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Isn't the idea that there were complications in her pregnancy due to emotional distress and Anakin's attack on her, and she could've fought to overcome the damage but she just didn't care? Not like she just willed herself to die out of the blue. Also isn't giving birth to twins more risky?
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Dec 18, 2013 20:25
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Lord Krangdar posted:Isn't the idea that there were complications in her pregnancy due to emotional distress and Anakin's attack on her, and she could've fought to overcome the damage but she just didn't care? Not like she just willed herself to die out of the blue. "Medically, she's completely healthy." --attributed to stupid medical droid, 30 BBY
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Dec 18, 2013 20:32
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RoboticSpaceWizard posted:Well, the other option is that she had no agency in her death (e.g. something killed her). That's unsubstantiated.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:36
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I've heard that at least one EU book tried to claim that the medical droids just screwed up (because they weren't designed to operate on humans, or something) and made up the story about "losing her will to live" to cover their rear end. In any case, presenting a "death by broken heart" out of the blue without any kind of foreshadowing or set up whatsoever is still stupid. And it's not like they didn't have other ways to explain this. They could have just said that injuries from Anakin's force choke caused complications in the birth that led to her death.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:37
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Ave Azaria posted:Then show her killing herself. Don't give her a vague, seemingly-magical, inexplicable death. I apologize if I take the wrong meaning, but I am not George Lucas. INH5 posted:I've heard that at least one EU book tried to claim that the medical droids just screwed up (because they weren't designed to operate on humans, or something) and made up the story about "losing her will to live" to cover their rear end.  That would be the funniest moment in the entire SW, if there was some way to get this in higher canon.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:38
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INH5 posted:I've heard that at least one EU book tried to claim that the medical droids just screwed up (because they weren't designed to operate on humans, or something) and made up the story about "losing her will to live" to cover their rear end. They could have just had her die and not say anything about her broken heart. The imagery of her dying tells the story better than any awful dialog.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:41
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Padme's death and implied rejection of her children (and, you know, the whole rest of the films) can only be read as symbolic. It's a fairytale. The EU stuff will never stop being hilarious though.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:55
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Danger posted:Padme's death and implied rejection of her children (and, you know, the whole rest of the films) can only be read as symbolic. It's a fairytale. The EU stuff will never stop being hilarious though.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:07
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Strange Matter posted:It's clearly a pro-choice abortion message. Faced with the reality of giving birth to the children of a monster (comparable to post-rape/incest childbirth), the mother rejects both them and her own will to live. My husband killed a bunch of children, this makes me so angry I'll have to kill more children to cope. Check.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:09
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Jerk McJerkface posted:They could have just had her die and not say anything about her broken heart. The imagery of her dying tells the story better than any awful dialog. This. Death by childbirth is pretty common in these kinds of stories. Maybe he thought it just seemed a bit much for the kids, except it's in a movie with violent decapitation and war. Also something I think that gets overlooked a lot, World Renowned Playwright and Really Good Writer Guy Tom Stoppard himself did a lot of touch up on the script for Episode 3. He also worked on Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and according to Spielberg is responsible for all of the dialogue in that film, a film with some really good dialogue. I've always been pretty baffled how that worked out. Whatever clever symbolism and story and imagery stuff Lucas is able to do, he's pretty garbage at writing dialogue. He got away with it in New Hope with some meticulous and very fortunate casting. For the prequels he had an equally, if not more, talented cast but somehow all the dialogue comes off super flat. There's some really good acting in the expressions and looks, and a lot of the dialogue is probably ADR'd, but I still can't get how he managed to get so many world class thespians to come across like kids in a school play. But yeah he's poo poo at dialogue + Stoppard, so it's possible the Broken Heart thing was originally some long convoluted explanation and Stoppard tried to boil it down and just didn't go far enough. The movie was also pushing it lengthwise at that point. Maybe there was originally a better explanation but it ended up getting tidied up in a hurry, or maybe he felt Padme deserved a less cliche death than "by childbirth. The possibilities are endless, and stupid, and I think mainly boil down to "Movies almost over but we still gotta kill his character." I tend to think of Episode 3 as the worst prequel because of stuff like that. Episode 1 tries to be a real movie with real movie things, episode 2 has some goofy fun bullshit. 3 starts real strong with a fun space adventure then plots out. It's the film that has the most important events, and all the events are rushed and carry no weight because Lucas is an idea writer and not so much a people writer, or even really a scene writer. He's really just not much of a writer. He's a film man. He likes to point cameras at things, compose shots, create visual stories and he's got a knack for that. His "auteur theory" bullshit or something makes him think he should write the scripts too, but he really really shouldn't. He's like what would happen if George Martin had decided since he was one of the 3 best producers in the world at the time (Alongside Brian Wilson and Phil Spector), that he should not just produce Beatles music, but also write all their songs.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:11
