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100 HOGS AGREE posted:I don't know what roguelikes you're playing but most of them do not have complex combat mechanics. I think he means complex in terms of breadth of decision-making to be done during combat, not necessarily many abilities to use. To me ToME, crawl, nethack, etc all fall under this category, do you disagree? I had to double-take at this one.
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Dec 17, 2013 16:51
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 13:55 |
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I dunno most of the roguelikes I've played, aside from ToME boil down to "mash into enemy in a 1 tile corridor" But I'm bad at roguelikes and hoard wands and scrolls like an idiot and never play spellcasting classes.
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Dec 17, 2013 16:54
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I think you're underselling it a little bit. When to stand your ground/reposition/run away/use a consumable is interesting, though obviously that doesn't happen in every encounter. To me the combat is defined by the tough encounters, ie, the ones where hitting tab a bunch won't always work. How one reacts to changing circumstances over the course of an encounter is where the complexity is.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:05
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Hey, can I offer one more write-up for the contest? Because I went back to Hack Slash Loot the other night and I think it deserves a mention. Also seems germane to the discussion underway. Hack Slash Loot Cost: $7.00   Genre: Turn-based Action RPG Graphics: Tile-based sprites Platform: Windows, Mac, Linux Let's Plays: None that I know of Forks: No Do not play this game.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:16
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Okay, seriously... Do you want a roguelike without any of the progression or strategy of the classics? One with no levels, no skills, no crafting, and no direction? Then you MIGHT like Hack Slash Loot, depending on your tolerance of RNG fuckery. The game drops you into a nondescript dungeon upon picking one of maybe half a dozen quests and sends you off to hunt and peck through samey rooms and corridors. The ONLY character progression in the game is finding new gear laying around. That's also 50% of the game right there, because the other half is mashing your face (or mouse button if you're the archer) against random enemies. There is Your success or failure in the game is entirely dependent on what the RNG decides to give you in each room. There's no health regen or healing skills, so the only way you're getting your HP back is finding random potions, which forces you forward. Will the next room contain the healing elixir you need, or another 5 angry goblins? 9 times out of 10, the answer's going to have you looking at the game over screen. Except there isn't a game over screen, it just dumps you back to the quest selection menu. Seriously, do not play this game. Too Shy Guy fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 17:17
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Haha. Works for me, that counts as an entry.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:25
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I bought it when it was on sale for $2 I think and I still feel like I spent too much.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:34
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There were 18 entries to the contest. The list is as follows: madjackmcmad (Meritous) Glidergun (Incursion) andrew smash (Desktop Dungeons, Rogue Legacy, Isle of Bxnes) Corridor (Pixel Dungeon, Don't Starve) quiggy stardust (FTL) Emong (One Way Heroics) drink_bleach (Binding of Isaac) Zombie Samurai (IVAN) Pladdicus (You only live once) Naar (Teleglitch, Infra Arcana) korora (Legerdemain) Trickyrive (Spelunky) doctorfrog (Sir You are Being Hunted) Zombie Samurai (Hack Slash Loot) There are six prizes being given away: FTL Risk of Rain Dungeonmans (thanks again madjackmcmad) Every entry was assigned a number from 1-18 (in the order listed above), and I used randomizer.org to come up with the winning entries, which are: 14 - Naar for Infra Arcana 15 - korora for Legerdemain 17 - doctorfrog for Sir You are Being Hunted Also, Corridor you win something random for doing 2 write ups. I'm going to let people pick, in exactly the order listed above (from andrew smash to doctorfrog), what prize they want. If you already own the prize, feel free to re-gift it, obviously.  Winners, post your steam ID and your choice. Thanks to everyone who participated.
Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 17:38
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 Nice work, plenty of good new games listed there
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Dec 17, 2013 17:50
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madjackmcmad posted:There was a time (2009ish) when I had considered taking Dungeonmans down the more serious simulation route, but I turned away. It didn't feel like the type of game I really wanted to make, I sort of felt like I was just checking off Roguelike Checkboxes. Complex inventory, weight, special pickup commands, stuff like oh you got wet some point within the last 50 rounds so this cold attack hurts 2% more and if your stremf is too low you might catch a cold which will cause you to sneeze and ruin your stealth but also gives you a +5 defense against nasal maladies such as disease mold and... The complex interactions. First of all I think people exaggerate how much of a problem the need for spoilers is. It's definitely not the game's biggest problem, probably not even in the top three or so. The problem really lies in the necessity for the player to use the really boring and tedious interactions to survive. I certainly never had the patience to survive as tourist or even as wizard, because it involved writing elbereth every 100 loving turns which takes hours of real world time, and using darts and whatever lovely daggers you find lying around to attack with for a significant part of the game, etc, etc. They would be fun and interesting mechanics if you didn't have to heavily abuse them to actually beat the game. Most of the interactions in the game aren't this, though, they're just fun and interesting to varying degrees, although some not as much as others. Beyond that the fact that the game has a sort of story and unique levels that don't consist of boring maze and don't fit some pattern of 'here's the undead branch, here's the sewers branch, here's the spiders branch, here's the hell branch, etc'. The castle, medusa's lair, the elemental planes, the dwarven mines, sokoban, the quest; The fact that I can list so many off the top of my head without having played it in a long time says something. But then again there's gehennom which is terrible. Nethack is really incredible because it has, at the same time, some of the best game design I've ever seen, and some really really bad game design along with it, possibly in equal parts. I've always been of the opinion that a game consistently as good as nethack's good half would be basically a Michelangelo level masterpiece. I don't want to praise the game too much, but it does seem to be cool to hate in a hipster-y fashion, and lots of the critics of the game seem to think its interactions are dwarf fortress adventure style "you hurt your left tendon and now have a -3% accuracy penalty with crossbows only", when it's actually not like that at all. The variety is variety in environment and story, and how the player interacts with it, not in random number stats. Basically games like ToME and Dredmor feel sort of dead inside, even though they deliver that experience at a consistent level of quality, and the reason for this is that they don't have the same meaningful interactions between the player and the story and game world. I don't think it's an invalid approach to making a game, but I don't think they do it very well. I think Dungeon Crawl does the 'homogenous dungeon crawler' approach better, with a better balance between variety and consistency. I'm not impressed by Dredmor's sense of humor, and ToME feels like really boring lord of the rings fanfiction. Brogue goes another direction entirely and throws out the lore, environmental variety and character building dress-up game and goes just for tactical depth, and it does it very very well IMO. You can focus on allies, stealth, environment manipulation, magic, or melee, and all of these work equally well and you aren't forced to choose any one beyond what you get as item drops. So that fills my quota for writing walls of text about roguelikes for a long time. If I keep going please stop me. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 17:52
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Actually the thing I hate the most about nethack is your stupid starting pet and how annoying it is to try to get that thing to follow you down the stairs properly early on when standing around waiting for it or backtracking to look for it means you could end up starving to death  I've had some games where I got a really drat useful pet but regardless the only way I've ever not felt completely frustrated by pet wrangling is when I find a magic whistle
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Dec 17, 2013 18:03
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Hah, I hate pets. Actually one of the major reasons I don't like Brogue.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:04
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my steam ID is andrew_smash and i'll take risk of rain. thanks for running the contest!
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Dec 17, 2013 18:07
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I also hate pets in nethack, so I play with pettype:none in my options unless I'm doing a gimmick run that requires one. Problem solved!
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Dec 17, 2013 18:21
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andrew smash posted:my steam ID is andrew_smash and i'll take risk of rain. thanks for running the contest! cool. Except "The specified profile could not be found."
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Dec 17, 2013 18:24
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Zombie Samurai posted:Hey, can I offer one more write-up for the contest? Because I went back to Hack Slash Loot the other night and I think it deserves a mention. Also seems germane to the discussion underway. Although I'm too late, this is also my entry except replace it with Cardinal Quest.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:32
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Levitate posted:Actually the thing I hate the most about nethack is your stupid starting pet and how annoying it is to try to get that thing to follow you down the stairs properly early on when standing around waiting for it or backtracking to look for it means you could end up starving to death One of the first things I did when learning how to mod the source code for SLASH'EM was have the Necromancer start with a magic whistle. Because holy crap if you think the NORMAL starting pets are annoying, try herding around a ghoul that moves half your speed.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:39
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..btt posted:I also hate pets in nethack, so I play with pettype:none in my options unless I'm doing a gimmick run that requires one. Problem solved! I had a feeling this was possible but was too lazy to check
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Dec 17, 2013 18:51
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Space Bat posted:Although I'm too late, this is also my entry except replace it with Cardinal Quest.  You have bad opinions.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:52
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Steam Profile I guess I'll take SotS: The Pit. Thanks!
