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Nobody wins when nerds argue about attribute point systems. Just go with the original plan.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:49
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: I am not an AD&D player and my only exposure to these systems is through video games. The ones I would expect to affect damage I bolded and indicated why in italics, in this part I've also indicated whether or not I would assume it also affected healing. I would also be fine with stats affecting both damage and healing. Io_ fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 19:49
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I don't think there's anything wrong with Intellect affecting all damage, but if it were up to me I'd basically name every stat exactly what it did: Power, Resistance, Health, Stamina, etc.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:49
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: As for your second question: both Might and Power make sense for melee weapons. Having them affect healing and spells would seem transiently weird but I can kind of get behind it (wow, what a mighty/powerful healing spell!). Guns and wands would feel a little weirder (since it feels like it ought not to matter how mightily you pull the trigger or how powerfully you wave a wand, since neither guns nor wands rely more than trivially on musclepower or brainpower to work, at least in my mind). Having said all that, ultimately, I probably wouldn't care all that much about the precise name of each stat as long as it was explained in the character creation screen (or somewhere equally obvious) what each stat did. quote:Nobody wins when nerds argue about attribute point systems. Just go with the original plan.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:50
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It wouldn't solve all the issues, but if they were to rename strength to endurance (the ability to endure long-term damage and carry more items) there would be no obvious-sounding damage stat and players would be forced to read all the descriptions to find out which one it is.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:57
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Might and Power here, too. It's what Lord of the Rings Online does, by the way, and it always seemed obvious and classy, when I played that game.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:58
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: quote:Based on that answer, if you discovered that stat affected all damage and healing, including damage and healing from sources like guns and wands and bows and fireball spells, how would you feel about it?
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Dec 19, 2013 19:58
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"Puissance" is the best name for the strength/power stat. Seriously. Just roll it around your tongue. Puissance. Mm.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:58
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rope kid posted:What would you assume the stat that affects damage would be? Based on that answer, if you discovered that stat affected all damage and healing, including damage and healing from sources like guns and wands and bows and fireball spells, how would you feel about it? I'd assume - Might/Power = melee/ranged weapon damage Intellect = spell damage Constitution = max HP and possibly passive healing over time I'd be perfectly fine with Power = all damage. Might still reads to me like a melee/ranged (not spell) damage stat. Airfoil fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 19:59
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rope kid posted:What would you assume the stat that affects damage would be? Based on that answer, if you discovered that stat affected all damage and healing, including damage and healing from sources like guns and wands and bows and fireball spells, how would you feel about it? "Power" probably connotates magnitude with all things a bit more than "Might" but in a vacuum I think "Might" would work just as well. Difference being that people have probably heard "magical power" more than "magical might." I think it works fine for damage and healing for all of the above except I think conventional thinking would say that the damage magnitude of gun's would have to come from targetting. So that implies some combination of intellect and dexterity. Everything else could be reasoned as some internal soul-power/literal strength that draws from the same "power" well. Super No Vacancy fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:05
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I don't see any of these proposed stats forming the acronym S.P.I.D.E.R. 
