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Don't forget nethack also makes you take off your cape before you can put on/take off armour, and your armour before your shirt. It's super maddening sometimes. Hey nethack, see if my cape is cursed and if not please just cut me a loving break.
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Dec 12, 2013 19:59
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Higsian posted:Don't forget nethack also makes you take off your cape before you can put on/take off armour, and your armour before your shirt. It's super maddening sometimes. Hey nethack, see if my cape is cursed and if not please just cut me a loving break. Yeah that is true, I'm sure I've forgotten a lot of "nice-to-haves" over the years. Remember to take off your cape and armour to put on your tee-shirt. I could imagine it going the other direction too, "You can't possibly eat that slice of pizza with that helmet on".
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Dec 12, 2013 20:06
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Jeffrey posted:I certainly wouldn't want things to go in the dungeons of dredmor direction. What specifically do you find problematic about Dungeons of Dredmor? I mean, it's a drastically simplified roguelike, yes; is that all you object to? Simplification? I mean, my main problem with Dredmor, when I was still playing it (I think they'v released about 400 expansions since then) is that combat didn't really have all that much thinking to it. Most monsters were melee-only; if they had spells they cast them randomly and you couldn't really plan around them; you either successfully tanked attacks or avoided getting hit altogether (or some weird middle ground where you tanked for a bit, then used escape abilities to run away and heal). The actual user interface was fine, though. Maybe a bit too reliant on the mouse, but it worked without any issue, especially once they updated the crafting UI.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:06
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What specifically do you find problematic about Dungeons of Dredmor? I mean, it's a drastically simplified roguelike, yes; is that all you object to? Simplification? I found myself really annoyed by the animations that played every time you used an ability. I think you could turn them up but they were still slow, and variable length so you couldn't even predict them. That was my largest UI grudge. I prefer ascii to tiles but I can accept that as my own weird grognard-y quirk. I certainly wasn't opposed to the streamlining of abilities, that's all fine, and ToME4 does it nicely. (I also played it early and without those 400 expansions as well, maybe they made it better.)
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Dec 12, 2013 20:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What specifically do you find problematic about Dungeons of Dredmor? I mean, it's a drastically simplified roguelike, yes; is that all you object to? Simplification? It's slow. Seriously, adding lengthy combat and movement animations is the worst thing that could happen to graphical roguelikes.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:11
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Ah, yeah, I always jacked up the animation speed to like 300% or something; makes the game far better.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:26
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It must be nice to be able to play ASCII. My brain absolutely needs visual representations to process most stuff
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Dec 12, 2013 20:32
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An ASCII mode for Dredmor would be both hilarious and practical.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:32
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Corridor posted:It must be nice to be able to play ASCII. My brain absolutely needs visual representations to process most stuff It's weird, I'm the exact opposite. I see a brown g, that's a goblin, case closed. I see some fiddly drawing and I dunno if its a goblin or a kobold or a gnoll and you could swap them and I probably wouldn't notice. I assumed it was because I have tons of practice in immediately recognizing letters that I don't have for drawings of humanoid monsters, but who knows. I'm jealous of tiles users being able to see enemy equipment at a glance though, too often I forget to do that and take unnecessary risks by not doing so. EDIT: If I ever make a roguelike with a tiles option, all my tiles would be anthropomorphic letters with arms and legs and teeth, like the crawl orb guardians.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:37
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Zombie Samurai posted:An ASCII mode for Dredmor would be both hilarious and practical. If they weren't hard at work on their next game I could totally see Gaslamp releasing a tile pack that just replaces all of the graphics with pictures of text 
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Dec 12, 2013 20:38
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I always wanted to see someone rig up one of the old classic roguelikes with a 3D first-person perspective where all of the monsters and so on would be represented by 3D models of ASCII characters. Mostly because I want there to be a roguelike with a Helm of Rear-View Mirror.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:44
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Jeffrey posted:Crawl's ui isn't THAT different from nethack's, save for autoexplore. It's funny that after all these years there are still separate buttons for "[r]ead" vs "[q]uaff" and [W]ear vs [P]ut on. I mean I'm talking about ascii mode here, but that's the best mode anyway. I don't mind having those different keys though. It allows me to look at what options I have in each class of item a lot more effectively than one massive [U]se list.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:48
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I certainly wouldn't want things to go in the dungeons of dredmor direction.