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Dec 17, 2013 19:04
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Jordan7hm posted:There are six prizes being given away: There was a contest? I was just trying to be cool like everyone else and do a writeup. Since I'm last in line, here are my preferences in order:
Steam name: _doctorfrog_ (http://steamcommunity.com/id/doctorfrog/). I actually have FTL on my Steam account, and you can feel free to re-gift it if it's what's left, otherwise, I'll be happy to pass it on. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 19:06
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Jordan7hm posted:cool. Except "The specified profile could not be found." I dunno man. this is me: http://steamcommunity.com/id/andrew_smash I'm bad at steam
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Dec 17, 2013 19:10
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Jordan7hm posted:
 Well, you're entitled to your wrong opinion as well, bub.
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Dec 17, 2013 20:01
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Jordan7hm posted:10 - drink_bleach for BoI steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/daysinfected/ choice: Teleglitch This is what being a winner feels like. Roguelikes have given me stockholm syndrome.
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Dec 17, 2013 20:16
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I just got a dude in Rogue Legacy with the trait "The One: there is no spork", and can't figure out what the hell that means edit: never mind, apparently it makes things crazy
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Dec 17, 2013 20:46
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Yeah, looks like Rogue Legacy just updated with a content patch today. A few new things and thankfully some good balance stuff. http://steamcommunity.com/games/241600/announcements/detail/1352501745977362675
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Dec 17, 2013 20:57
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:Yeah, looks like Rogue Legacy just updated with a content patch today. A few new things and thankfully some good balance stuff. Ah jesus now I have to go back to playing it.
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Dec 17, 2013 21:06
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I'll take Dungeonmans if it gets to me, otherwise Risk of Rain. This is me: http://steamcommunity.com/id/korora
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Dec 17, 2013 21:11
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Haha I win "something random"  (what does that mean) e. I ike how the guy who did the most write ups got first anyway, somehow Corridor fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 21:58
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Awesome! I already backed Dungeonmans, so I'd like Risk of Rain. Steam profile.
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Dec 17, 2013 21:58
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Corridor posted:Haha I win "something random" Dunno, post your steam ID.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:14
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Goon made Legend of Dungeon just had a huge updatequote:In honor of the 1 year anniversary of our Kickstarter getting 650% funded, Version Tormentor is now live!
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Dec 17, 2013 22:16
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The daily dungeon thing Spelunky does (and the challenges Brogue does) are great ideas and I'm glad more games are picking that up.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:20
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Really spelunky and every other roguelike should let one set a seed that allows people to compete on with the same dungeon/loot. (There's some technical details making it harder to graft it on to some roguelikes than others.) My friend patched nethack to let us do this and playing together was pretty fun, we could say things like "turn around or your pet is going to die" if one of us was ahead.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:33
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Does tome have a tab autofight hotkey yet? It's so annoying having an auto explore but then having to attack poo poo with your arrow keys/numpad. If you have one you may as well have the other.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:37
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Bob NewSCART posted:Does tome have a tab autofight hotkey yet? It's so annoying having an auto explore but then having to attack poo poo with your arrow keys/numpad. If you have one you may as well have the other.
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Dec 17, 2013 23:27
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victrix posted:Hah, I hate pets. Actually one of the major reasons I don't like Brogue. Well then, good news! As of version 1.7.3, pets are a short-lived monster distraction/attraction at best, unless you choose to strengthen them at the cost of weaker gear for yourself for some strange reason.
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Dec 18, 2013 00:16
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Glimpse posted:Well then, good news! As of version 1.7.3, pets are a short-lived monster distraction/attraction at best, unless you choose to strengthen them at the cost of weaker gear for yourself for some strange reason. Even though it can cost enchants, a nicely buffed pet can be insanely strong (helps if you can heal it). Don't waste it on early things but any later enemies (troll or stronger imo) are a good choice. You can even recover from negation now. It's not how I prefer to play, but I tried it once with a naga and it was really viable.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:26
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Are there any good Gauntlet style games with roguelike/procedural elements?
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Dec 18, 2013 01:47
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Nethack pining/hand wringing eh? As always, there is the short list folks should keep in mind/look into: PRIME: http://pesky-reticulans.org/ Ongoing successor to ZAPM---which is essentially a Sci-Fi Nethack hopeful with a lot of moxy. Dev pace is lively'ish and going places. Diggr: http://code.google.com/p/diggr-roguelike/ Love letter-homage project unto Nethack with quirks aplenty...rather developed but sleeping due to... Incavead(Infinite Cave Adventure): http://dungeon.name/ The sequel to Diggr and goes off even more into the woods that is a thing unto itself, but the eye remains on the Nethack prize. Online wranglings interposed with single player downloadable doings. Otherwise, eh, as far as just "more, better, faster, stronger, the same still"---latest is Dynahack: http://tung.github.io/DynaHack/ which hasn't seen an update since October but yeah.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:48
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