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Thing is, they didn't have to kill Padme. There's that line in RotJ where Leia's describing her mother to Luke as beautiful and sad and dying when Leia was very young. The implication now is that she's remembering the Queen of Alderaan who we see at the end of RotS, but there's really no reason it couldn't have been Padme...except that they decided to kill her off at the end of Sith.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:20
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Robotnik Nudes posted:This. Death by childbirth is pretty common in these kinds of stories. Maybe he thought it just seemed a bit much for the kids, except it's in a movie with violent decapitation and war. Also something I think that gets overlooked a lot, World Renowned Playwright and Really Good Writer Guy Tom Stoppard himself did a lot of touch up on the script for Episode 3. He also worked on Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and according to Spielberg is responsible for all of the dialogue in that film, a film with some really good dialogue. I've always been pretty baffled how that worked out. Whatever clever symbolism and story and imagery stuff Lucas is able to do, he's pretty garbage at writing dialogue. He got away with it in New Hope with some meticulous and very fortunate casting. For the prequels he had an equally, if not more, talented cast but somehow all the dialogue comes off super flat. There's some really good acting in the expressions and looks, and a lot of the dialogue is probably ADR'd, but I still can't get how he managed to get so many world class thespians to come across like kids in a school play. Holy poo poo, never knew about the Tom Stoppard thing. If he had his way would C3PO and R2 be the viewpoint characters with all the major events going on offscreen? I want to see the droids play a game of questions.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:28
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Robotnik Nudes posted:This. Death by childbirth is pretty common in these kinds of stories. Maybe he thought it just seemed a bit much for the kids, except it's in a movie with violent decapitation and war. [...] The possibilities are endless, and stupid, and I think mainly boil down to "Movies almost over but we still gotta kill his character." Good post. Death in childbirth seems too primitive for the SW setting, so I think Lucas blocked that route from day one. quote:He's really just not much of a writer. He's a film man. He likes to point cameras at things, compose shots, create visual stories and he's got a knack for that. His "auteur theory" bullshit or something makes him think he should write the scripts too, but he really really shouldn't. He's like what would happen if George Martin had decided since he was one of the 3 best producers in the world at the time (Alongside Brian Wilson and Phil Spector), that he should not just produce Beatles music, but also write all their songs. Pretty on the nail. The RLM reviews are annoying and nitpicky sometimes, but through them I did become aware of how many boring 1-2 angle walking/sitting shots popped up in Ep. II and III. Lucas' creative muse as a filmmaker seemed pretty tired out, too. Leaving that aside, I have a lot of sympathy for Lucas as an independent voice. I can relate (in a general fashion) to a lot of his gripes in Empire of Dreams - he quit the Director's Guild when they fined him for daring to place credits at the end of Empire Strikes Back (imagine that!). I'm sure there are plenty other examples of awful outside meddling that either I'm forgetting or just unaware of. Nowadays, the party line is that the meddling was mostly beneficial - well, in some cases, yes, but for the most part that interpretation of the creative process is revisionist. Just because the guy phoned it in decades later doesn't mean it's open season on his legit achievements.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:30
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Jerk McJerkface posted:They could have just had her die and not say anything about her broken heart. The imagery of her dying tells the story better than any awful dialog. Just having her die without a reason is better than saying how she died i.e. 'died of a broken heart' i.e. suicide? I thought Lucas was to be criticised for laziness.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:58
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jng2058 posted:Thing is, they didn't have to kill Padme. There's that line in RotJ where Leia's describing her mother to Luke as beautiful and sad and dying when Leia was very young. The implication now is that she's remembering the Queen of Alderaan who we see at the end of RotS, but there's really no reason it couldn't have been Padme...except that they decided to kill her off at the end of Sith. This would fail to complete Padme's arc, though. edit: And Anakin's
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Dec 18, 2013 21:59
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sassassin posted:Just having her die without a reason is better than saying how she died i.e. 'died of a broken heart' i.e. suicide? Sometimes less is more.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:02
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This is making the rounds on facebook right now, not sure how valid it is.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:09
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Throwdown posted:This is making the rounds on facebook right now, not sure how valid it is. Looks fake as hell. edit: The planet and bankground are grainy, and why start off with a shot of a wrecked SD? Wouldn't the tease be the Empire coming back, not getting their rear end kicked even worse?
