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Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang
Amazing new OP. Amazing interviews and trailer. This is a good day, and this Big Update is everything I hoped it would be. Including issues to process my pledge order, but that will be fixed soon I'm sure.

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Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011

I can tell the level designer has a fancy for the circular stone tile pattern in the editor.

Fucker
Jan 4, 2013

Gaspy Conana posted:

I get that some of the animation work comes off as a bit janky, but the art is beautiful! What exactly do you find repulsive?!

I didnt say it looked repulsive. I said it looked subpar. It looks serviceable but in the age of DOTA, Diablo 3 and even the generic Diablo clone, its not up to standard. Might just be a case of having to be careful with the kickstart funding. Or maybe its just a question of fidelity over the good old games.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Fucker posted:

I didnt say it looked repulsive. I said it looked subpar. It looks serviceable but in the age of DOTA, Diablo 3 and even the generic Diablo clone, its not up to standard. Might just be a case of having to be careful with the kickstart funding. Or maybe its just a question of fidelity over the good old games.

To put this as nicely as possible, I'm not sure you were going into this with expectations in touch with reality. This game has a shoe string budget compared to the games you listed. While the animations need work, the idea was always to evoke the beautiful backgrounds of Infinity Engine games (because it is both good looking and plausible for the budget we're looking at) and not so much AAA spell effects and characters.

It was always going to resemble an Infinity Engine game, except a bit prettier, that is what we were promised.

Fucker
Jan 4, 2013

Captain Oblivious posted:

To put this as nicely as possible, I'm not sure you were going into this with expectations in touch with reality. This game has a shoe string budget compared to the games you listed. While the animations need work, the idea was always to evoke the beautiful backgrounds of Infinity Engine games (because it is both good looking and plausible for the budget we're looking at) and not so much AAA spell effects and characters.

It was always going to resemble an Infinity Engine game, except a bit prettier, that is what we were promised.

I had no expectations, did not even pitch in on the Kickstarter. Just making an observation as someone that could buy the game when it comes out.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

rope kid posted:

Fighters can knock dudes on their asses, both individually and, at higher levels, in groups. Also they can act like big sheets of burly flypaper and catch scrubs who try to rush by them. Their disengagement attacks are gnarly, they constantly regenerate Stamina, they convert a percentage of Grazes to Hits (this was modified from their earlier Confident Aim ability), they can shield nearby allies, and they get weapon specialization. The specialization damage bonus isn't as flashy as using a paladin's Flames of Devotion, but they gain the damage benefit with every hit forever. They're designed to be reliable, efficient, and nigh-indestructible. They're not the guys you pick to have a single shining moment in the sun before they explode and collapse, but I think they are great characters. Then again, I loved playing a warden in 4E, so I'm biased toward "slow burn" defender types.

Everyone who played 4e loved Wardens. Ok we are cool now.

*sheathes his hanzo steel*

edit- I think the important thing is having some ability to manage groups of enemies, since in my experience with ISO RPGs the fighter's real weakness is more how they don't contribute to fights with large numbers of enemies sometimes. Namaste :)

Fidel Cuckstro fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Dec 11, 2013

Kibayasu
Mar 28, 2010

Someone at Obsidian really liked those Kerfluffle Marshmallows the company backed during the kickstarter. The jewel thing at the bottom of the frame has a randomized link, most of them dealing with Pillars, but one leading to the Kerfluffles website.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Well, I've seen more than a few people expressing dissatisfaction over fighters being slow-and-steady defender types. If you want to be a melee character who hops around and breaks engagement and ganks someone for a boatload of damage before getting smacked hard and falling down, play a rogue. Rogues in PE aren't "Oi Govna" street urchins who pick pockets as their main profession. They're skirmishers and opportunistic killers (whether soldiers or actual thugs/assassins) in the vein of Bronn.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Fucker posted:

I had no expectations, did not even pitch in on the Kickstarter. Just making an observation as someone that could buy the game when it comes out.

Having no expectations is a fantasy. Basically, that you even mentioned Diablo 3 in the same sentence shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what you're hypothetically getting into. At a conservative estimate, Pillars of Eternity is operating off 10% of the budget of Diablo 3. Likely far less.

