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Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

Disco Infiva posted:

If I remember correctly, guns in PoE are powerful and good against wizard's arcane veil, but inaccurate and slow.

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. The problem with this model is that if the only reason to keep a gun around is because it is a Wizard-Killing Dynamo, it's essentially an inventory tax, just like needing to keep otherwise inferior silver weapons around in case of Surprise Werewolves, which is kind of a waste of a gameplay mechanic.

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Drakyn
Dec 26, 2012

Yeah, any specific unique features aside, all weapons should be able to function as weapons, not just 'piece of crap used to overcome gameplay mechanic.'

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012
I'm pretty sure el rope kiderino is on board the idea of guns being actually useful as primary weapons.

I think the concept is that each weapon type will have a few situations in which it's better than the others - but the others are nonetheless not useless in that situation, and have their own strengths. And wizards are the gun-specific domain of strength.

DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."

CaptainPsyko posted:

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. The problem with this model is that if the only reason to keep a gun around is because it is a Wizard-Killing Dynamo, it's essentially an inventory tax, just like needing to keep otherwise inferior silver weapons around in case of Surprise Werewolves, which is kind of a waste of a gameplay mechanic.

Actually the unlimited out-of-combat-stash and limited-in-combat-inventory is exactly the kind of environment where niche weapons are a good gameplay mechanic. When there is no out-of-combat inventory tax, having to decide between bringing the mage-killer gun or the silver anti-undead sword is awesome - especially when an inventory focused (Strength) Character doesn't have to choose in exchange for missing out on the other attributes.
Unless the Mage-Killing Gun and Undead-Killing Sword is literally useless on anything else - that'd just suck and encourage save scumming and looking poo poo up on wikis.

DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 26, 2013

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

DatonKallandor posted:

Actually the unlimited out-of-combat-stash and limited-in-combat-inventory is exactly the kind of environment where niche weapons are a good gameplay mechanic. When there is no out-of-combat inventory tax, having to decide between bringing the mage-killer gun or the silver anti-undead sword is awesome - especially when an inventory focused (Strength) Character doesn't have to choose in exchange for missing out on the other attributes.
Unless the Mage-Killing Gun and Undead-Killing Sword is literally useless on anything else - that'd just suck and encourage save scumming and looking poo poo up on wikis.

Yeah, the key is to make Str. be useful to allow for more per-encounter optimizing rather than just "You can't do jack poo poo to wizards and werewolves without carrying around junk", and simultaneously, to make that junk useful for more than just killing Wizards and Werewolves.

Also, in general, I'm of the opinion that "Able to gently caress up $Target" is a cool thing for a weapon type to have, but if it's the primary way said weapon is better than other weapons and not just Another Benefit, it gets to be just an annoying reason to play inventory tetris pretty fast.

I.E. I'm cool with guns being better at killing wizards, but there's got to be some other reason you'd want to use guns against lots of other targets or they suck. And it can't just be that guns are really good at killing wizards and as good as your other weapons (or worse yet, not as good, but good enough) against everything else. And similarly, there ought to be some pretty good reasons why you'd not want to use guns.

Hand Row
May 28, 2001
I got the impression that guns have big spike damage versus other ranged (which have better rates of fire). So not only will they pass through wizards shields, they will really mess them up.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
From what I understand guns have an initial shot that can gently caress anyone up pretty well (high damage, relatively low accuracy), but after that first shot it takes awhile to reload, so you probably only want to use it once a battle and switch to something else. Its distinction with loving up wizards is that very few other methods get around their short-duration nigh-invulnerable Arcane Veil spell, so it's especially handy to keep a blunderbuss shot (or whatever) in your back pocket in case wizards try to stall.

Dr Subterfuge fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 26, 2013

DancingShade
Jul 26, 2007

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 25 days!)

If we have guns as a desirable weapon to use then I demand the ability to parry bullets with nothing more than my fist as a monk.

Because meditation, secret ways, inner chi, etc.

Better yet, make the skill "bullet eater" so you can catch them with your face instead. Perhaps also make it improvable so this isn't instantly fatal?

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

A pistol show would increase a monk's wound so much that he can probably use his instakill power on the shooter immediately. Monks will still have that ability, right? I think you can kill dragons with it in Baldur's Gate 2.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Dr Subterfuge posted:

From what I understand guns have an initial shot that can gently caress anyone up pretty well (high damage, relatively low accuracy), but after that first shot it takes awhile to reload, so you probably only want to use it once a battle and switch to something else. Its distinction with loving up wizards is that very few other methods get around their short-duration nigh-invulnerable Arcane Veil spell, so it's especially handy to keep a blunderbuss shot (or whatever) in your back pocket in case wizards try to stall.
Arcane Veil is an instant-use 1/encounter wizard ability that bumps up the wizard's Deflection by a huge amount for about 10 seconds. It's typically used in two circumstances: 1) the fight is starting and arrows/quarrels/spell missiles are flying 2) melee marauders are on you and you need to hold your ground or desperately try to disengage.

