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The way I see it is that Roy has grown as well. Not in that he is uncaring. We saw how he about straight up killed Belkar when he thinks its some sick joke. Probably a mixture of emotional fatique and the fact that they already had a fuckload on their plate. Durkon isn't attacking, he appears to be helpful, and frankly they need a cleric. Sort of a " Christ, I will deal with this later"
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Dec 18, 2013 19:01
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The way Roy talks about Vampire Durkon as "We'll need to keep track of his body if we're going to bring him back to life" makes it seem obvious that Durkon may not take kindly to the prospect of being staked and resurrected, given how Malack reacted when Durkon made the same offer to him.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:47
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Well don't tell him that's the plan of course.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:50
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greatn posted:Well don't tell him that's the plan of course. Then wonder why he's not accepting the Resurrection from the other Cleric or scroll they'd try to use on him. And their sudden downshift in alignment for deceiving a friend that badly, even if he had become a monster.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:56
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Regalingualius posted:Then wonder why he's not accepting the Resurrection from the other Cleric or scroll they'd try to use on him. And their sudden downshift in alignment for deceiving a friend that badly, even if he had become a monster. You're loving kidding.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:43
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I think the "good" version would be the one that gets to decide whether or not to be resurrected, but that's an interesting point, I only think that, I don't know if that's actually outlined anywhere. As for alignment change for deceiving a vampire friend to bring him back to life, cry me a river DM. "Oh no my alignment based class powers! Oh wait I never had any"
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Dec 18, 2013 20:44
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greatn posted:I think the "good" version would be the one that gets to decide whether or not to be resurrected, but that's an interesting point, I only think that, I don't know if that's actually outlined anywhere. Yeah, I do remember it being said somewhere that non-necromantic spells to bring back the dead (outside of Speak With Dead, I guess) require their spirit's consent, and let them know the alignment of whoever's trying to bring them back. Hell, we even have precedent for that latter bit from when the Order couldn't raise any of Girard's family because Durkon registered the same as the hated Azure City Paladins. And while it might not affect their skills, it still does have more than enough potential to bite them in the rear end later on (I.E. running into Hinjo and co. at a really inopportune time). And that's not even touching on any existential fears they'd have about where they'd end up when they really do die for real.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:05
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Oh yeah, Hinjo will be all "You killed a vampire without warning it? Have at you!"
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Dec 18, 2013 21:27
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Pretty sure the order just showed what happens when a high level adventuring party fights against a bunch of mooks and one fighter ( I guess a paladin in this case). Hinjo isn't a threat for anything but hurt feelings.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:31
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It's been well established by now that vampires, when raised, aren't really the guy they look like; you're not 'lying to a friend' when you neglect to tell the strange creature constructed from his corpse you plan to resurrect the original resident, even if that creature kind of walks and talks like the guy you knew.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:36
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Johnny Aztec posted:The way I see it is that Roy has grown as well. Not in that he is uncaring. We saw how he about straight up killed Belkar when he thinks its some sick joke. I understand that. And that is the most logical decision for the team at this time. But I want the tarquin threat to be over. While I like tarquin as a villain, he has had more depth and screen time that purely focuses on him then durkon has the whole comic. I want to know about our hero that has been with the team for almost a decade and has just died and because an undead horror. Tarquin is going to die, it is just a matter of how. I don't know where durkon story is going. Though I would bet he stays a vampire forever.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:37
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greatn posted:Oh yeah, Hinjo will be all "You killed a vampire without warning it? Have at you!" I was honestly thinking more along the lines of Hinjo or one of his subordinates seeing non-Belkar members of the OotS register as Evil, and breaking up their alliance then and there (if not outright attack them).
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Dec 18, 2013 21:38
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Regalingualius posted:I was honestly thinking more along the lines of Hinjo or one of his subordinates seeing non-Belkar members of the OotS register as Evil, and breaking up their alliance then and there (if not outright attack them). I can see Durkon being a point of contention, but the Sapphire Guard is by no means comprised of Miko clones.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:43
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Hinjo doesn't matter. He's leading the Azure Refugees on an island somewhere. The Order won't be going there. What matters is O-Chul and Lien. They were sent to guard Kraagor's Gate and will be there when the Order arrives. And that's when things will get interesting.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:45
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Regalingualius posted:I was honestly thinking more along the lines of Hinjo or one of his subordinates seeing non-Belkar members of the OotS register as Evil, and breaking up their alliance then and there (if not outright attack them). Wasn't the entire Azure City arc written to take the piss out of the idea of paladins who just auto-smite everyone who sets off detect evil?