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

Everyone who played 4e loved Wardens. Ok we are cool now.

*sheathes his hanzo steel*

edit- I think the important thing is having some ability to manage groups of enemies, since in my experience with ISO RPGs the fighter's real weakness is more how they don't contribute to fights with large numbers of enemies sometimes. Namaste :)

This is because Wardens are the objectively superior Defender.

surc
Aug 17, 2004

Fucker posted:

I had no expectations, did not even pitch in on the Kickstarter. Just making an observation as someone that could buy the game when it comes out.

The OP posted:

The stated goal is to create an experience reminiscent of classic Infinity Engine franchises, such as Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, and Baldur's Gate.

I don't know if you've ever played infinity engine games, but Pillars of Eternity basically takes the style of artwork used in those games and ups the quality an incredible amount. I guess if you don't like the style, you don't like the style?

Icewind Dale II:


Baldurs Gate 2:


(I didn't include any torment screenshots, because sigil is a pretty unique looking environment).



Also, maybe you should not phrase your observations like that. For example I disagree with your post, and think it used unnecessarily confrontational language.

Vs.

Your posting is subpar, and your points are poo poo. (Especially about the art, that one is laugh out loud worthy).

:shrug: I don't know, it's not that much extra work to express your opinion on something in a vaguely constructive manner instead of just saying "This is all not good enough, especially the lovely part".

surc fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 11, 2013

Fucker
Jan 4, 2013

Captain Oblivious posted:

Having no expectations is a fantasy. Basically, that you even mentioned Diablo 3 in the same sentence shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what you're hypothetically getting into. At a conservative estimate, Pillars of Eternity is operating off 10% of the budget of Diablo 3. Likely far less.

Ok? :confused: I observed that the art was subpar and you explained why that was the case. The game has less budget, I understand that.

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

rope kid posted:

in the vein of Bronn.

Will there be Tits n Whores in PE? tyia

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

edit- I think the important thing is having some ability to manage groups of enemies, since in my experience with ISO RPGs the fighter's real weakness is more how they don't contribute to fights with large numbers of enemies sometimes. Namaste :)
Fighters' basic Defender mode increases their number of Melee Engagement targets by two (to a total of three). It makes a big difference. One fighter in Defender can stop forward enemy motion as well as three other melee characters. For really chopping into groups of enemies, that's what barbarians (and their Carnage ability) are for.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

rope kid posted:

Well, I've seen more than a few people expressing dissatisfaction over fighters being slow-and-steady defender types. If you want to be a melee character who hops around and breaks engagement and ganks someone for a boatload of damage before getting smacked hard and falling down, play a rogue. Rogues in PE aren't "Oi Govna" street urchins who pick pockets as their main profession. They're skirmishers and opportunistic killers (whether soldiers or actual thugs/assassins) in the vein of Bronn.

I'm perfectly fine with it, bit maybe you should just "manage expectations" and change the names of the classes from fighter/rogue to something where people have less inbuilt D&D preconceptions?

Like warrior/swashbuckler or something? Or Defender/stabasaurus rex.

Male Man
Aug 16, 2008

Im, too sexy for your teatime
Too sexy for your teatime
That tea that you're just driiinkiing

Fucker posted:

Ok? :confused: I observed that the art was subpar and you explained why that was the case. The game has less budget, I understand that.

What's par?

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Fucker posted:

Ok? :confused: I observed that the art was subpar and you explained why that was the case. The game has less budget, I understand that.

The art is great, the character models are serviceable, the animations and spell effects leave something to be desired.

What I'm hinting at here is that more nuanced observations make for more worthwhile posts. "art bad" communicates nothing of worth.

Clever Spambot
Sep 16, 2009

You've lost that lovin' feeling,
Now it's gone...gone...
GONE....

Fintilgin posted:

I'm perfectly fine with it, bit maybe you should just "manage expectations" and change the names of the classes from fighter/rogue to something where people have less inbuilt D&D preconceptions?

Like warrior/swashbuckler or something? Or Defender/stabasaurus rex.