Guns do ignore the Deflection bonus provided by AV, but their primary usefulness comes from their good armor penetration and their potential for big damage. Follow-up shots take a long time, so in some battles, that weapon set is only useful for the initial volley and then characters have to rely on their other set(s) for whatever they need. The other problem with all guns is that they have small but significant Accuracy penalties.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

The MSJ posted:

A pistol show would increase a monk's wound so much that he can probably use his instakill power on the shooter immediately. Monks will still have that ability, right? I think you can kill dragons with it in Baldur's Gate 2.

Time to shoot your own monk to power him up.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012

rope kid posted:

Arcane Veil is an instant-use 1/encounter wizard ability that bumps up the wizard's Deflection by a huge amount for about 10 seconds. It's typically used in two circumstances: 1) the fight is starting and arrows/quarrels/spell missiles are flying 2) melee marauders are on you and you need to hold your ground or desperately try to disengage.

Guns do ignore the Deflection bonus provided by AV, but their primary usefulness comes from their good armor penetration and their potential for big damage. Follow-up shots take a long time, so in some battles, that weapon set is only useful for the initial volley and then characters have to rely on their other set(s) for whatever they need. The other problem with all guns is that they have small but significant Accuracy penalties.

Out of interest, what is the niche for crossbows in PoE?

An intermediate point between guns and bows, or even more slow and damaging than guns?

DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."
Might be interesting if the PoE universe had invented guns so quickly, they didn't get to the crossbow stage. Skip straight from Bow to Gunpowder? Certainly would make weapon balancing easier.

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.


VanSandman posted:

Time to shoot your own monk to power him up.

If your monk shoots himself in the head, he can summon a powerful mythological figure to fight for him.

Octo1
May 7, 2009
Playing IWD2 is reminding me of how much I hate scripted scenes where NPCs initiate conversation with my hidden/invisible character. Please don't let this happen in Eternity, just let me scout in peace.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

CottonWolf posted:

In Eternity, based on what little we know about them, their anime-esque burning spirits are so committed to the cause that they literally generate energy to burn people with. It doesn't come from the gods.
Yes. All paladins are extremely devoted to one cause or organization. Some of these organizations are religious, like the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr (Eothasian). Others are political, like the Brotherhood of the Five Suns (Vailian Republics). Some are just extremely devoted to a rigid way of living/working/existing, like the Goldpact Knights (essentially mercenary paladins). Paladins gain their powers from their extraordinary devotion, regardless of what their particular cause may be. Priests tend to be more philosophical, introspective, and nuanced in how they think about/approach things. Paladins don't generally heavily emphasize self-sacrifice for its own sake, but much more than priests, paladins believe that "the cause" is more important than they are -- though they often disagree with how to best help their causes.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

SurrealityCheck posted:

Out of interest, what is the niche for crossbows in PoE?

An intermediate point between guns and bows, or even more slow and damaging than guns?
They're pretty much an intermediate between the two, yeah. Regular crossbows are slower to reload/fire than hunting bows or war bows but they do more damage and have better penetration. Arbalests are slower than regular crossbows but faster than guns and have a commensurate increase in damage and penetration over a crossbow. The main difference between the two is that standard crossbows can be cocked by hand and arbalests need to be planted and cranked.

This is not entirely historically accurate, but it gives them a good intermediate position.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012

rope kid posted:

They're pretty much an intermediate between the two, yeah. Regular crossbows are slower to reload/fire than hunting bows or war bows but they do more damage and have better penetration. Arbalests are slower than regular crossbows but faster than guns and have a commensurate increase in damage and penetration over a crossbow. The main difference between the two is that standard crossbows can be cocked by hand and arbalests need to be planted and cranked.

This is not entirely historically accurate, but it gives them a good intermediate position.

Any thoughts on special ammo types, or to be determined?

I loved the concept of the special ammo in BG/BG2 but loathed the implementation.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

We're trying to avoid going nuts with special ammo types but we haven't designed them yet.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

SoggyBobcat posted:

Can wizards and whatnot make use of a paladin's passive buffs? If so, arming one with a firearm and putting him/her in the rear with the squishies might have some benefit.
This can be extremely beneficial/a good idea depending on party composition, the paladin's auras, and the circumstances of the battle (enemies + environment).