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Dredmor has a lot of problems. Last time I sat down and tried to play in earnest I just got so bored and frustrated. Crafting is utterly useless because by like floor 6 any weapon you find will do much more damage then anything you could craft. The game is slow and clunky and levels are way too huge. Even on small level mode the levels take too long to clear (not to mention small levels is broken and nearly impossible past a certain point). Even after like 10 hours on one character and playing pretty normally, I still didn't even get close to reaching the half way point. It's mindless and there's no long term goals other than "look for better item" and "kill monsters". In a game like Adom or Crawl I always have an idea of where I want to go next or what I need to prepare to get ready. Do I need to get the ring of high kings? What do I need to prepare to get that item? Stuff like that. Dredmor is directionless (or, I suppose, one direction-down) and feels lifeless and dull once you realize once you've cleared the first three levels all you're going to see is the same things but recolored. Dredmor might have some charm and nice art but I'd say to anyone who's new to RLs to try Crawl.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:50
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Tollymain posted:I don't mind having those different keys though. It allows me to look at what options I have in each class of item a lot more effectively than one massive [U]se list. It's not a big problem to me and I could go either way on it, it's been normal for me for many years. I just imagine it is pretty obtuse to have to remember what is a scroll vs what is a potion for a new player, and having to use different keys makes it worse. The fact that reading scrolls is overloaded with reading books seems kind of strange too, as if they are grouped by what body part uses them and not what sort of effect they do.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:50
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I always wanted to see someone rig up one of the old classic roguelikes with a 3D first-person perspective where all of the monsters and so on would be represented by 3D models of ASCII characters. Not quite the same, but a few years ago someone tried to make a real-time 3D angband variant.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I always wanted to see someone rig up one of the old classic roguelikes with a 3D first-person perspective where all of the monsters and so on would be represented by 3D models of ASCII characters.  Hey there
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Dec 12, 2013 21:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's slow. Seriously, adding lengthy combat and movement animations is the worst thing that could happen to graphical roguelikes. This was actually a reasonably tricky thing to manage in Sproggiwood. With un-cancelable movement and attack animations, it just felt way too clunky compared to a traditional non-animated roguelike. We ended up with a system that feels pretty snappy by ensuring the animations are pretty short, that as many animations as possible simply play "on top" of an advanced game state (thus not blocking play), and that any animation sequence that can reasonably be cancelled immediately is cancelled when the next command is issued. So you can walk around normally, or spam movement to the greatest degree we can provide. When you spam a movement key in the middle of a move animation, it just short circuits the tween so you pop into the next square and begin moving from there. Unormal fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 21:21
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Space Bat posted:Dredmor has a lot of problems. Last time I sat down and tried to play in earnest I just got so bored and frustrated. Crafting is utterly useless because by like floor 6 any weapon you find will do much more damage then anything you could craft. The game is slow and clunky and levels are way too huge. Even on small level mode the levels take too long to clear (not to mention small levels is broken and nearly impossible past a certain point). Even after like 10 hours on one character and playing pretty normally, I still didn't even get close to reaching the half way point. It's mindless and there's no long term goals other than "look for better item" and "kill monsters". In a game like Adom or Crawl I always have an idea of where I want to go next or what I need to prepare to get ready. Do I need to get the ring of high kings? What do I need to prepare to get that item? Stuff like that. Dredmor is directionless (or, I suppose, one direction-down) and feels lifeless and dull once you realize once you've cleared the first three levels all you're going to see is the same things but recolored. Dredmor might have some charm and nice art but I'd say to anyone who's new to RLs to try Crawl. This is exactly my problem with Dredmor. Once I get to level 5 or so it's just so drat dull that I stop. Every floor is the same.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:50
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Space Bat posted:Dredmor might have some charm and nice art but I'd say to anyone who's new to RLs to try Crawl. I realize I'm the game's biggest fangirl ever but seriously anybody looking to get into roguelikes should hunt down the DS Shiren the Wanderer, it has everything you could possibly want from an introduction to the genre.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:52
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I played the SNES Shiren rather than the DS version, but another thing that game has going for it is that it's gorgeous. I almost wish those graphics had been used for a more casual, exploration-driven game, just so you could wander idly around and appreciate them more rather than always thinking about tactics and starvation.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:55
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I thought shiren was too boring and minimalist even with the npcs unlocked 
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Dec 12, 2013 21:57
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Corridor posted:I thought shiren was too boring and minimalist even with the npcs unlocked I can kind of see it for a veteran player, but I think they were talking about using it as an introduction to the genre. Also, even if it's simple it's not as if it isn't challenging.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:59
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quiggy stardust posted:I realize I'm the game's biggest fangirl ever but seriously anybody looking to get into roguelikes should hunt down the DS Shiren the Wanderer, it has everything you could possibly want from an introduction to the genre. Eh, Shiren is a good mystery dungeon game but I think a great newbie roguelike is Powder. That's what got me first interested into the genre, it's not too complicated and has a lot of the aspects of more complex roguelikes without getting too complicated.