I'd be willing to bet not having classes named after the classic D&D classes would upset people more than having them function slightly differently.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Fintilgin posted:

I'm perfectly fine with it, bit maybe you should just "manage expectations" and change the names of the classes from fighter/rogue to something where people have less inbuilt D&D preconceptions?

Like warrior/swashbuckler or something? Or Defender/stabasaurus rex.

Trying to psychologically manipulate grognards is a losing battle.

You will only cause yourself grief, infinite grief.

Hakkesshu
Nov 4, 2009


The animation and spell effects look a lot like the ones in Shadowrun Returns. Is it a Unity thing?

Either way, I think it generally looks better than Shadowrun, but the only thing I think looks kind of iffy in that trailer is the fireball gibbing. The monsters just erupt into like four gibs without any sense of impact - Baldur's Gate did a better job than that, I feel, even if it's a similar effect.

turn off the TV
Aug 4, 2010

moderately annoying
Personally I would like it if character shadows matched the background's lighting direction, which is what bothered me the most in the trailer.

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY
Someone who's got experience with game tooling: how much effort would it take to adapt the tooling for a game like PE to a turn based game?

Y'know, seeing as there's this other Kickstarter coming up and all.

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Fish Fry Andy posted:

Personally I would like it if character shadows matched the background's lighting direction, which is what bothered me the most in the trailer.

I was gonna say "can't be done because of prerendering etc", but thinking about it you probably could define a layer that tells the dropshadows which direction the prerendered shadows are in.

Cake Smashing Boob
Nov 5, 2008

I support black genocide

rope kid posted:

Rogues in PE aren't "Oi Govna" street urchins who pick pockets as their main profession.

The real money was always in Big Magic and white-collar crime anyway.

:colbert:

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Fintilgin posted:

I'm perfectly fine with it, bit maybe you should just "manage expectations" and change the names of the classes from fighter/rogue to something where people have less inbuilt D&D preconceptions?
The expectation to manage is that fighters will absorb and deal high damage in equal parts and that rogues are a combat benchwarmer skill class. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to preserve that expectation because I believe it has traditionally been one of the worst aspects of pre-4E class design.

turn off the TV
Aug 4, 2010

moderately annoying

coffeetable posted:

I was gonna say "can't be done because of prerendering etc", but thinking about it you probably could define a layer that tells the dropshadows which direction the prerendered shadows are in.

Yeah, I was thinking something like that. I don't really know how feasible it is, but the character shadows seem to change in between the different shots in the trailer, but they never really line up with what's going on in the scene.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

Hakkesshu posted:

The animation and spell effects look a lot like the ones in Shadowrun Returns. Is it a Unity thing?

Either way, I think it generally looks better than Shadowrun, but the only thing I think looks kind of iffy in that trailer is the fireball gibbing. The monsters just erupt into like four gibs without any sense of impact - Baldur's Gate did a better job than that, I feel, even if it's a similar effect.

As someone who played Shadowrun Returns recently, the spell effects are already infinitely better looking in this game. Fireballs actually have an impact instead of being an orange orb that just impotently bumps into the enemy. Spell effects in that game are so bland and uninteresting.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

rope kid posted:

Well, I've seen more than a few people expressing dissatisfaction over fighters being slow-and-steady defender types.

My main character was always a Dwarven Defender in NWN so thank you and screw them. However I think some people have a point when they associate certain class names to certain D&D archetypes, especially since PoE is a spiritual children to all those D&D games but not realy.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

rope kid posted:

The expectation to manage is that fighters will absorb and deal high damage in equal parts and that rogues are a combat benchwarmer skill class. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to preserve that expectation because I believe it has traditionally been one of the worst aspects of pre-4E class design.

Right, and it might be easier to do that by not using the same class names that are tied to years and years of D&D preconceptions. V:shobon:V

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Furism posted:

My main character was always a Dwarven Defender in NWN so thank you and screw them. However I think some people have a point when they associate certain class names to certain D&D archetypes, especially since PoE is a spiritual children to all those D&D games but not realy.
Certainly, and when those expectations can be accommodated without negatively impacting something else in the game, we should do so. E.g., people wanted paladins to have an equivalent to Smite. They're not damage-dealing characters in our design, but that doesn't mean they can't have a limited-use "pow" ability, so we added Flames of Devotion, which has limited uses per rest.