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012

rope kid posted:

We're trying to avoid going nuts with special ammo types but we haven't designed them yet.

Might I put in a vote for making the "baseline" ones weapon upgrades/quivers (the equivalent of the boring bolts +1/+2), with the more interesting ones (exploding arrows, sticky arrows, what have you) as at the very least craftable if limited in supply?

I suppose having them cost strength points to lug around could help avoid the "archer with 1231232 special arrows" situation, even if it's a bit goofy. It's good to have situations where the player can feel like a clever fellow for remembering his arrows of mustard jelly slaying, but I definitely think that the rarer arrow types felt too expensive to use for their own good.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

rope kid posted:

Yes. All paladins are extremely devoted to one cause or organization. Some of these organizations are religious, like the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr (Eothasian). Others are political, like the Brotherhood of the Five Suns (Vailian Republics). Some are just extremely devoted to a rigid way of living/working/existing, like the Goldpact Knights (essentially mercenary paladins).

Of course, some of the most powerful Paladins champion lesser known causes, including:

The Glorious Burning Heart of the Holy Order of Civic Sanitation
The Sacred Sisterhood of the Sewing Circle
The Monks of Long Division
The Shining Swords of the Greater Defiance Bay Area Charity for Stray Cats

EDIT: Woe betide those who prey on the strays of Defiance Bay. Justice comes for you... :black101:

Grundulum
Feb 28, 2006
On modding: I thought I remembered reading something to the effect that PoE would have tilesets like Morrowind did. (That made creating new content really really easy.) How does this square with the use of hand-painted backgrounds like I've seen paraded around the internet and in this thread? Am mistaken or thinking of a different game?

DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."

rope kid posted:

We're trying to avoid going nuts with special ammo types but we haven't designed them yet.

Infinite "base" ammo and limited special ammo always seemed like great way to go whenever a game used it. Having to buy basic ammo for your ranged weapons sucks and is tedious, but loading in that awesome limited supply knock-out shot is awesome.

I'd make special ammo un-sellable though - just to make people more likely to use them.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012

DatonKallandor posted:

I'd make special ammo un-sellable though - just to make people more likely to use them.

Oooh, good idea. That certainly helps the feeling of firing money at people. Or maybe slowly regenerate on rest/per encounter? Although I suppose that's a little too similar to spells.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Grundulum posted:

On modding: I thought I remembered reading something to the effect that PoE would have tilesets like Morrowind did. (That made creating new content really really easy.) How does this square with the use of hand-painted backgrounds like I've seen paraded around the internet and in this thread? Am mistaken or thinking of a different game?
No, no tilesets in the typical sense of the term. Our artists have asset libraries they can recombine in a variety of ways, but they are not grid-based tilesets and they exist entirely in Maya.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012

rope kid posted:

No, no tilesets in the typical sense of the term. Our artists have asset libraries they can recombine in a variety of ways, but they are not grid-based tilesets and they exist entirely in Maya.

Do you have backgrounds and then you block in the actual level collision geometry from invisible primitives?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

The 3D levels are not used to directly generate the collision geometry. That (and the walk mesh) are created separately.

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)

rope kid posted:

We're trying to avoid going nuts with special ammo types but we haven't designed them yet.

The first DLC: Glanfathan Gun Runner's Arsenal.

Fuschia tude
Dec 26, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

SurrealityCheck posted:

Might I put in a vote for making the "baseline" ones weapon upgrades/quivers (the equivalent of the boring bolts +1/+2), with the more interesting ones (exploding arrows, sticky arrows, what have you) as at the very least craftable if limited in supply?

I suppose having them cost strength points to lug around could help avoid the "archer with 1231232 special arrows" situation, even if it's a bit goofy. It's good to have situations where the player can feel like a clever fellow for remembering his arrows of mustard jelly slaying, but I definitely think that the rarer arrow types felt too expensive to use for their own good.

SurrealityCheck posted:

Oooh, good idea. That certainly helps the feeling of firing money at people. Or maybe slowly regenerate on rest/per encounter? Although I suppose that's a little too similar to spells.

Put the enchantment on the quiver, not on the arrows. Only restockable in town (while supplies last), or with crafting.

Clever Spambot
Sep 16, 2009

You've lost that lovin' feeling,
Now it's gone...gone...
GONE....

DatonKallandor posted:

I'd make special ammo un-sellable though - just to make people more likely to use them.