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Dec 19, 2013 20:08
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There are lots of names that are good for affecting all damage, but having it affect all damage and healing is what makes me quirk an eyebrow like Spock. Add in damage from guns and wands too, and I like 'Resolve' more and more. I'm resolved to hew your limbs off. I'm resolved to get a headshot. I'm resolved to heal your wounds. It works. Power as a distant second. Might is too 'physical'.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:08
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Actually it's not very lore-y but if you really wanted to spell it out for people, "Magnitude" wouldn't be a terrible option.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:12
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Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc. Que sera, sera though. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:14
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: I could totally see Power or Might both being the "make numbers bigger" stat, but I like the "health and tool-belt capacity" nature of Strength right now. I just don't know what to call it without bringing in baggage. Enterprise? Resourcefulness? Robusticity? Backbone? Bottom line, as I've said before and Fintilgin says above Fintilgin posted:I'm resolved to hew your limbs off. I'm resolved to get a headshot. I'm resolved to heal your wounds.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:15
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: I'd assume might/power would be the damage parts of the system. I'd feel weird that it'd control both damage and healing. (I'd feel that using Intellect for damage is less intuitive, but I'd be fine, and it'd feel fine if it controlled healing)
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Dec 19, 2013 20:16
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uaciaut posted:Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc. That adds unnecessary complication to the mechanics to settle a very minor intuition issue. Not worth it.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:20
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: However, Mozi posted:Nobody wins when nerds argue about attribute point systems. Just go with the original plan.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:20
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a slim pixie posted:It wouldn't solve all the issues, but if they were to rename strength to endurance (the ability to endure long-term damage and carry more items) there would be no obvious-sounding damage stat and players would be forced to read all the descriptions to find out which one it is.  " spergery. On the other hand, not having something that tells me how physically strong my character is while I have stats of how quick-thinking/seeing I am, how quick-thinking/knowledgeable I am, andabout how quick-moving/nimble I am is a little strange to me. If you had to, I'd have strength do what it does now under the proposed system, then have a stat that only affects damage/healing in all forms. Resolve would be the best choice in my opinion, or something named to represent the soul power of the person or something. uaciaut posted:Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:22
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One cool feature that could ameliorate a lot of this would be to have a little textbox next to your character stats as you make it which roughly describes the type of character you are making so that you can work out if those are the gameplay effects you want. So if you make your hypothetical incredibly stupid warrior it notes that they are not clever enough to learn the finer points of combat, struggle with the basic logic behind footwork and positioning, and so on. Maybe even make it more explicitly mechanical (this character is too limited to know more than one combat style, or whatever). I love anything that connects numbers to semantics.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:24
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Male Man posted:That adds unnecessary complication to the mechanics to settle a very minor intuition issue. Not worth it. I disagree, i think having stat govern both damage and healing done entirely will create more balance issues since you have to more or less work around it. And i don't care how complicated the mechanics are, i care about how well they work to create a solid, fairly balanced gameplay. Then again i do enjoy working with mechanics and doing math and poo poo so it might just be a personal prefference. To each their own i guess.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:24
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uaciaut posted:Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:25
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Furism posted:Might and Power here, too. Lord of the Rings Online did some loving awesome poo poo with renaming things that are usually called something else. Making the traditional "hitpoints" Morale was brilliant, because that way they could get the gameplay of a healer into a universe where there aren't dozens of people running that can magically close the gravest of wounds. If anything that should serve as an example that it's perfectly fine to rename to things that are traditionally called something else. People get over it. They get used to it quickly. uaciaut posted:Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc. Because that's complicated as hell for no benefit other than "my verisimilitude". Splitting stats also hurts hybrid characters. Both ranged/melee, phsyical/caster and damage/healing hybrids are going to exist in Pillars of Eternity, and they'll be significantly worse if damage and healing, ranged and melee or physical and magical attributes are split up - for no benefit. It would also significantly decrease viable build numbers and it seems like one of the goals is to make every kind of character useful with every class. You're supposed to be able to have a Smart Person, a Quick Person, a Strong Person, a Tough Person, a Resolute Person - and each of them can be any class and function. Strong Wizard, Tough Wizard, Smart Wizard - they should all be viable, and the system as described does that. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:27