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Dec 18, 2013 22:12
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Last I heard, the screenplay isn't going to be finished for another month. There's no way they would be making posters at this stage.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:15
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Has there been any official statements about how the new movies will deal with all the EU stuff that's been officially cannon for like 15 years? I'm totally fine with them completely ignoring all that, just wondering if I should be expecting a Thrawn appearance or not.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:21
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Yeah, figured as much.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:22
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Her death during childbirth is also a hint to fans, a way to reaffirm the radical message of the original films by retroactively asserting the hero and heroine of the originals as a repetition that has produced a radical difference: while Luke and Leia share basic archetypes with their imagined past lives (The Princess, The Black Knight, the legendary sword, the taboo love) the virtual environment in which they repeat has shifted, creating a radical difference. While Padme and Anakin were in service to the stagnating process of liberal democracy, here they exist as revolutionaries fighting waging guerrilla war in the opposite direction. You can see this in the alterations of the original trilogies as well, highlighting the virtual shift.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:35
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Is this the RLM thing people often refer to in this thread? http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/ I'm trying to watch it but I need to know, does the reviewer talk like he has gobs of his own chin fat keeping his mouth from opening the entire time? Is it a shtick? It's brutal to try and listen to and I'm amazed anyone has even watched the whole thing let alone take anything he says seriously.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:06
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Kly posted:Is this the RLM thing people often refer to in this thread? It's a schtick, he talks in his normal voice in most RLM stuff nowadays and another guy does Plinkett in live-action.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:10
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Its schtick and I think it also unfairly criticizes the movies by approaching them from an angle that they were supposed to be "good movies", which they plainly were not meant to be. Nevertheless, even though I think the assumption they were supposed to be "good movies" is wrong, they are entertaining.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:11
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It's a shtick, yes, "Mr. Plinkett" is a character.Throwdown posted:This is making the rounds on facebook right now, not sure how valid it is. The dimensions on the ship relative to the break are pretty hosed, so even if Disney was nuts enough to be putting out posters this early I don't think they'd let a mistake that amateurish slip by.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:13
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RLM's normal stuff, like Best of the Worst, is much funnier and alerted me to the existence of Thunderpants.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:14
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The best part of Padme and her kids is that after she dies, Obi-Wan and Bail Organa basically flip a coin to determine which of the children will live as opulent royalty and which one will be a waterdrop farmer on the Dry Shithole Planet.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:39
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tin can made man posted:The best part of Padme and her kids is that after she dies, Obi-Wan and Bail Organa basically flip a coin to determine which of the children will live as opulent royalty and which one will be a waterdrop farmer on the Dry Shithole Planet. This is another thing. Bail "baby snatcher" Organa was pretty drat quick to take Leia. It would have been so much better if Padme didn't have a family, and we got glimpses of a brother/sister relationship from the two. Then it'd make sense for Bail to volunteer. Not just because they couldn't have a kid of their own and saw an opportunity.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:52
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It'd have been nice if Bail had more than a bit part in the prequels. Not just to understand who ended up raising Leia, but possibly to offer a perspective from a bit outside all the Jedi Order business.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:58
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People complaining that Padme's death makes no logical sense miss the point entirely. Lucas specifically includes the robot doctor to tell the audience that it makes no logical sense. It's deliberate. The beep-boop robot can't compute what happened - attributing it to a loss of will to live. The keywords 'will' and 'life' should clue you in here. The robot is talking about the force. Padme's death is actually the purest expression of what the force is in the entire PT. It's characterized here by its sheer absence. Everything is scientifically normal, and yet something intangible is missing... Note that the robot does not say "her midichlorian count is dropping rapidly!" or some nonsense like that. She has been cut off from the force in a way that Jedi blood scanners cannot measure. This, perhaps, explains the 'continuity error' that no-one in the OT believes in the force. Because the Jedi simply treated it as a biological mechanism, no-one actually believed. Padme's last act can almost be read as defiance to all this, literally defying logic. It's no accident that this act is simultaneous with the birth of Luke and Leia.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:11
