rounded tip thing which makes no loving sense to me, but maybe you'd like it. really though, I have a bunch of expensive japanese and german knives, and my mac superior santoku was my daily beater for over 12 years (till I was gifted the professional model a couple months ago). I bought other knives and still would just end up going back to it, for edge retention, overall utility, balance, etc. just my two cents/vouching for a brand. I don't own a Tojiro though, but they look like perfectly nice knives...
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Dec 10, 2013 06:05
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Tojiros are comparable to Macs, and are slightly harder. Mac uses an alloy similar to Global's Cromova, which is right around 58-59 rockwell, where Tojiros are 60-61. You could always get something out of the Tojiro ITK series, but they're high carbon, and will rust if you don't keep them dry.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:12
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Any opinions of Sugimoto knives? I had a friend pick me up this guy: http://www.sugimoto-hamono.com/e/sfrench/i02_gyu.html when they were visiting Japan and I'm wondering what people think of them. I love using it for everything but bone-in meats, it has held an edge well but the blade is very thin so I don't even dream of cutting anything that might have a hard bone in it for fear of dinging it up. Anyway, it's been nice for me but feels like if I looked at it wrong I would break it. The blade does knick up pretty easy due to its thinness but I was able to get them out easily with a pair of stones also. I had kept the knife in a box and told the roommates not to use it then came home one day after a party and found that they had used the knife to cut up stuff in/through/on tinfoil??? and I could see nicks all over the edge. We do not live together anymore.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:30
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I think a lot of the German vs Japanese kitchen knives is becoming subject to internet hyperbole. I'm fine with people preferring one to the other, but it seems it seems that hivemind thinking is going towards "Japanese or bust" and not really sticking to the facts while getting there. One thing that gets overblown is knife hardness. Yes, german knives are softer (usually Rc 57-58 or thereabouts). No, that's not exactly a buttery consistency. It's within the normal range you'd find in high-end pocketknives for instance. Contrast to Japanese knives, where Rc 60-62 is more common. Yes, that's harder. But it's not exactly a difference of night and day either. Sharpening angle is another difference. German knives have more obtuse angles (typically 20 degrees exclusive, though some newer lines go as low as 16 per side). Japanese double bevels are normally at 15 degrees, sometimes even lower. That's a sharper knife. But a well-sharpened and refined 20 degree edge is enough to shave with, drop and halve tomatoes on, etc, etc. There are a few pertinent criticisms of Ze Germans: they're somewhat overpriced, their spines should be rounded, and the bolsters will cause you eventual problems with sharpening. The first can be circumvented by looking for deals, the second by 5 minutes and some sandpaper, and the third is not exactly a problem a normal user needs to worry about for years to come. I'm not saying Wusthofs and Zwillings and such are better than Tojiros and Shuns - but I don't think they're necessarily worse either. I have Wusthofs and Tojiros, and I end up using my wusthofs more because I like the heft, and being able to bang them around in the knowledge I can get a screaming edge back on them in 5 minutes. Others may like a lighter knife that's a little harder to sharpen. But ultimately, being able to sharpen your knives well may be more important than what knife you're starting with.
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Dec 11, 2013 00:15
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German knives are typically closer to 50-54 HRC. That is considerably softer and accounts for the difference in edge steepness. They just can't hold a usable aggressive edge. Because of the softness, they also cannot be thinned as aggressively. Sure they're sharp enough to do a hanging hair test, but the japanese knife is hard enough to hold a significantly sharper edge for significantly longer all with a thinner, and lighter blade. Some people, myself included, don't like the useless weight of a German knife. If I need the heft, I'll grab a cleaver, it's a better tool for the job anyway. GrAviTy84 fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 00:19
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The bolster alone makes the Henckels/Wusthofs knives (that have those bolsters) a bad buy in my book. I simply cannot recommend a knife with such a bizarre oversight like that. If someone prefers Henckels/Wusthof who am I to say otherwise? But given that most people probably want lighter, sharper, cheaper knives without the weird design flaw I don't really see why I'd recommend them to someone who hasn't used them before. No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 01:57
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What's wrong with the bolsters? I have a Henckels chef knife and over my time learning to cook I've come to the realization that yeah, it's too thick, but I love the bolster.
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Dec 11, 2013 02:35
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Steve Yun posted:What's wrong with the bolsters? I have a Henckels chef knife and over my time learning to cook I've come to the realization that yeah, it's too thick, but I love the bolster. Though I'm especially biased because I had a chef's choice sharpening system and this was an even more annoying problem. No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 02:48
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Over time, as you sharpen the knife the bolster will start to bulge out compared to the rest of the edge because it's not getting ground down like the rest of it (assuming you aren't in fact grinding down the bolster as well which would be kind of a pain in the rear end). The extra height there will make it so there's a gap between the rest of the edge and the surface you're cutting on, so your knife won't cut all the way through what you're cutting.
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Dec 11, 2013 02:53
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I think it's called the heel, but I see what you mean
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Dec 11, 2013 02:53
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The internet tells me it's bolster.
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Dec 11, 2013 02:55
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GrAviTy84 posted:German knives are typically closer to 50-54 HRC. Any source for this? I haven't found anything that reports anything for the major German brands under 56. Frustratingly, I've not found any great source that compares common chef's knives systematically, but this link at least offers some overview: http://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=1768.0 In any case, the idea that "they can't hold a usable edge" is flat out not true. I do still agree with the Tojiro as a default recommendation for someone looking to buy a good, well-priced first kitchen knife; I just don't think it's a real upgrade if you have a decent German already. Thoht posted:Over time, as you sharpen the knife the bolster will start to bulge out compared to the rest of the edge because it's not getting ground down like the rest of it (assuming you aren't in fact grinding down the bolster as well which would be kind of a pain in the rear end). The extra height there will make it so there's a gap between the rest of the edge and the surface you're cutting on, so your knife won't cut all the way through what you're cutting. Not using a pull-through, electric, or similarly super-aggressive sharpener will really alleviate that problem though. It's a problem I learned about on the internet, while I've been using and sharpening my bolstered knife regularly for over a decade without encountering the issue. ma i married a tuna fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 02:59
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