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Might/Power over here too. And when I found out they did everything, I'd probably switch to resolve in the first set, but keep power in the second. Guns are a weird one though, it almost feels like they shouldn't scale with anything. Your gun shoots has hard as it does whatever you do. And as we've already ascertained they're pretty inaccurate, scaling with perception doesn't even make sense. You can be the best at spotting targets on a target in the world, but if your gun doesn't shoot straight, best of luck hitting them in the face if that's where you're aiming.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:29
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You know what? Call the skills anything you want. The biggest hope of this random guy on the internet is that there is minimal overlap between things the player upgrades that affect a character's capabilities in combat and upgrades that affect capabilities out of it. A stat that affects a Paladin's DPS capability shouldn't necessarily also affect his ability to influence people in dialog trees, because these areas are two different areas in a video game and while it's good for the paladin and makes sense in a strict trope sense, it kind of locks out every other class from being an "influential" character, which is the opposite of what you want for an actual Role Playing Game, right? I'd love to be able to make characters like zealot rear end in a top hat lawful evil Paladins or charismatic, chaotic good necromancers or lawful good rogues or whatever else like that. I guess in my mind the best solution would be to dole out experience rewards for "combat" and "personality" points, with no overlap between the two systems. But that's probably not going to happen because this is an Infinity Engine-like game, not a new blank slate IP. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:30
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: In the first option I'd assume might for melee, dex for ranged, int for magic dmg, resolve for healing. The second option would be a lot more confusing as to me power refers to stuff like mana, etc. After the initial confusion though I'd basically guess the same as in the first option. If I discovered that one stat affected everyone's damage/healing output I wouldn't really like it at all. I enjoy the image of stupid but incredibly strong frontline fighter, smart but physically not so strong wizard, strong willed clerics, etc. I don't really roleplay my characters much, but one of the few things where I do do it is character building. It something where I want the correlations to immediately mase sense to me, and eg. my giant sledgehammer wielding frontliner needing int to increase his damage output wouldn't make sense to me.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:30
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In D&D, there already is a single damage stat for a lot of melee classes: Strength. Con and Dex are valuable enough for most fighters that not everyone builds max-Str fighters with dumped Con and Dex. The problem isn't that Strength is the only stat that affects damage for those classes, it's that the other stats don't affect enough meaningful things for those classes to make them attractive alternatives.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:30
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Mozi posted:Nobody wins when nerds argue about attribute point systems. Just go with the original plan. This is an awesome post.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:34
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rope kid posted:In D&D, there already is a single damage stat for a lot of melee classes: Strength. Con and Dex are valuable enough for most fighters that not everyone builds max-Str fighters with dumped Con and Dex. The problem isn't that Strength is the only stat that affects damage for those classes, it's that the other stats don't affect enough meaningful things for those classes to make them attractive alternatives. *cough* The problem is the existence of stats. *cough*
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Dec 19, 2013 20:34
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GreatGreen posted:You know what? Call the skills anything you want. The biggest hope of this random guy on the internet is that there is minimal overlap between things the player upgrades that affect a character's capabilities in combat and upgrades that affect capabilities out of it. A stat that affects a Paladin's DPS capability shouldn't necessarily also affect his ability to influence people in dialog trees, because these areas are two different areas in a video game and while it's good for the paladin and makes sense in a strict trope sense, it kind of locks out every other class from being an "influential" character, which is the opposite of what you want for an actual Role Playing Game, right? The beauty of the system as described is that there is no Paladin DPS stat. You can in-fact have a Paladin that is exactly what you want him to be in terms of dialogue, and he'll still be effective in combat, but distinct from a Paladin someone else built to do something else in dialogues. The system is different from DnD in that it doesn't force stats on classes. A wizard doesn't have to be smart, and a Paladin doesn't have to be charismatic. What it does do, is lock a certain combat advantage to certain kinds of characters. All smart people will heal better and hit harder, and all tough people will be able to take more hits. But that's not that different to DnD, since intimidating characters were more intimidating if they were strong and vice versa, etc. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:35
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The more information the game gives you back about its expectations of the capability of the character you have constructed based on the stats the easier it is for the player to build a character which they want to play. You are attempting to coax the game system into giving you a character that has the properties you want. And the more reactive the game is to that concept the more fun! I think.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:38
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Megazver posted:*cough* The problem is the existence of stats. *cough*
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Dec 19, 2013 20:42