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Dec 12, 2013 22:08
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Space Bat posted:Eh, Shiren is a good mystery dungeon game but I think a great newbie roguelike is Powder. That's what got me first interested into the genre, it's not too complicated and has a lot of the aspects of more complex roguelikes without getting too complicated. What I like about Shiren, especially as an introductory roguelike, is that it's hard but not punishingly so. The more you play it later runs will get just a little bit easier as you unlock warehouses and NPCs and such. It's still not easy, not by a long shot, but being able to say "well at least I made Pekeji a little stronger this run" makes you feel less like you were just wasting your time next time you get eaten alive.
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Dec 12, 2013 22:35
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I always wanted to see someone rig up one of the old classic roguelikes with a 3D first-person perspective where all of the monsters and so on would be represented by 3D models of ASCII characters. Doom: the Roguelike: the Doomlike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw7y4_JDkRM
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Dec 12, 2013 23:22
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Morholt posted:Doom: the Roguelike: the Doomlike Yessss...it's just as beautiful and impossible to play as I imagined
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Dec 12, 2013 23:37
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Morholt posted:Doom: the Roguelike: the Doomlike Holy poo poo
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Dec 13, 2013 01:22
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Imagine how ridiculous it would be trying to play that with the tileset. That would drive me insane.
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Dec 13, 2013 01:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I played the SNES Shiren rather than the DS version, but another thing that game has going for it is that it's gorgeous. I almost wish those graphics had been used for a more casual, exploration-driven game, just so you could wander idly around and appreciate them more rather than always thinking about tactics and starvation. It's amazing what a little bit of animation can do to the game experience compared to static tiles. Give me a two-frame animation, something that can compare to an NES RPG at minimum otherwise I'll be more comfy with ASCII.
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Dec 13, 2013 01:36
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Zombie Samurai posted:An ASCII mode for Dredmor would be both hilarious and practical. This is the closest yet(yet still not really there), though I don't know exactly what all is afoot in the Steam Workshop community for the game anymore to good or interesting aims---I know this hasn't been updated in awhile but still. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=112213725 ASCII Invasion
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Dec 13, 2013 01:55
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Dungeonmans is a great roguelike, try it if you haven't! It's still pre-alpha but it's shaping up amazingly.
Tempora Mutantur fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2013 03:01
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ToME is on steam now, so I just went over to the website for the first time in a while. I had forgotten all about the T-Engine module competition. Looks like 6 games, including Mosaic (an interesting 7DRL entry). http://te4.org/contest/vote/2013 Anyone play any of them?