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Its a known fact that the force is located in the placenta
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Dec 19, 2013 00:17
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Struggling with the pain of a half crushed larynx, having been split from her v to her a, and worst of all suddenly being white trash, Padme reached over and flicked the morphine switch until it all went away. This is canon.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:28
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It's too bad that Lucas' then wife edited all this subversive intent out of A New Hope and turned it into an enjoyable film on all levels as opposed to the Battle of the Whills that mocked the assumption of enjoying pulp fantasy.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:00
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Darko posted:It's too bad that Lucas' then wife edited all this subversive intent out of A New Hope and turned it into an enjoyable film on all levels as opposed to the Battle of the Whills that mocked the assumption of enjoying pulp fantasy. Was she really that important? I mean, this is her entire article at Wookieepedia: quote:Marcia Lucas (née Griffin) is an American film editor. She met George Lucas when Verna Fields hired her to work as an assistant editor to George while editing US Information Agency documentaries, and they were married between 1969 and 1983. They adopted one daughter, Amanda, who was born in 1981. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marcia_Lucas
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Dec 19, 2013 01:05
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The Monkey Man posted:Was she really that important? I mean, this is her entire article at Wookieepedia: She was one of three editors on a New Hope and Return of the Jedi, but didn't edit Empire. Ben Burtt was the lead sound designer for all six movies and the editor for the entire prequel trilogy and nobody talks about him saving or destroying movies.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:11
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The Monkey Man posted:Was she really that important? I mean, this is her entire article at Wookieepedia: She didn't just work with him in editing the films, but also in the scripts. His earliest scripts read completely un-cinematic, and middle scripts read verrry similar to the prequels. The mix of a much tighter script and film have a lot to do with the people that helped him cut it. Otherwise, as stated, A New Hope is almost exactly like the prequels in feel, at least from reading.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:19
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The Monkey Man posted:Was she really that important? I mean, this is her entire article at Wookieepedia: Well, probably the only significant piece you can easily find on her is probably this unauthorized/counter-history: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/marcialucas.html Also, you'd want to keep in mind who's writing and maintaining Wookieepedia (cf. the article on "Breasts")
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Dec 19, 2013 01:22
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Darko posted:She didn't just work with him in editing the films, but also in the scripts. His earliest scripts read completely un-cinematic, and middle scripts read verrry similar to the prequels. The mix of a much tighter script and film have a lot to do with the people that helped him cut it. Otherwise, as stated, A New Hope is almost exactly like the prequels in feel, at least from reading. The early ones were also said to be highly derivative of Dune with even more of the story taking place on Tatooine and much of the plot surrounding spice mining. In turn, when Lynch was making the film version of Dune, he found it difficult to make it seem like it wasn't derivative of Star Wars.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:32
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Corek posted:She was one of three editors on a New Hope and Return of the Jedi, but didn't edit Empire. Ben Burtt was the lead sound designer for all six movies and the editor for the entire prequel trilogy and nobody talks about him saving or destroying movies. I didn't know that. Cool guy. Lots of people worked on the Star Wars movies, and I'm kind of glad people dispute Lucas as the creator. Not because I hate Lucas, it's just cool seeing a series where more than one guy gets all the thanks. Star Wars is composed of so many people's ideas from the past compressed together and filtered in interesting ways and produced by even more people working with each other to create the effects and characters that it's more than one man's simple vision could ever be. SMG and sasssassin, what did you guys think of John Carter OF MARS?
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Dec 19, 2013 01:57
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