I almost never used them in the infinity engine games but that was entirely because it was a massive hassle to change ammo types because you had to enter the inventory which paused the action. As long as its given some sort of quick-slot or you can change ammo by right clicking the weapon on the action bar or something that is easy I will use them all the time.

They should be sellable/buyable though.

This is all assuming they are interesting magical arrows that explode/debuff/status effect or whatever and not just dumb +1 arrows.

Sea Otter
Oct 9, 2012

rope kid posted:

Guns do ignore the Deflection bonus provided by AV, but their primary usefulness comes from their good armor penetration and their potential for big damage. Follow-up shots take a long time, so in some battles, that weapon set is only useful for the initial volley and then characters have to rely on their other set(s) for whatever they need. The other problem with all guns is that they have small but significant Accuracy penalties.
Might this encourage some players to reload immediately after a failed gunshot at the start of a combat? The same can be said about powerful soul abilities but considering the failure rate and possible rare ammo usage...

rope kid posted:

No, no tilesets in the typical sense of the term. Our artists have asset libraries they can recombine in a variety of ways, but they are not grid-based tilesets and they exist entirely in Maya.
Does this mean the increase of assets for modding, too, if the possible new stretch goal is achieved? Also, how much would the usability of these assets be? In NWN2, quite many people found the toolset hard to use. BTW, if I sound skeptic, it simply means my expectation is high. Otherwise, how should have I pledged on this project in the first place?

SurrealityCheck posted:

Oooh, good idea. That certainly helps the feeling of firing money at people. Or maybe slowly regenerate on rest/per encounter? Although I suppose that's a little too similar to spells.
Maybe, how about limiting the number of ammo in stash/personal inventories in a way or another (effective but bulky ammo, for example)? At the earlier stage of the game, money can be also a drawback, though.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Sea Otter posted:

Might this encourage some players to reload immediately after a failed gunshot at the start of a combat? The same can be said about powerful soul abilities but considering the failure rate and possible rare ammo usage...
It could, but gunshots aren't that powerful. In general, single attacks from any source are not so gnarly that your entire combat success would hinge on them.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

rope kid posted:

It could, but gunshots aren't that powerful. In general, single attacks from any source are not so gnarly that your entire combat success would hinge on them.

My inner Scythe Weaponmaster is displeased :colbert:

(gently caress my inner Scythe Weaponmaster)

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

Sea Otter posted:

Might this encourage some players to reload immediately after a failed gunshot at the start of a combat?
You cant design around those people any more than you can worry about OCD hoarders.




Fintilgin posted:

The Monks of Long Division
A constant mumbling of math during battle like Dunes Mentats.

Sea Otter
Oct 9, 2012

rope kid posted:

It could, but gunshots aren't that powerful. In general, single attacks from any source are not so gnarly that your entire combat success would hinge on them.
Thank you for your quick reply-yeah, as expected for you, who don't forget about the importance of normalization in player choices. ;)

MartianAgitator
Apr 30, 2003

Damn Earth! Damn her!

DatonKallandor posted:

Oh yeah Crossbows were hated too - A Pope even banned them because it really let the poor gently caress up the rich.
I wonder if PoE is going to have extra armor penetration for crossbows.

Wikipedia tells me that pope also banned slings and bows, but all of them only against Christians, rather than some medieval class warfare. So [citation needed].

As to guns vs plate armor, yes, steel plate makes soft lead bullets ablate right off them. See conquistador armor: that seam in the middle is to make sure bullets slide off to the side. Most guns PE is probably using are going to ones that fire a single lead ball or grapeshot, which is basically shrapnel. Metal armor is going to stop those very well.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting
I cant find any clips showing the right section of the ep, but this show had some lab (lol 'lab') tests putting plate up against powder pistols and bluderbusses.

Pistols did not do so good. Blunderbuss made a lot of holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTgWx4EVZNA

edit:

Got closer: http://www.spike.com/video-clips/9ilc4c/deadliest-warrior-blunderbuss

quote:

In the show the blunderbuss proved highly effective against the Knight's plate armor and was able to penetrate through a layer of double plate armor multiple times when shot from close range. However there was at least one misfire during the testing when the weapon jammed and no shot was produced.

FRINGE fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Dec 27, 2013

Militant Lesbian
Oct 3, 2002

Please never use Deadliest Warrior as a source of citable information on anything, ever. Thank you.

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FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

HotCanadianChick posted:

Please never use Deadliest Warrior as a source of citable information on anything, ever. Thank you.
The live shots (as in blunderbuss) are worthy even if the narrative of the show is a joke.

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