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Dec 13, 2013 04:04
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Oh my, oh my, I may be lost in TOME for some time. What an absurd amount of things to read! There's no reason a 7HP slime should get a massive panel of text for you to intricately go over, but it's there! Also, loved the goofy stuff happening at the bottom of the choose-your-icon page. Wanna be an @ with a Mario hat and a plunger? Or a giant lich? Or R2-D2? Yeah, sure, go for it! I'd heard about it in the past, but it wasn't until someone mentioned the 1,225 achievements that I stopped to look at it. A lot are just repeats for different modes/difficulties, but still. That's nutty. Seems like there's a crazy amount of content for 6 bucks, too. Sad I never followed this one closer until now! Space Bat posted:Dredmor has a lot of problems[...] I think the biggest issue I had with the game was less the speed and more the fact that Dredmor himself is so powerful that if you weren't super prepared with a ton of high-end items and the ability to huck either projectiles or magic, you didn't stand the ghost of a chance. I'd love to see someone with all the DLC try to take out Dredmor on Going Rogue with Permadeath as a Melee-only character because I don't think it's actually possible to do. I like playing Rogues in these games, and man, that went poorly when I got to him. Never was able to beat him as anything other than a caster, and that was before the DLC hit and dropped him five more floors.
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Dec 13, 2013 09:21
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My stance on commercial roguelikes: fun to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. I feel like most roguelikes just aren't that good for the first few years they're being developed. It takes a while for a game to hit its stride and figure out what gameplay niche it's servicing. I don't see a commercial game becoming the next Crawl or Nethack.
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Dec 13, 2013 09:36
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I got One-Way Heroics and got to like 300k as a knight, but I had an awesome sword on me when I died, and now it's not in my inventory so I can't put it in my vault...?
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Dec 13, 2013 09:40
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Ok ToME, what are you doing?
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Dec 13, 2013 13:51
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Jeffrey posted:Crawl's ui isn't THAT different from nethack's, save for autoexplore. It's funny that after all these years there are still separate buttons for "[r]ead" vs "[q]uaff" and [W]ear vs [P]ut on. I mean I'm talking about ascii mode here, but that's the best mode anyway. Crawl has a lot of keys available, but it can be boiled down to movement, a couple abilities (spellcasting etc), and the inventory button. There are tons of keys for interacting with items, but you can basically do everything through the inventory menu on 'i', it's just slower. Basically 90% of the interface in Crawl is there for lazy people. Can't really say that about roguelikes from the 90's and earlier. Of course most players use tiles anyway so they can just use the mouse instead.
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Dec 13, 2013 14:04
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So do you have to buy TOME now that's it's on steam or is it still free or what? It's a pretty awesome game but I don't know if it's worth paying money for when so many great roguelikes are completely free. Although supporting the dev wouldn't be that awful considering how much work he puts in.
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Dec 13, 2013 15:49
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Bob NewSCART posted:So do you have to buy TOME now that's it's on steam or is it still free or what? It's a pretty awesome game but I don't know if it's worth paying money for when so many great roguelikes are completely free. Although supporting the dev wouldn't be that awful considering how much work he puts in. On the Steam page it says buying it is basically the same thing as donating. You can still get it for free.
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Dec 13, 2013 15:50
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EvilMike posted:Crawl has a lot of keys available, but it can be boiled down to movement, a couple abilities (spellcasting etc), and the inventory button. There are tons of keys for interacting with items, but you can basically do everything through the inventory menu on 'i', it's just slower. Basically 90% of the interface in Crawl is there for lazy people. Can't really say that about roguelikes from the 90's and earlier. You are right that Crawl has more coherent ui that is discoverable from the inventory menu, I hadn't really thought of it that way. It's probably because I tried out nethack buttons that I learned them before learning about the options from the inventory menu. Most players really use the mouse? I mean I believe you, that's just insane to me. I get annoyed at moving my hands in numpad-only games, I can't fathom switching to the mouse. Vim keys are seared into my brain at this point so maybe I just don't remember the learning curve there. Do people primarily use the mouse for inventory and long-distance movement? I wonder if it is worth submitting a patch for terminal mouse support in ascii mode... Also yeah, you can play ToME for free, it is open source and stuff. There's just always been a donate option, and that's what's on steam. When I last checked you get new classes earlier and a slot to pass items between characters(!!) when you donate. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Dec 13, 2013 |
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Dec 13, 2013 16:00
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