When talking about fighters and rogues, specifically, some people have the expectation that fighters should get both the defensive abilities and the high damage output and that rogues should -- at best -- get some form of sneak attack but ultimately be skill characters. That's not something I think we should support at all.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Fintilgin posted:

Right, and it might be easier to do that by not using the same class names that are tied to years and years of D&D preconceptions. V:shobon:V
It would be easier, but on this specific issue, I think it's more important for people to lose those preconceptions.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang
I think rope kid's master plan is to make Pillars of Eternity the new standard, and take RPG crown from D&D's charred, smitten body.

PS: They should totally do that.

evilmiera
Dec 14, 2009

Status: Ravenously Rambunctious

Furism posted:

I think rope kid's master plan is to make Pillars of Eternity the new standard, and take RPG crown from D&D's charred, smitten body.

PS: They should totally do that.

They should, and they will! At least, if we keep throwing money at them, yeah?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

4E already made those changes to fighters/rogues and it was the right thing to do.

sure okay
Apr 7, 2006





I'm gonna have to second (third?) the animation critique. They look really stiff. There's really noting "high budget" or "low budget" about animation, other than hiring a more skilled animator and paying them more.

I assume animators are making their own rigs, seeing as how simple they are. There is always the case of a rigger just making GBS threads out bad rigs which on some titles I've worked on I've seen as a factor in the stiffness. Animators who make their own rigs rarely make bad ones (unless they're bad/lazy animators) because, well, they make what they need.

My educated guess is your art director or lead animator prefers the stiff look, because that's their interpretation of the genre. It's "nostalgic" or whatever, but to be honest it looks cheap. I see a reluctance to move the legs and hips dramatically, move characters off their origin point (or Main bone, as some tools call it), do any spinning or arcing sweeps, or do any Z movement.

All classes (as far as I can tell) share the same run cycle too which I could chalk up to being something on your "to-do" list before launch but I would warn you against having any delusions of shipping with that. It's a waste of a modelers time to make different gear sets only to have the animators homogenize them into one synchronous clone-like blob. Give them different run cycles, please.

Games like D3 employ a lot of tricks to give their game an extra oomph, and I don't think anyone expects that here. Turn rate deceleration, run->stop animations, pre-cast tech, 1000 different degrees of camera shaking, to name a few. We don't need any of that. Just loosen up the animations.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

rope kid posted:

It would be easier, but on this specific issue, I think it's more important for people to lose those preconceptions.

Good luck being an off-brand version of D&D while still changing years of built in preconceptions that go with it! :v:


(No, seriously, I'm on your side here, but...)



EDIT: I guess I'm weird. I don't see anything wrong with the animations. I think the whole thing looks great. But, I'll admit, I tend not to notice that sort of thing.

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

The animations are pre-alpha.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

coffeetable posted:

The animations are pre-alpha.

They are. But the points are all still valid and well made.

The animations in the trailer aren't a huge deal simply because I'm working on the assumption that, release date being as far away as it is, they won't stay that way. It's good progress but obviously not acceptable long term.

Nothing wrong with pointing out how and why they need to change though.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

ASK ME ABOUT BEING A MASSIVE ARTISTIC SHITLORD ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.

I AM A TREMENDOUS FIRETRUCK AND MY BURGERS ARE OUT OF CONTROL


:spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin::spergin:
Is there gonna be non-hit reaction, hit reactions?

Since hit reactions are limited to Disengagement attacks, will there be a "blood" animation + "Ow" sound or something, when someone gets hit ? I liked the IE hit reactions.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying
Wait, does "Winter 2014" mean in two months or in a year?

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Sensuki posted:

Is there gonna be non-hit reaction, hit reactions?

Since hit reactions are limited to Disengagement attacks, will there be a "blood" animation + "Ow" sound or something, when someone gets hit ? I liked the IE hit reactions.
We will likely blend hit reactions that aren't actual stuns/knockdowns. There will always be blood or fire/ice/electricity/acid burn particles.

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