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Dec 18, 2013 21:45
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ConfusedUs posted:I can see Durkon being a point of contention, but the Sapphire Guard is by no means comprised of Miko clones. Indeed darkon might be a vampire, but he is still a sentient lawful creature that doesn't consent to being murder. It would be hard for me to justify murder someone just because their label read as evil, but they had yet to break any laws.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:47
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It's a vampire. It doesn't have a choice to be moral.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:50
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Vampires are illegal.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:50
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You can't murder a vampire. They're not alive.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:51
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Sir Kodiak posted:You can't murder a vampire. They're not alive. That I've got to disagree with- in a world where vital signs aren't a prerequisite for sentience, you've got to extend the definition of murder to something like "unlawfully terminate the existence of a sentient being".
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Dec 18, 2013 21:53
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jng2058 posted:Hinjo doesn't matter. He's leading the Azure Refugees on an island somewhere. The Order won't be going there. What matters is O-Chul and Lien. They were sent to guard Kraagor's Gate and will be there when the Order arrives. I imagine they won't be happy, but they won't attack him.... Unless whatever death and destruction darkon bring turns the whole team against him. That would be a fun fight scene. Darkon is the toughest team member right now. He can dominate Belkar and probably Elan easily. He can summon a decently strong demon. Make vampire thralls quickly. Edit: it's illegal to be a vampire? That is some racist poo poo right there.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:53
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Pope Guilty posted:That I've got to disagree with- in a world where vital signs aren't a prerequisite for sentience, you've got to extend the definition of murder to something like "unlawfully terminate the existence of a sentient being". This is also a world that has an objective concept of "undead."
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Dec 18, 2013 21:54
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Pope Guilty posted:That I've got to disagree with- in a world where vital signs aren't a prerequisite for sentience, you've got to extend the definition of murder to something like "unlawfully terminate the existence of a sentient being". That'd be unteneble as gently caress given that Demons and Devils are sentient. You can't write laws that put the physical manifestations of the concept of evil on equal footing with everyone else. Maybe in some kind of neutral planar city or something, but not in your run of the mill mortal kingdom.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:02
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I said "unlawful". The existence of vampires and demons can totally be against the law.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:06
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Being a vampire is illegal, sure, but it's just a civil law. They usually just pay a fine.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:50
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greatn posted:Being a vampire is illegal, sure, but it's just a civil law. They usually just pay a fine. And there's some discriminatory bullshit whenever they move. "Hello, I am Count Dracul Von Strashenburg Willheim Varick, and I am a vampire. I have a history of spreading my undead curse, and as such am required to inform everyone within two hundred yards of my new home, the household of weeping roses."
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Dec 18, 2013 22:52
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Pope Guilty posted:That I've got to disagree with- in a world where vital signs aren't a prerequisite for sentience, you've got to extend the definition of murder to something like "unlawfully terminate the existence of a sentient being". Are they sentient, though? Or are they just evil energy creating the impression of sentience in order to better manipulate people? Anyways, dogs are sentient (they experience pain and pleasure), and you can't "murder" them. Some societies might grant the undead personhood, but I don't think you can take it for a given, particularly not for a society run by paladins.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:57
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Sir Kodiak posted:Are they sentient, though? Or are they just evil energy creating the impression of sentience in order to better manipulate people? Anyways, dogs are sentient (they experience pain and pleasure), and you can't "murder" them. Some societies might grant the undead personhood, but I don't think you can take it for a given, particularly not for a society run by paladins. Yeah but what is a man but a miserable pile of secrets
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Dec 18, 2013 23:02
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Mystic Mongol posted:And there's some discriminatory bullshit whenever they move. "Hello, I am Count Dracul Von Strashenburg Willheim Varick, and I am a vampire. I have a history of spreading my undead curse, and as such am required to inform everyone within two hundred yards of my new home, the household of weeping roses." I'm stealing this idea for things.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:09
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Shwqa posted:Yeah but what is a man but a miserable pile of secrets Durkula's son Alukrud will learn this lesson well.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:Are they sentient, though? Or are they just evil energy creating the impression of sentience in order to better manipulate people? Anyways, dogs are sentient (they experience pain and pleasure), and you can't "murder" them. Some societies might grant the undead personhood, but I don't think you can take it for a given, particularly not for a society run by paladins. Sentient, sapient, conscious, whatever word you want to use rather than splitting hairs.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:16