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rope kid posted:This game will have ability scores and classes. Yeah, I know man. I know. But your post was about D&D.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:46
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Zilkin posted:If I discovered that one stat affected everyone's damage/healing output I wouldn't really like it at all. I enjoy the image of stupid but incredibly strong frontline fighter, smart but physically not so strong wizard, strong willed clerics, etc. I don't really roleplay my characters much, but one of the few things where I do do it is character building. It something where I want the correlations to immediately mase sense to me, and eg. my giant sledgehammer wielding frontliner needing int to increase his damage output wouldn't make sense to me. If that means there's one stat (called expertise or puissance or resolve or whatever) I don't care, but I want to be able to make a fighter that isn't strong without having him suck. I want to see a benefit for a wizard that isn't a rickety consumptive wreck who struggles to turn the pages of his book because they're so heavy, even if it means he spent so much time studying he's got more powerful spells. I want a rogue that isn't that good with a knife, but by god does he have every single drat poison available and he knows how and when to use them. I don't really care how that system comes out, but I want it. I think having intellect be the damage stat triggers some "hey, what the hell?" aspects, but that's fine and I'll live with it. Having a gently caress-off hammer is going to do more damage than a dagger, all other things being equal, and if that hammer requires more strength to use, there you go: there's your damage benefit from strength. edit: The more I think about it, the more damage should be tied to a soul-related stat. You've got the soul mechanic, most of the characters are in some way soul-related in their power, and those that aren't can just be said to be subtly using their soul strength to improve their physicality in some way without actually improving their muscles directly. It makes sense with the physical damage, it makes sense with the spell damage, it makes sense with ranged weapons, and it makes sense that the same stat governs healing strength and smashy skills if it isn't something real or tangible in the world. If that doesn't work with the lore, well, drat, but that's what makes the most intuitive sense to me.. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:49
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rope kid posted:There's really nothing easy or simple about it. It becomes increasingly complex the more things you add to each stat and the more you intentionally branch off subtypes of weapons, damage, etc. True but outside of each class getting their damage from their own governing attribute (i.e. monks resolve, fighter type str, cyphers and casters int), which would still create a lot of balance problems and complications, i see no way around it. I definitely understand that a more transparent, intuitive system is the ideal thing here since it makes it more accessible to more people and generates fewer complications. Main thing i can say about is i'm sure glad i ain't in your shoes durrrrrr. Good luck with sorting things out though!
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Dec 19, 2013 20:51
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rope kid posted:A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this: Might and Power, though to me might carries a teensy bit more physical connotation than power does, and guns with either feels a bit off. Nothing I can't rationalize away, though (THEY'RE SOUL BULLETS OKAY).
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Dec 19, 2013 20:52
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verybad posted:Might and Power, though to me might carries a teensy bit more physical connotation than power does, and guns with either feels a bit off. Nothing I can't rationalize away, though (THEY'RE SOUL BULLETS OKAY). verybad's SOUL BULLET crits ORC for 37 points of emotional damage ORC reconsiders life choices and regrets the path not taken +500xp
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Dec 19, 2013 20:54
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OK if we're really gonna get bogged down in what each of these connotate I may as well go whole-hog. Currently Strength - Health, number of inventory slots, Fortitude saves Constitution - Stamina, Fortitude saves Dexterity - Accuracy, Reflex saves Intellect - Damage and Healing, Willpower saves Perception - Critical Damage, Reflex saves Resolve - Durations, AoE sizes, Willpower saves "Logically" - based on "realism" and not D&D so much since I only ever played BG Strength - melee physical magnitude, bow magnitude, attack speed, number of inventory slots Constitution - health, stamina Dexterity - ranged physical magnitude, accuracy, attack speed Intellect - magical damage, ranged physical magnitude, critical physical damage, healing Perception - I don't know, threat detection? a lot of potential overlap with intellect re "targetting" for magnitude/crits Resolve - stamina, durations, AoE sizes, increased efficacy at low health I would suggest something like this for the breakdown as it stands if you really wanted to shake off people's hang-ups from other games: Ideally Fortitude - Health, number of inventory slots, Fortitude saves Stamina - Stamina, Fortitude saves Accuracy - Accuracy, Reflex saves Power - Damage and Healing, Willpower saves Foresight - Critical Damage, Reflex saves Resolve - Durations, AoE sizes, Willpower saves
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Dec 19, 2013 20:59
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SurrealityCheck posted:verybad's SOUL BULLET crits ORC for 37 points of emotional damage
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Dec 19, 2013 21:02
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uaciaut posted:True but outside of each class getting their damage from their own governing attribute (i.e. monks resolve, fighter type str, cyphers and casters int), which would still create a lot of balance problems and complications, i see no way around it.
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Dec 19, 2013 21:02
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