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Pope Guilty posted:Sentient, sapient, conscious, whatever word you want to use rather than splitting hairs. It is a valid point, specifically in the context of Tsukiko's Wights. Also sentience and sapience are two related-but-not-actually-the-same things, as "sentient" is defined as "able to experience things" and "sapient" is defined as "able to act with judgement", aka wisdom. So in this context, it's not exactly splitting hairs.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:38
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Heatwizard posted:Wasn't the entire Azure City arc written to take the piss out of the idea of paladins who just auto-smite everyone who sets off detect evil? Morally, alive Durkon was basically the same as a highly compromising paladin. There is no loving way an actual paladin will tolerate a trusted colleague and friend becoming a vampire more than Durkon did Malack. If the Order doesn't make an effort to hide Durkon's condition, it will lose them at least their paladin allies, if not straight up make them their enemies.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:58
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Ursine Asylum posted:It is a valid point, specifically in the context of Tsukiko's Wights. Also sentience and sapience are two related-but-not-actually-the-same things, as "sentient" is defined as "able to experience things" and "sapient" is defined as "able to act with judgement", aka wisdom. So in this context, it's not exactly splitting hairs. I can't believe that strip was three hundred pages of this thread ago.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:23
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Kajeesus posted:Morally, alive Durkon was basically the same as a highly compromising paladin. There is no loving way an actual paladin will tolerate a trusted colleague and friend becoming a vampire more than Durkon did Malack. If the Order doesn't make an effort to hide Durkon's condition, it will lose them at least their paladin allies, if not straight up make them their enemies. Malack was trying to kill a teammate, and Durkula is more willing to play nice. I'll be surprised if book 6 is held up with a subplot about a crippling inability for side characters to keep their priorities straight re: preventing deicide, just because they saw a spooky ghost, especially after chapter 5 ending with a side character constantly insisting the order put their priorities aside is causing so much restlessness with the readers already.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:20
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Ursine Asylum posted:It is a valid point, specifically in the context of Tsukiko's Wights. Also sentience and sapience are two related-but-not-actually-the-same things, as "sentient" is defined as "able to experience things" and "sapient" is defined as "able to act with judgement", aka wisdom. So in this context, it's not exactly splitting hairs. Well Wights are free willed as long as if their controller or creator dies. (Sadly they are abominations that hate life so them being free from their controller means they will still attack you.) It's why when a Necromancer creates his first Wight he better be sure to keep that one safe because if it dies he will lose control of all the ones it created.
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Dec 19, 2013 03:09
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greatn posted:Being a vampire is illegal, sure, but it's just a civil law. They usually just pay a fine. Plus they only roll d12s for Diplomacy checks involving civic authorities. Anyone else see Durkula bursting through the deck to attack Laurin mid-caster fight while Roy runs up and fights Tarquin?
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Dec 19, 2013 03:46
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Kajeesus posted:Morally, alive Durkon was basically the same as a highly compromising paladin. There is no loving way an actual paladin will tolerate a trusted colleague and friend becoming a vampire more than Durkon did Malack. If the Order doesn't make an effort to hide Durkon's condition, it will lose them at least their paladin allies, if not straight up make them their enemies. As I understand it and as implied by Rich I think its possible that Durkon would have allowed the vampirism to slide if Malack had visibly gone out of his way to have minimized the impact of his condition on innocent people (or cast restoration each time), and probable if Malack would've made a convenient ally. For example if he'd learned while drinking tea with him I don't think Durkon would've attacked out of hand. At the very least the Sapphire Guard will swallow the excuse of needing to wait until a good moment to cast Resurrection. e: quote:Edit: it's illegal to be a vampire? That is some racist poo poo right there. Yes, it would be bigotry to generalized anyone as automatically evil based on well, generalizations; Durkon just happened to have sufficient probable cause that Malack was both de jure and de facto evil. e2: quote:Don't some of the people who dislike 4th Ed complain that 4th Ed's Encounter / Daily system amounts to giving Fighters "magic"? Objectively it makes the two classes mechanically similar (providing simpler rules and a more gradual learning curve), while 3rd/5th edition had them sharing some base mechanics but diverging sharply. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 05:13
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Illuyankas posted:Anyone else see Durkula bursting through the deck to attack Laurin mid-caster fight while Roy runs up and fights Tarquin?
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Dec 19, 2013 05:33
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FMguru posted:No, but Julio Scoundrel is still getting winched up and needs to be accounted for. I dunno, so far his plan seems to be unraveling.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:41
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